The Virgin Mary

Discuss.

I'm kind of obsessed with this figure for reasons I can't really articulate. Especially all the beautiful renaissance madonna-and-child paintings, the amazing Eastern Orthodox icons, and so. I see such beauty in these things and they are both quintessentially female and yet for me (as a healthy red-blooded male) it evokes a supreme beauty that totally transcends the sexual...such thoughts dont even vaguely enter my mind when I view this kind of art or contemplate this figure, which is in itself kind of an amazing thing in itself if you think of it...the figure utterly transcends earthly and bodily sexulaity and yet retains a profoundly femine manifestation of perfection and beauty.

I guess we just need a fomal goddess in our religion and don't have it so she takes on many of those roles...

I also find Marian mysticism down through the ages pretty fascinating and profound, as well as extremely mysterious. Logically, they have to jump through a bunch of hoops givin the virgin birth, the immaculate conception, etc. But the best writing on the subject isn't the heavy theological/logical stuff...its the amazing devotional poetry and writing surrounding this figure, and the very unique way Christian mystics of various sorts have imagined her.

I know protestants are naturally suspicious of Marian devotion...excessive Marianism is an old Protestant complaint about the Catholics...but I love the way the Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, and other churches (coptic, Syrian, etc.) have such rich histories of devotion to Mary.

As there is no conspiracy here, this thread might find a better home in BTS.

Eric

Originally posted by silent thunder
I guess we just need a fomal goddess in our religion and don't have it so she takes on many of those roles...

virgin worship has its roots in babylon, and is practiced today in nearly identical form. it actually has little to do with christianity


www.geocities.com...

don't you find it interesting that the virgin Mary is always depicted as a white caucasian. If she had of been born in the middle east. She would surely have more middle eastern features, rather than western features?

Originally posted by EricD
As there is no conspiracy here, this thread might find a better home in BTS.

Eric

Actually I meant to put this into "Psychology, Philosophy and Metaphysics" on ATS rather than "conspiracies in religion." So it is my mistake and technically you are absolutely right. If this thread is moved, it is my hope it will be moved to the aforementioned forum rather than BTS...

Originally posted by miriam0566

Originally posted by silent thunder
I guess we just need a fomal goddess in our religion and don't have it so she takes on many of those roles...

virgin worship has its roots in babylon, and is practiced today in nearly identical form. it actually has little to do with christianity


www.geocities.com...

Yes, I agree, I suppose you are talking about Inanna (sumeria), Ishtar (Babylon) and perhpas the Anat/Baal setup among the Canaanites...then there is the whole Isis-Osirus thing...all of these predate Christianity by a long time. Pretty fascinating stuff, too...spent several months recently going through Mesopotamian mythology and I sense I've barely scratched the surface.

But The Virgin Mary is how I know Her, and even leaving aside the rest of it all and her possible earlier incarnations, Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Marianism is fascinating and profound in its own right.

Originally posted by woodwardjnr
don't you find it interesting that the virgin Mary is always depicted as a white caucasian. If she had of been born in the middle east. She would surely have more middle eastern features, rather than western features?

Check out Coptic Christian (Ethopian) art...people in that art in general have a darker look. There are some totally Asian Madonna-and-child pictures done in China and Japan as well...

Originally posted by silent thunder
But The Virgin Mary is how I know Her, and even leaving aside the rest of it all and her possible earlier incarnations, Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Marianism is fascinating and profound in its own right.

some of us strive to get what we want out of worship. to me personally, its just another idol.

Originally posted by woodwardjnr
the virgin Mary is always depicted as a white caucasian.

That's not true. If you go to Japan she's usually shown as asian. If you go though Mexico she looks Mexican. Our Lady of Guadalupe appeared to Juan Diego, and was imprinted upon his tilma, as looking Spanish/Indian. Each culture depicts those figures as looking like their own culture and usually not historically accurate.

Originally posted by silent thunder
the immaculate conception,

Just so folks know (somoene usually gets it wrong), the Immaculate Conception refers to MARY's CONCEPTION. It has nothing to do with Christ's conception. It is Mary being conceived without original sin - preserved from the stain of original sin. That's what it refers to.

reply to post by miriam0566


Hi miriam/

What one may call 'virgin worship' another calls Intercessor!
There is a DIFFERENCE!

