Couple gets prison time for Internet obscenity

Here's a snippet:



Most of the entire episode is available online, but I won't post links because there is some graphic language. Just do some Googleing.


TA

[edit on 4-7-2009 by TheAssociate]

reply to post by mr-lizard

Seriously, the more i look at some parts of accepted norms, the more i can see us getting desensitized to what would have been shocking only ten or twenty years ago. I seriously think it's becoming a very ugly manifestation of the desires of our primal urges and it seems very little is sacred in a decadent society such as our own.

Can legislation be created that would rid us and society as a whole of our "primal urges"? I wonder how the war on drugs is going?

If we truly are interested in healing the "sicknesses" of our society shouldn't we focus on the causes and not the symptoms?



[edit on 5-7-2009 by harvib]

UMMM this was illegal. Max hardcore going to prison, and the couple in question. That is assuming the female being raped, ect et was CONSENTUAL with her. YEs, its sick an degrading, but so is ltos of aol porn..all that knida stuff can be found on aol, so why are they paying for it? It is way taboo, a woman and a snake, a monkey, dog ect getting it ion..thats effin gross. But, its consentual...well i dunno if the dog or snake know whats really going on lol. God forbid someone makes a consentual rape play and records it, the fed finds out, and now your going to county...
sounds like one day, all yuo ddi was make love to yuor wwoman, get her preggo, and creating life wil be looked at as violent act

The point is,..what yuo and yuor partner do behind clsoed doors, is NOT the feds business, nor anyone elses, as long as it dosnt involve murder. Seems like the FED is trying to find ways to invade our sexual privacy now.

First off, I support free speech blah blah, as it pertains to this, because face it -- the world has degraded to the point where it would be fruitless to fight it.

But when I see things like:

"one of the top womens fantasy is a rape fantasy"

"So what if they make 'teen porn' that looks like 12 year olds?"

It honestly makes me see the point in mass killings via swine flu or other means in order to start over again because that's the only way we're ever going to see anything close to peace. We're at a crucial time in our evolution. We as humans fight, lie, steal, kill and almost seem to be inherently violent. And we did all of this before "simulated murder rape" came along. Do you really think this type of thing is good for our culture? Honestly?

Bring on the thought crime police. What kind of world do you think we'd live in if everyone who chronically thought about killing and raping children etc. were exterminated or jailed? I'm not talking about fleeting thoughts, I'm talking about ALL THE TIME. Does that scare you? Then I'm willing to bet you're scared because you think things like that sometimes. Normal mentally sane people DON'T.

We'll never see peace in this world unless we stop condoning harm on our fellow people in every possible sense of the word. So if you're all for things like this then you have no right to complain when a young man waltzes into your mother's home armed to the teeth, robbing and raping her. After all, you condoned the violent porn, violent video games, violent tv programming that influenced and groomed him subliminally or otherwise, all in the name of free speech.

reply to post by Bertha


Condoning freedom of expression isn't the same thing as condoning the acts expressed. That's like saying you condone all the things the news reports because you condone freedom of the press. Or like saying everyone who condones freedom of speech condones the content of a speech given by a neo-nazi.


TA



[edit on 5-7-2009 by TheAssociate]

Originally posted by Bertha
First off, I support free speech blah blah, as it pertains to this, because face it -- the world has degraded to the point where it would be fruitless to fight it.

But when I see things like:

"one of the top womens fantasy is a rape fantasy"

"So what if they make 'teen porn' that looks like 12 year olds?"

well instead of bashing me maybe you should give hell to all the womnen who said that's there fantasy

try googling "top women sexual fantasies" it's on almost every list


boy,,, women are sick huh???

and from the link/survey
www.askmen.com...

As mentioned in our Common Female Fantasies article, rape is a massively popular fantasy among women. Most psychologists believe this top 10 female sex fantasy allows a woman to have the wild, dirty sex she craves, without having to suffer the guilt that often follows.

so obviously women fantasize of this,,,, hence someone made videos of it
people like red cars,, hence ford makes red cars



shows like csi thrive on violent killers and exotic killings of human beings,,,, should we outlaw or put horatio cane in jail???

granted i don't like or condone rape fantasies,,, childlike porn etc. but like i said earlier this is a slippery slope

any ww11 movie portraying jews being burned alive should be outlawed if we follow this train of thought further

do you agree with that as well???

This is such a tricky issue. Broadly, I'm with the people in the freedom of speech camp, but it's not particularly cut and dried.

There's something else going on that I don't think people are getting, which is that as a whole, porn is getting more and more extreme.

Over the past couple of decades (coincident with the rise of home video) porn has gone mainstream. The difficulty with that is that there is this tendency or need for porn to remain stimulating... which means the ante has to be upped, incrementally but constantly.

