Originally posted by helen670
Hi Miriam/
When you quote Scripture, it's all good.
Yes?
But when others do it, it's all made up ?
Can you please make up your mind!

thats because when i quote scripture, its relevant to the conversation. when you (not others) quote scriptures, its seems to be at random, drawing conclusion from things that arent there

And YET you haven't answered mu question...
where is Elijah and Enoch?
Why do I ask?
Well you did QUOTE about flesh and blood and I thought this would give you an answer to what you quoted me....or was that not your own work?

well they certainly arent in heaven like you seem to be eluding to.

Theotokos is not WORSHIPPED just as a mother does NOT worship her child of whom she may carry a picture of.
Theotokos is revered ...The Scriptures call her Blessed!
If you dont like what you see in Scripture,or what is written in there, then avoid it because you are in no authourity to make up your OWN version of what the Scriptures say.
You cannot PICK and choose.

your right, blessed does not mean worshipped. so then explain to me what part is "blessed when statues are made of her, when she is prayed to and invoked for favor.

mary is worshipped by the church, not "blessed"

Originally posted by silent thunder
*sigh*
All this bickering...cannot we agree that She is both beautiful and Transcendent? And bask in that for a bit?

What more do we need?

Yes I agree

Anyway it's too bad when innocent posts turn into arguments. Oh well...I guess it happens.

Any person within whom the word is recieved and bears fruit ie: parable of the sower, is like a Mary, so in that sense she is a model and an inspiration, but likewise it is the new life born which is the greatest thing, and it, not the vessel as the conduit, is what ought to be the focal point, and what is celebrated.

It is unbecoming to see so-called Christian believers arguing about her.

And there is a type of divine mother in us all, who embraces and cradles all life, a female yin of Big Heart of God, and there is no need to deny that part in favour of the masculin only, but the whole heart is in Christ, the fully integrated heart, and therein Mary is absorbed.

But there is no need to project Mary outwardly as some sort of "Queen of Heaven", and in fact, that would be a type of abomination, as would her embodiment in a statue as a material object of veneration, I think that's what some detest, the objectification of her, as a type of idol, or the projection of her, as a deity in her own right.

But we can appreciate and have a sympathetic harmonious connection with her, as a part of, the loving, compassionate, nurturing heart of God, which lives within, once the truth is recieved and appropriated, or germinated.

But if it was fully "grokked" this immaculate heart of Mary, then certain people would not be arguing with such scathing snarliness. There's no Mary or Christ in any of that.

And this may be the problem many have with "the Church" - that it would profess to somehow capture or contain God in a stained glass bottle of church doctrine and then extend that only as an exclusive proposition, condemning any who do not agree, or who reside outside of the doctrine. But there can be no such limitations placed on God.

At it's heart, I suspect the Mary doctrine of the RCC may be actually rooted in the esoteric/exoteric expression of the sacred geometry of the seed of life, as the Vesica Pisces seen depicted in the Vatican, through which Jesus Christ emerges as the fruit of the womb of life. The only problem with this, is it makes it appear as if Mary is the precursor to Jesus and precedes him.

And for for those of us Christians who are familiar with Isis/Osiris-Horus and the Babylonian Queen of Heaven mythology, along with what the Bible teaches regarding these things - we can't help but shudder at the extreme elevation of Mary within the RCC, and I think it's understandable how that might get some people's hackles up a bit because it is disturbing in a way, the mere possibility of the mirror image interpretation which COULD be made regarding her true identity in the pantheon of statues at the Vatican.

[edit on 7-7-2009 by OmegaPoint]

I think that the only people who believe that Mary, mother of Jesus, or statues of her, are worshiped must be non-Catholics.

Catholics do not worship Mary or statues. Read again what Helen has said.

If you want to know what Catholics believe why not ask a Catholic instead of some one who, for his/her own reasons, want you to believe that Catholics worship statues.

Originally posted by Mahree
I think that the only people who believe that Mary, mother of Jesus, or statues of her, are worshiped must be non-Catholics.

Catholics do not worship Mary or statues. Read again what Helen has said.

If you want to know what Catholics believe why not ask a Catholic instead of some one who, for his/her own reasons, want you to believe that Catholics worship statues.

ok then explain it.

- how is making a statue of her NOT worshiping her?

exodus 20:[4] Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:

lev 26:[1] Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the LORD your God.

- then after making the statue, you pray to it....

exodus 20:[5] Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

- in the prayer, you ask mary to intercede for you

1 timothy 2:[5] For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

hearing people say that mary is "revered" not "worshiped" is like saying you are "wine enthusiast" when you are really a drunkard

Originally posted by miriam0566

ok then explain it.

- how is making a statue of her NOT worshiping her?

exodus 20:[4] Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:

lev 26:[1] Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the LORD your God.

- then after making the statue, you pray to it....

exodus 20:[5] Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

covenant

You have a very "bible-based" view of Christianity. Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy also allow for change and tradition.

In Marian art, if I understand, one uses the image as an aide to reach the divine. One is not "praying to the the image," but perhaps more like "through" the image. The same is true of Russian Orthodox icons. They are like windows into the sacred. The worshipper prays to the REALITY behind the image.

It is my belief that faith changes with the time and if you truly walk with God, He doesn't care all that much about how you walk with Him.

As for the quotes above, they are Old Testament (Exodus, Levitus). My understanding is that Christ brought a new covenant that did away with the absolute authority of the Old. Otherwise we'd still be slaughtering animal sacrifices and anointing alters with their fat. As far as I'm concerned, relying on Old Testament scripture is a dangerous game at best.

My 2 cents....peace...



[edit on 7/17/09 by silent thunder]

Originally posted by miriam0566

Originally posted by Mahree

ok then explain it.