Lack of knowledge as to what Theotokos stands for, is why so many people never truly understand the Beauty and Blessed of the Theotokos!
\
ICXC NIKA
helen

reply to post by silent thunder


Hi silent/

The virgin Mary also known to Eastern Orthodox as Theotokos...God-bearer.
Where can the Theotokos be found ?
The angel Gabriel greets her as,
"full of grace,
blessed among women." (Lk 1:28)
The Lord is truly with her,
as his use of the Hebrew salutation confesses.
She ponders what God does in her heart, not just at this tumultuous moment, but all through her life. (Lk 1:29, 2:19,51,
11:28,13:20, 14:11, Acts 1:14)
Elizabeth's praise of Mary "blessed art thou among women" and "who am I that the mother of my Lord would visit me?" in Luke 2 are also cited, among other passages of Scripture.
Theotokos willed obedience is contrasted with Eve's disobedience, an idea with roots in the writings of the Church Fathers.
Theotokos is also called ..The Second Eve...
Eve...disobeyed the Word of God.
Mary...was obedient to the Word of God....''Shall call me Blessed'' in Scripture...Mary "has found favor with God" (Luke 1:30)
With Humility and faith in God..."Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word."..She did the WILL of God.
Adam ...the First man.
Jesus Christ ...The Second Adam....eg/The second man is the Lord from heaven" (1 Cor. 15:47)
We know and understand from Scripture that Jesus Christ was..."not of the will of the flesh,
nor of the will of man,
but of God" (John 1:13)...
In prayer///Most Holy Theotokos is a helper
not in the sense of the eternal salvation found only through Christ,
but in the sense that those drowning call out to those on dry land for assistance in their plight."
Therefore the Lord Himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a Virgin shall conceive, and bear a Son, and shall call his name Immanuel,” which means: God is with us (Isaiah 7:14).
“Take counsel together,
and it shall come to naught; speak the word, and it shall not stand: for God is with us (Immanuel)” (Isaiah 8:10).
In the next chapter Isaiah speaks of the characteristics of the Child Immanuel: “For unto us a child is born,
unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful,
Counselor,
The mighty God,
The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace” (Is. 9:6...Prophecy fullfilled..
Prophecy Old Testament

it evokes a supreme beauty that totally transcends the sexual...such thoughts dont even vaguely enter my mind when I view this kind of art or contemplate this figure, which is in itself kind of an amazing thing in itself if you think of it...

And so Many of Ancient Christianity hold this of the Blessed Theotokos!
''And during all her time there,
the maiden stood alongside Christ the King,
'at his right hand,
splendidly robed in a robe of gold,'
as the prophet says 'Listen,
daughter,
and see,
and incline thine ear; forget thy people and thy father's house.
The King greatly desireth thy beauty; he is thy Lord -- pay homage to Him' (PSALM. 44:10-13).
Theoteknos, Bishop of Livias, And Encomium on the Assumption of the Holy Mother of God.
Gleanings~Sayings of Ancient Christianity!~

ICXC NIKA
helen

Originally posted by helen670
What one may call 'virgin worship' another calls Intercessor!
There is a DIFFERENCE!

yes, im familiar with this line of reasoning. you says she prays for you.

problem is, jesus is the mediator, not mary. if mary was in fact an "intercessor", then people should defiantly NOT be worshipping her.

you call it by different names to justify it, but its still the same golden calf

reply to post by miriam0566


Hi Miriam/

You are wrong!

Saints are known to be mediators as well.
It is from the Old Testament....
It is found in the New Testament.
It is found in the LOGOS of God.
It is truth as Scripture testifies this to be true.
The Word of God does not LIE!