Rob Black and Maz Hardcore are symptoms of this, it's that whole epater les bourgeois thing.

Originally posted by AshleyD
.Free speech is invaluable but not when it exploits or dehumanizes a group of people.

That's when you use the power of free speech to say, "look! these people are being exploited or dehumanized!" Denying free speech to others leads down the road to totalitarianism, it's as simple as that.

Billy Bragg, a musician and political commentator I admire, said that "even fascists should be given free speech. I can win an argument with a fascist easily."

I really couldn't care less if the actresses in the material were involved voluntarily. It's still sick and turns a very serious and life shattering crime into an act of entertainment.

Ever seen the beginning of Saving Private Ryan? That turns war into an act of entertainment, and a very bruising one too. Killing and murder are depicted all the time, as other posters have remarked.

I do not think such things should be allowed and am sick and tired of women being portrayed as victims or sexual objects without feelings. Or worse, individuals getting off on the pain of rape victims, simulated or not.

Here's the thing. There are women out there who actually enjoy being hurt and degraded. The reason I'm completely confident about saying this is that I've dated two, and know of several others. Both women I knew were strikingly intelligent and from their normal demeanour you'd never know their predilection.

It seems to me that the porn industry attracts quite a lot of women of that ilk, and that, plus the continuing need to shock, leads to the popularity of people like Rob Black and Max Hardcore.

Call me the thought police or what not. I don't really care. The fact is, if it was any other demographic portrayed in this light as in a dehumanizing manner for the entertainment of others (let's say a simulation of a black man's hanging), even if the participants were on a volunteer basis, I'd be equally disgusted. This stuff has got to stop.

There is a lot of porn in which females dominate men and do things to them even the thought of which makes me walk in a circle bent double making pitiful whining noises. And I don't mean I'm getting off on the idea. Should that genre be banned too? Because I can tell you, it's men who want to look at that stuff and have it happen to them. One of my friends is a domme, and she firmly maintains, "it's all about the sub, darling". In other words, when pain is being inflicted on someone in a sexual situation, it's because they want it that way.

Obviously we're only talking about consensual sex here. Rape is a crime and rightly so.

But logically if you want to stop depictions of rape, why not of murder too? Let's ban Diagnosis Murder, for a start.

reply to post by rich23


Great points, rich23. I had been wanting to point some of that out myself, but I'm relatively new here and didn't want to push the limits of the T&C's too far. Thanks for covering that aspect. Big star for you.


TA

I disagree with the whole 'porn is getting more extreme' view. There's more of it, everykind from softest to the hardest. But the really hard stuff is pretty much the same as it has been for a very long time.

reply to post by PsykoOps


Not sure I buy that argument either. I'm pretty young so I haven't had the dubious pleasure of viewing the 'old school' hard-core stuff for comparison to today's, but I'm willing to wager it's pretty much the same thing. The "proclivities" (or 'perversions' if you prefer) that are around today are the same that have been around since caveman times. This isn't new, it's just more visible.


TA

Originally posted by Bertha
So if you're all for things like this then you have no right to complain when a young man waltzes into your mother's home armed to the teeth, robbing and raping her. After all, you condoned the violent porn, violent video games, violent tv programming that influenced and groomed him subliminally or otherwise, all in the name of free speech.

Can you actually show a causal link here? I don't think so. I think you're just lumping a lot of things together that you find disgusting.

I've just googled "porn and rape statistics." There were many references to stories like this one:

Anthony D’Amato
of Northwestern University School of Law says that the correlation
between a newly-documented drastic decline in sexual violence in the
United States and a major increase in social access to pornography -
most recently over the Internet – casts doubt on widely-accepted
government findings on the causal connection between pornography and
criminality and suggests that one impact of porn may actually be
positive.

But there's also this page, which might be a bit more up Bertha's alley...

Porn research which refutes quite nicely the awful pro-porny propaganda bandied about so cheerfully on message boards. Feel free to cut and paste to your heart’s content, as reputable peer-reviewed research is the only thing which makes misogynists cry.

So, ok, the first thing we notice is there's no pretence of scientific detachment here.

The second thing I notice is that there's a certain lack of rigour. This is the social sciences, after all, so one should expect a certain vagueness, but...

The experiments that are listed actually don't prove the point the site's author is trying to make. For example:

Malamuth and Check (1981) conducted an experiment of particular interest because the movies shown were part of the regular campus film program. Students were randomly assigned to view either a feature-length film that portrayed violence against women as being justifiable and having positive consequences (”Swept Away”, “The Getaway”) or a film without sexual violence. The experiment showed that exposure to the sexually violent movies increased the male subjects’ acceptance of interpersonal violence against women. (This outcome did not occur with the female subjects.) These effects were measured several days after the films had been seen.