- how is making a statue of her NOT worshiping her?

exodus 20:[4] Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:

I believe if you continue to read exodus you would find the following verses which give an example about which exodus 20 was speaking. The people had Aaron make them a statue out of gold and they worshiped and sacrificed because they believed the molten calf was god.

exodus 32: 2-5 And Aaron said to them, "Take off the rings of gold which are in the ears of your wives, your sons, and your daughters, and bring them to me." So all the people took off the rings of gold which were in their ears, and brought them to Aaron. And he received the gold at their hand, and fashioned it with a graving tool, and made a molten calf: and they said, "These are your gods, O Israel, who brought you up out of the land of Egypt!"

We have many statues of famous and not so famous people and I don't think anyone believes they are worshiped. You don't even seem to be saying that anyone believes that the statue of Mary is actually her.

When we see statues of people we remember them. We think of their lives, or what they have done or why we need to remember them. It is the same thing with the statues of Mary.

- then after making the statue, you pray to it....

exodus 20:[5] Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

Yes, some kneel in front of the statues, but they are not kneeling to the statues, they are remembering Mary and are honoring her as the Mother of God. Their thoughts are on the real Mary, not on the statue.

- in the prayer, you ask mary to intercede for you

1 timothy 2:[5] For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

We do ask the Mother of Jesus to intercede for us. If I ask you to pray for me, do you think that is wrong. There are so many prayer lines all over the world of people praying prayers of intercession. Why do you think that asking the mother of Jesus to pray for us is any different?

hearing people say that mary is "revered" not "worshiped" is like saying you are "wine enthusiast" when you are really a drunkard

I am going to ignore your last quote.

I hope that I have answered your questions. Perhaps asking a Catholic what Catholics believe will make sense to you.

[edit on 7/17/2009 by Mahree]

Do I need to elaborate any further?

Originally posted by silent thunder
In Marian art, if I understand, one uses the image as an aide to reach the divine. One is not "praying to the the image," but perhaps more like "through" the image. The same is true of Russian Orthodox icons. They are like windows into the sacred. The worshipper prays to the REALITY behind the image.

israelites did the same thing.

exodus 32:[4] And he received them at their hand, and fashioned it with a graving tool, after he had made it a molten calf: and they said, These be thy gods, O Israel, which brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.
[5] And when Aaron saw it, he built an altar before it; and Aaron made proclamation, and said, To morrow is a feast to the LORD.
[6] And they rose up early on the morrow, and offered burnt offerings, and brought peace offerings; and the people sat down to eat and to drink, and rose up to play.

the calf wasnt some unknown god. it represented Jehovah. they even referenced it bringing them out of egypt.

what was the result?

[27] And he said unto them, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbour.
[28] And the children of Levi did according to the word of Moses: and there fell of the people that day about three thousand men.

It is my belief that faith changes with the time and if you truly walk with God, He doesn't care all that much about how you walk with Him.

if that were true, why would we have example after example in the bible of people who "walk" with god and people who dont? why would he go through all that trouble to show us a pattern if it didnt matter?

As for the quotes above, they are Old Testament (Exodus, Levitus). My understanding is that Christ brought a new covenant that did away with the absolute authority of the Old. Otherwise we'd still be slaughtering animal sacrifices and anointing alters with their fat. As far as I'm concerned, relying on Old Testament scripture is a dangerous game at best.

your right, the mosaic law was done away with but god standards dont change. (mal 3:6)

the matter of who we worship is an important one

Originally posted by Mahree
I believe if you continue to read exodus you would find the following verses which give an example about which exodus 20 was speaking. The people had Aaron make them a statue out of gold and they worshiped and sacrificed because they believed the molten calf was god.

exodus 32: 2-5 And Aaron said to them, "Take off the rings of gold which are in the ears of your wives, your sons, and your daughters, and bring them to me." So all the people took off the rings of gold which were in their ears, and brought them to Aaron. And he received the gold at their hand, and fashioned it with a graving tool, and made a molten calf: and they said, "These are your gods, O Israel, who brought you up out of the land of Egypt!"

verse 5 says

[5] And when Aaron saw it, he built an altar before it; and Aaron made proclamation, and said, To morrow is a feast to the LORD.

LORD is a marker that replaces "Jehovah" in the original manuscripts. they were still worshipping GOD. but they were doing so through the calf. and they died for it.

im not sure how much clearer this could be

We have many statues of famous and not so famous people and I don't think anyone believes they are worshiped. You don't even seem to be saying that anyone believes that the statue of Mary is actually her.

it doesnt matter if you think the statue is her or that it represents her. both constitute idol worship.

worshippers of baal didnt believe that the statues were actually the god, they believed that it represented baal. it was still forbidden for the israelites.

Yes, some kneel in front of the statues, but they are not kneeling to the statues, they are remembering Mary and are honoring her as the Mother of God. Their thoughts are on the real Mary, not on the statue.

still idolatry. that AND nowhere does it say we are to ask mary for anything. infact, saint worshipped is not biblically supported either. so im not sure where people get the idea that its ok to ask for mary for anything.

We do ask the Mother of Jesus to intercede for us. If I ask you to pray for me, do you think that is wrong. There are so many prayer lines all over the world of people praying prayers of intercession. Why do you think that asking the mother of Jesus to pray for us is any different?

because its different to ask someone to pray for you, than it is to pray to mary to pray for you.

every single example of prayer jesus gave us has ALWAYS 100% of the time been directed to god. not once are we told to direct prayers to jesus or anyone else. ALWAYS to GOD. it is jesus that mediates those prayers or "delivers them" you can say, but we are never even to direct the prayers to him!

its different because it involves a prayer, a prayer that should not be directed to anyone but god.