We dont WORSHIP but we ask for their help in our HUMBLE souls,for we are not worthy to heard...we also can dircetly pray to the Lord.
We pray the Lords Prayer,
Our Father who is in heaven,hallowed be thy name....
It is the prayer that God Himself showed to the Apostles...
All Scripture testifies of Prayers that were heard from the Old Testament KINGS and PROPHETS!
God is of the LIVING.
Therefore all WHO have died, have also resurrected with the Lord Jesus Christ our God,Saviour.
Death has been "swallowed up in victory" (1 Corinthians 15:54).
Jesus' words in Luke 20:37, 38, where He states....
: "But even Moses showed in the burning bush passage that the dead are raised,
when he called the Lord 'the God of Abraham,
the God of Isaac,
and the God of Jacob.
' For He is not the God of the dead but of the living, for all live to Him".
The parable of the rich man and Lazarus (Luke 16:19-31),
in which Jesus relates the conversation of Abraham,
in Paradise, with the deceased rich man whose soul has descended into Hades.
Jesus' promise to the thief on the cross: "Today you will be with Me in Paradise" (Luke 23:43)...Too many to list!


Finally,The Book of the APOCALYPSE...a BOOK of the Future!
How Great are the saints in heaven,
before the Great Tribulation,
being very active indeed-falling on their faces in worship before the throne of God,
casting their crowns to the King of Glory,
singing His praises,
and speaking to Him (Revelation 4:4, 10, 11; 5:8-10, 13; 6:9-11; 7:9-12).

Theotokos being the one who gave birth to the WORD, how then NOT we should humbly ask for her intercession?


ICXC NIKA
helen

Originally posted by helen670
Saints are known to be mediators as well.
It is from the Old Testament....
It is found in the New Testament.
It is found in the LOGOS of God.
It is truth as Scripture testifies this to be true.
The Word of God does not LIE!

care to cite some scriptures that actually say this? the scriptures you quoted have little to do with this subject

LET THE BIBLE SPEAK FOR ITSELF

Was Mary the Mother of God?

“Therefore the child to be born will be called holy, the Son of God [not God].”—Luke 1:35.

Was Mary Born Without Sin?

“If a woman conceives, and bears a male child, then she shall be unclean seven days; . . . And when the days of her purifying are completed, . . . she shall bring to the priest at the door of the tent of meeting a lamb . . . And if she cannot afford a lamb, then she shall take two turtledoves or two young pigeons, one for a burnt offering and the other for a sin offering; and the priest shall make atonement for her, and she shall be clean.” (Lev. 12:2, 6, 8) “And when the time came for their purification according to the law of Moses, they [Joseph and Mary] brought him [Jesus] up to Jerusalem to present him to the Lord . . . and to offer a sacrifice according to what is said in the law of the Lord, ‘a pair of turtledoves, or two young pigeons [one as a burnt offering, the other as a sin offering for Mary].’”—Luke 2:22, 24.

Did Mary Remain a Virgin After Jesus’ Birth?

“He [Joseph] took his wife, but knew her not [“had not had intercourse with her”—Catholic Jerusalem Bible] until she had borne a son; and he called his name Jesus.”—Matt. 1:24, 25.

Did Mary have other children after the birth of Jesus?

“She gave birth to her first-born son and wrapped him in swaddling cloths.” (Luke 2:7) “Is not this the carpenter’s son? Is not his mother called Mary? And are not his brethren [Greek: adelphoi, “brothers,” not syngenēs, “kinsfolk” or “cousins”] James and Joseph and Simon and Judas? And are not all his sisters with us?”—Matt. 13:55, 56.

By “Brothers,” Could the Bible Be Referring to Jesus’ Disciples, His Spiritual Brothers?

“After this he went down to Capernaum, with his mother and his brethren and his disciples.” (John 2:12) “So his brethren said to him, ‘Leave here and go to Judea, that your disciples may see the works you are doing.’ For even his brethren did not believe in him.”—John 7:3, 5.

Was Mary’s Physical Body Taken to Heaven?

“So it is with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable, what is raised is imperishable. It is sown a physical body, it is raised a spiritual body. I tell you this, brethren: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God.”—1 Cor. 15:42, 44, 50.

Should Prayers Be Addressed to Mary?

“Jesus said to him, ‘I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but by me. Whatever you ask in my name, I will do it, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.’”—John 14:6, 13.

Is Veneration of Mary Idolatry?

BECAUSE religion has so much sentiment associated with it many persons shrink from discussing it. But such is a mistake, for how can we be certain we have the truth if we refuse to make comparisons? Rather, we should be willing to do as the apostle Paul counsels: “Test all things; hold fast that which is good.”—1 Thess. 5:21, CB.