So it's not just porn then. Any movie showing violence against women will allegedly have an effect. Why, then, concentrate on porn?

When I first went to University in the late seventies, I was going out with a girl who was having her first exposure to feminism. (She's since got married and become quite the dutiful housewife, somewhat to my disappontment.) I remember her discussing the vexed issue of rape fantasies. It was framed ideologically as a product of a sick society, which it may be, but there seems to be no research to verify that fact.

Speaking personally, since my dalliance with one girl in particular who enjoyed what she termed "rough sex", I have become more interested in the subject. I have to say that it hasn't affected my interactions with subsequent girlfriends, because I just try to find out what people like and go with that - my focus is on giving pleasure. I also have to admit that having a beautiful girl who wanted to be tied up and hurt as part of sex was actually rather exciting. Does that mean that I now have rape fantasies about every girl I see? No. It does make me more open to the idea that some girls like that kind of thing, but it doesn't make me assume anything.

Another girl I knew liked having her nipples bitten so hard I was concerned I'd break the skin... (actually, I was terrified I'd bite the bloody thing off). But that's what she liked and I learned to relax about it.

People are various. You can't tell what someone's going to like, and people who judge others for their sexual preferences really ought to mind their own business.

Originally posted by TheAssociate
Not sure I buy that argument either. I'm pretty young so I haven't had the dubious pleasure of viewing the 'old school' hard-core stuff for comparison to today's, but I'm willing to wager it's pretty much the same thing. The "proclivities" (or 'perversions' if you prefer) that are around today are the same that have been around since caveman times. This isn't new, it's just more visible.

As someone who's now pusing 50 I can say that in my lifetime, porn has become more available and more prevalent. I have also noticed a rise in "extreme" sex.

Of course there's nothing new under the sun. It's just that more people have access to that stuff, and as that happens and boredom sets in, porn will cater to more extreme tastes.

reply to post by rich23


I think the term "consentual rape fantasy" would convey more of the sense of the fantasy vrs reality. ie. "No means yes".

Also If these people are declared guilty then Stanley Kubrick "clockwork orange" needs banned as well. Or any other film that appears to glorify violence against men or woman.

reply to post by ZombieOctopus


You really want people to get desensitized to horror and rape and murder?

I don't.

Lets not forget that not everyone in the porn industry are consensual. There are a lot of girls forced into this. Told it will help them get into hollywood. Forced into being smuggled from overseas. Many are forced into it to pay for drug habits.

Originally posted by nixie_nox
Lets not forget that not everyone in the porn industry are consensual. There are a lot of girls forced into this. Told it will help them get into hollywood. Forced into being smuggled from overseas. Many are forced into it to pay for drug habits.

Forcing a girl to have sex is rape.
Holding someone against their will is kidnapping.

We don't need vague obscenity laws to protect the examples you gave. The couples in question aren't being charged for rape and kidnapping they are being charged for violating Federal obscenity statutes.

Originally posted by shortywarn

well instead of bashing me maybe you should give hell to all the womnen who said that's there fantasy

try googling "top women sexual fantasies" it's on almost every list


boy,,, women are sick huh???

and from the link/survey
www.askmen.com...

As mentioned in our Common Female Fantasies article, rape is a massively popular fantasy among women. Most psychologists believe this top 10 female sex fantasy allows a woman to have the wild, dirty sex she craves, without having to suffer the guilt that often follows.

so obviously women fantasize of this,,,, hence someone made videos of it
people like red cars,, hence ford makes red cars



shows like csi thrive on violent killers and exotic killings of human beings,,,, should we outlaw or put horatio cane in jail???

granted i don't like or condone rape fantasies,,, childlike porn etc. but like i said earlier this is a slippery slope

any ww11 movie portraying jews being burned alive should be outlawed if we follow this train of thought further

do you agree with that as well???

What you missed was

the great majority of women with rape fantasies do not want real rape

women with attachment anxiety (neediness) have more sexual fantasies featuring submission.

Meaning they have emotional issues.

Reaction to Trauma - those who have been sexually abused may try to master their trauma by taming those experiences.

At the end of the day, the woman has control over it, and it can be hot to give yourself over completely to someone within that context knowing that you can trust them

I will repeat something I said earlier, the studies being done show that the majority of women who do have these fantasies, always need the safety factor ie be in control at all times.

As well as many women who have these fantasies have a history of sexual abuse, and are somehow trying to work through their history. They need therapy, not porn.

So, instead of this being used as another way to abuse women, these women should receive the help they need.