Of course, if religious discussion is to be profitable and enlightening, it must be done in a calm, dispassionate, objective manner. We must be willing to reason on the subject in the light of the Scriptures. And especially is this the case when discussing such a controversial subject as, Is veneration of Mary a form of idolatry?—Isa. 1:18.

Catholic theologians emphatically deny that the veneration of Mary is a form of idolatry, insisting that the veneration they accord Mary is not the particular kind of worship they render to God; their “devotion to the Blessed Virgin” is only a “relative” form of worship. Is that position Scriptural?

As Christians we are concerned with pleasing Jehovah God, and in view of his repeated warnings to the effect that he is a God “exacting exclusive devotion,” a “jealous God,” we must be careful lest we give any creature the devotion due only to the Creator. (Deut. 6:15, NW; Rom. 1:25) That it is easy to fall into the snare of idolatry is seen from the fact that Samuel charged King Saul with idolatry because he failed to obey Jehovah’s command. Both Paul and John warned Christians to avoid idolatry; not that these were deliberately giving another the worship due Jehovah, but that inasmuch as they attached undue importance to other persons or things they made for themselves idols.—Col. 3:5; 1 John 5:21.

The veneration of Mary is based on sentiment rather than on the Bible. It is, no doubt, due to man’s tendency to be sentimental regarding his mother and to idealize the virgin state. To the extent that Mary is given devotion and undue importance, to that extent veneration of her becomes idolatry. And Catholic theologians must be taxed with giving Mary undue importance. For example, in the Greek Scriptures we find but some fifty references to Mary, the mother of Jesus, but 1,750 references to Jesus Christ the Son, and 1,850 to God the Father. In fact, there is but a single reference to her in all the Acts of the apostles and she is ignored entirely in all the letters by Paul, James, Peter, Jude and John.

In striking contrast with all this we find in the Catholic Encyclopedia 22 pages devoted to Virgin Mary, but only 14 to God and only 11 to Jesus Christ. In other words, this Catholic authority gives Mary a relative importance 55 times as great as does the Bible in regard to God and 70 times as great in regard to Jesus Christ.

The veneration of Mary is based on the teaching of intercession by saints, regarding which there is nothing in the Scriptures. It developed gradually and was not extensively taught until the early part of the Middle Ages, from the fifth to the eighth century after Christ, nor fully developed until the later part of the Middle Ages, from the eleventh to the fifteenth century.

First in 1854 was “the immaculate conception of the Virgin Mary” made a dogma, and that in direct contradiction of the plain Scriptural teaching that all have sinned, that all are sinners, that none are righteous. (Rom. 3:10-12; 5:12) Nothing is said about Mary’s being an exception. Had she been sinless she could not have died a “natural” death.

And it was as late as 1950 that the pope called a secret consistory to vote on making the tradition that Mary had ascended into heaven in her human body a dogma of the church, the “Assumption”; also in direct contradiction of the Scriptures that plainly state: “Flesh and blood can obtain no part in the kingdom of God, neither shall corruption have any part in incorruption.” (1 Cor. 15:50, CB) The fact that some of the princes of the church voted “No” on this matter would seem to indicate that they are not thoroughly convinced that the pope is infallible in doctrine!

Indicating the trend to give Mary ever more importance are the words of John A. Flynn, president of Catholic St. John’s University in Brooklyn, New York. According to him it is not unlikely that Mary will be “proclaimed in a definition of doctrine as Co-Redemptrix of the human race, that next the dogma of Mediatrix of all graces may be promulgated, and that finally the definition of her queenship, as participation with her Son in the power of ruling the World, may be proclaimed. . . . It is likely that all three of these may come to realization before another century passes because the importance of Mary in the universe has come more and more to the fore.”—Time magazine, March 22, 1954.

CO-REDEMPTRIX, MEDEATRIX AND QUEEN?

Again we ask, what do the Scriptures say? Do they support Flynn’s position or do they indicate that such is a form of idolatry?

In introducing Jesus as “the Lamb of of God, who takes away the sin of the world,” John the Baptist said nothing about Jesus’ having a co-redemptrix. Nor did Jesus himself when he referred to his redemptive work: “The Son of Man has not come to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”—John 1:29; Matt. 20:28, CB.

Note also Peter’s unequivocal words in this matter. Referring to Christ Jesus he stated: “Neither is there salvation in any other. For there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved.” (Acts 4:12, CB) Those words do not allow for a co-redemptrix. Nor do Paul’s words at Romans 5:17-19 (CB). “For if by reason of the one man’s offense death reigned through the one man, much more will they who receive the abundance of the grace and of the gift of justice reign in life through one Jesus Christ. Therefore as from the offense of the one man the result was unto condemnation to all men, so from the justice of the one the result is unto justification of life to all men. For just as by the disobedience of one man the many were constituted sinners, so also by the obedience of one the many will be constituted just.” In fact, Paul’s entire argument regarding the redemptive work of Christ Jesus falls flat if we include Mary as a co-redemptrix. And further note that the great crowd which John saw in the Apocalyptic vision were saying: “Salvation belongs to our God, who sits upon the throne, and to the Lamb.” Again, not a word about salvation as also being due to Mary.—Rev. 7:10, CB.

And what about Mary’s being the “Mediatrix of all graces”? We are told that “there is one God, and one Mediator between God and men, himself man, Christ Jesus, who gave himself a ransom for all.” (1 Tim. 2:5, 6, CB) Jesus himself stated that “no one comes to the Father but through me.” John tells of only Jesus’ being “an advocate with the Father.” The law covenant between God and the nation of Israel did not need a mediatrix, neither does the new covenant which replaced it. Time and again Jesus is termed the mediator of the new covenant but nowhere do we read of a mediatrix of that covenant.—John 14:6; 1 John 2:1.

And finally we ask, Do the Scriptures support the claim Mary will participate “with her Son in the power of ruling the World”? After his resurrection Jesus stated that “all power in heaven and on earth has been given to me.” (Matt. 28:18, CB) He said nothing about his mother’s ruling with him. David, Isaiah, Daniel and others foretold Christ’s glorious reign but nowhere did they indicate that he will have his mother as a co-queen. Paul states that Christ will reign until all things are made subject to his feet, and that this “all things” includes all except Jehovah God. Included therefore is his mother Mary; she will also be subject to him, not reigning as co-queen. Sharing Christ’s rule will be his bride, his church, not his mother.—Rev. 19:7, 8.

Nor can the Apocalyptic vision of a woman clothed with the sun be used to prove that Mary will be co-queen. (Rev. 12:1-6) That woman could not be Mary, for John’s vision applied to the future, and was given a hundred years after Mary had given birth to Jesus. (Rev. 1:1-3) That woman is God’s woman, his organization: “Jerusalem which is above” and “which is our mother.”—Gal. 4:26, CB.

Clearly in view of all the foregoing, the devotion and ever-increasing prominence accorded to Mary is in contradiction of the Scriptures and indicates that veneration of Mary is a form of idolatry.

im not speaking against the OP, if you choose the worship the mary, that is your choice and i respect that.

i just dont like it when people dont say it like it is. you cant worship mary and then claim you arent worshipping mary. its the hypocrisy of the church that gets to me

reply to post by miriam0566


Hi miriam/

Im sorry,
The scriptures you gave are what?
Theotokos was not from a virgin birth...both her parents were unable to conceive/have children and their humble prayers to God were heard.
The Theotokos was chosen amongst ALL women to be pure(virgin).
Joseph was an elderly man....who took her as his wife because the LAW of man required women to be married...according to Hebrew custom of the time, she could no longer stay at the Temple, but had to either return to her parents or marry...
Joseph .....An Angel appears 'Joseph, thou son of David,
fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit.
And she shall bring forth a son,
and thou shalt call His name JESUS,
for He shall save his people from their sins.'
Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,
'Behold, a Virgin shall be with child and shall bring forth a Son,
and they shall call his name Emmanuel,' (Isaiah 7: 14) which being interpreted is: 'God with us'" (Matt 1: 18-23).
Jesus Christ is God...God the Word(LOGOS) has become Incarnate, has become man (St. John 1:14).
For God says: 'I will dwell in them,
walk in them,
and I will be their God' (II Corinthians 6:16; Leviticus 16:12).
The Holy Scriptures likewise say: 'the souls of the righteous are in God's hand,
and death cannot lay hold of them' (Wisdom of Solomon 3:1).
For death is rather the sleep of Saints than their death.
Further: 'Precious in the sight of the Lord is the death of His Saints' (Psalm 119:6)....ARE they NOT with God?
This teaching is from Early Christianity.
It has the same teaching two thousand and so years later,why change it now?
'My soul doth magnify the Lord,
and my spirit rejoiceth in God my Saviour.
For He hath regarded the lowly state of His
handmaiden; for behold,
henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.
For He who is mighty
hath done great things for me,
and holy is His name.
And His mercy is on those who fear Him
from generation to generation'
Luke 1.46-50
Amen.