Harm None
Peace

I dont normally do this, but the quote below is exactly suited and pre empted indeed by this case, a week or so ago I replied on the following thread Man Charged in Virtual Porn Case which is about a man charged with peadophilia for putting childrens faces on Photo sofware on Naked adult bodies, the following reply Here

And I will put it below as it raises the same questions and thoughts as this case:

Originally posted by MischeviousElf
An interetsting thought train on this subject is if we take a lot of the initial emotional reaction to it away, and look at it with an openish mind...

My question which I will try and explain below, is that by actually using the emotional knee jerk reaction every normal person has, to child sexual exploitation is the penal/legal system, using the premise of safegaurding the rights of children, to protect them, as a cover in fact a slow creep towards infringing on the rights of all people?
From small acorns big trees grow and all that.

So consider the following, If a person uses a target practise of, as is often the case a famous politician, and actually is shooting them, rather than just observing, well then as we have no proof in any way in the OP case nor the story states he actually had any sexual reaction to these pictures... so therefore where someone is shown to actually not just look but take action on a picture by shooting it, should they be arrested for terrorism if its the president on the target?

Or for Rascism or xenophobia, inciting such acts of they shoot pictures of Osama Bin Laden?

Futher more to bring it to the sexual field, it is a well known fact that the most prevalent sexual "Fantasy" of all legal adults Especially women is the rape fantasy.

Now then if a man watchs a "Fantasy" alone or with his partner, say a film not just pictures of a Rape acted scene, should they then infact be arrested and charged for the liklihood they would actually go and do it?

Is it more likely and abhorrent as its sexual than the emotional pleasure gained from imagining yourself shooting and murdering an Arab, or a politician?

Should the makers of the targets or the films be arrested for inciting such actions to place?

If not why then if a woman of 18 has the physical attributes of a child, and looks like a 9 yr old due to hormones or whatever, and filmed a scene or had photos taken in sexual acts, or even just naked, and this man watched them would it then be ok as she is over 18?

Even if she looked younger than a child of 14 who was all woman in bodily appearance?

Where is the line the real demarcation?

In fact if a man and woman say a husband and wife, ask a freind to partcipitate in a Rape fantasy to fulfill a long desire of theirs should he then be arrested for doing so, or they for inciting him to go and do it on an actual person in the future?

What about the rights of Osama, George bush or other leading figures?

What about the rights and safegaurding of all women esp those who have suffered such sick non consentual things in life?

Should not the photo that is famous of the young vietname girl walking charred, half naked from a Napalm cloud from vietnam era never be published again?

Even though such an image had such an impact on stopping the war worldwide?

As it may be sexual to some?

In fact all those who scream about this man and faces of kids on adult bodies, are apparently so in child rights and protection...
Well you then have to think about the next present you buy for your precious little ones.... where and who made it?

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/files/f4115e2c302625d2.jpg[/atsimg]

Is that not worrying children working for 14 hours a day 7 days a week to targets getting no education and beaten and kept in bad conditions?

Shouldnt they be protected to?

OH no lets all freak out about a minute amount of terrible events that happen to 1 in a million barbie and ken kids.... and overreact get angry and protect the innocents, whilst our computers we are on now, the goods in Walmart and the Gap sweaters we wear are all made by slave labour... 9 -15 thats 7 years of their life destroyed and abused every day.

You see my point?

Lets get some real things to be angry about not some sexual deviant looking at a childs face on a computer screen but at what happens NOW to these children as follows:

246 million children are child labourers

73 million working children are less than
10 years old.

Every year, 22,000 children die in workrelated
accidents.

The largest number of working children –
127 million – age 14 and under are in the
Asia-Pacific region

8.4 million children are trapped in slavery,
trafficking, debt bondage, prostitution,
pornography and other illicit activities.

1.2 million of these children have been
trafficked.

Source

So for the appaled and string him up crowd, etc....

Well,
Hey go to Walmart in your SUV, all environmental made from plastic collected from children living in rubbish dumps where we ship our recycles to... wearing your gap clothes, where the kids who dyed them still have coloured and cencerous feet, then buy a nice pressie for little innocent made in a sweatshop and then come home and on the keyboard that a 9 or 10 year old slave laboured aver for about $4 a week tell us how sick and twisted this dude looking at those photos is.

Oh the hypocripsy, and enjoy your deviant sweet nothings in your "normal" partners ears next time you both get very very "Nasty"

Telling it as it is, not how we pretend.

Elf.

Edit for link, and readability.

Kind Regards,

Elf

Excellent points, harvib and MischeviousElf. Thanks for the replies. Never thought I would say this but I'm getting bored with discussing porn.


TA