ICXC NIKA
helen

EDIT...Spelling.

[edit on 7/5/2009 by helen670]

reply to post by miriam0566


Hi miriam/
Are we now taking whole POSTS AS quotes ?
IS THAT YOUR ANSWER?
Ok!

Luke 2:7
7 καὶ ἔτεκεν τὸν υἱὸν αὐτῆς τὸν πρωτότοκον· καὶ ἐσπαργάνωσεν αὐτὸν καὶ ἀνέκλινεν αὐτὸν ἐν τῇ φάτνῃ, διότι οὐκ ἦν αὐτοῖς τόπος ἐν τῷ καταλύματι.
8 Καὶ ποιμένες ἦσαν ἐν τῇ χώρᾳ τῇ αὐτῇ ἀγραυλοῦντες καὶ φυλάσσοντες φυλακὰς τῆς νυκτὸς ἐπὶ τὴν ποίμνην αὐτῶν.
9 καὶ ἰδοὺ ἄγγελος Κυρίου ἐπέστη αὐτοῖς καὶ δόξα Κυρίου περιέλαμψεν αὐτούς, καὶ ἐφοβήθησαν φόβον μέγαν.
10 καὶ εἶπεν αὐτοῖς ὁ ἄγγελος· Μὴ φοβεῖσθε· ἰδοὺ γὰρ εὐαγγελίζομαι ὑμῖν χαρὰν μεγάλην ἥτις ἔσται παντὶ τῷ λαῷ,
11 ὅτι ἐτέχθη ὑμῖν σήμερον σωτὴρ ὅς ἐστιν Χριστὸς Κύριος ἐν πόλει Δαυῒδ.
12 καὶ τοῦτο ὑμῖν τὸ σημεῖον, εὑρήσετε βρέφος ἐσπαργανωμένον, κείμενον ἐν φάτνῃ.
13 καὶ ἐξαίφνης ἐγένετο σὺν τῷ ἀγγέλῳ πλῆθος στρατιᾶς οὐρανίου αἰνούντων τὸν Θεὸν καὶ λεγόντων·
14 Δόξα ἐν ὑψίστοις Θεῷ καὶ ἐπὶ γῆς εἰρήνη ἐν ἀνθρώποις εὐδοκία.

7 And she brought forth her firstborn son, and wrapped him in swaddling clothes, and laid him in a manger; because there was no room for them in the inn.
8 And there were in the same country shepherds abiding in the field, keeping watch over their flock by night.
9 And, lo, the angel of the Lord came upon them, and the glory of the Lord shone round about them: and they were sore afraid.
10 And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people.
11 For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.
12 And this shall be a sign unto you; Ye shall find the babe wrapped in swaddling clothes, lying in a manger.
13 And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God, and saying,
14 Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men.

I do not understand why you quoted all those quotes from Scripture?
What exactly was your point refering to?
They are taken in bits and pieces...are they your own or some web site?

The above I quoted is from Luke 2:7
This proves that Jesus Christ Is God...your point however, I dont understand?
You gave me one WHOLE QUOTE out of which web page?
Why can't you explain yourself?
SAINTS are not a NEW invention!
Saints are quoted in the OLD TESTAMENT!
PROPHETS and SAINTS are revered as such in the OLD TESTAMENT!

ANSWER me this?
Where is Elijah and Enoch?
Please, don't tell me they are taken away by U.F.O's!

ICXC NIKA
helen



[edit on 7/5/2009 by helen670]