Originally posted by CookieMonster09

Originally posted by In nothing we trust
I believe that there is a third party verification company, why don't you tell us about that Cookie.

I have no idea what you're referring to. Please explain.

Oh you mean there is no independant third party verification service that can claim impartiality and enforce the compliance of federal and state regulations?

No one that consumers (er, I mean citizens) can turn to for help?

Queue the lawyers.


[edit on 9-7-2009 by In nothing we trust]

Originally posted by Hazelnut
Can anyone explain why I continually receive credit offers from all of the major banks, increases in my limits and additional lines of credit since I've been unemployed for... a long time?

I received an updated major credit card in the mail, all I had to do was activate it. It was presented as if I already had the account, which coincidentally, I closed two weeks before. When I closed it the salesperson didn't seem to understand why I would want to cancel and close an account with so many perks attached to it. I had to repeat several times that I want the account closed.

They make it so damn easy to get into debt, but they make it a living hell to get out of.

They really aren't very user friendly are they. I think that they really just do the bare minimum that they have to in order to claim that they complied with the law.

If the credit reporting agency can verify a signed loan contract with YOUR signature on it, that IS legitimate proof that you owe the debt. It can't be any simpler than that. If that's "doing the bare minimum", my retort would be, "What else do you want them to do? What else can they do?"

Credit reporting agencies are not the FBI.

Now, if the signed loan contract is not legitimate, and is forged, then that's identity theft and a criminal matter for your attorney. It has nothing to do with being the credit reporting agency's fault.

It's not the credit reporting agency's job to clean up your mess. You chose the creditor - It's up to you to dispute the matter with them. To blame the credit reporting agency is shifting blame to a third party that isn't even involved in the credit transaction aside from a basic reporting function.

I think that thier goal is to break your spirit, by giving you a false sense of hope. The reality is that if you don't play thier game in at least a minimum sort of way then you are pretty much shut out of the system all together. They know the rules and only share the rule book with those that they like.

More highly charged, emotional nonsense with no proof whatsoever. Banking and lending has been around for centuries, long before you and I were born. Lending is pretty simple - Advance capital for a purchase, pay interest over time.

Yes, the lender is in the driver's seat and writes the rules of the contract. That's true of any other situation between buyer and seller. When you sign a contract to purchase a stereo at Best Buy, who writes the contract? The seller.

The rule book? If you can't read the loan contract, and understand it, either hire an attorney to explain it to you, or don't sign it.

If you have operated outside of thier system from early on they make it more difficult on you later. They assume that you are tainted or diseased.

No, it's very easy to establish credit. We have already heard from several individuals that they receive credit card solicitations on a regular basis, and you even state yourself how easy it is to obtain credit. So which is it? Is it easy or difficult to establish credit? You can't have it both ways.

When you deal with people that create money out of thin air you are dealing with the devil. They offer you whatever your heart desires and then hold your nose in the contract and tell you it was all your idea.

There's that "money out of thin air" baloney again. Where's your proof? Have you ever heard of a DEPOSIT or a CHECKING ACCOUNT? I guess that's money out of thin air, too, right?

Lenders don't offer "whatever you desire". In fact, lenders are generally very careful and cautious to not over-lend to a borrower to tip them over the edge with too much debt burden. The only ones known to do otherwise are sub-prime mortgage lenders, and they are NOT bankers.

Borrowing money is akin to putting yourself into indentured servitude, which means that lenders are the slave masters and thier agents are the overseers for thier master.

For most Americans that live within their means, borrowing money is not that big of a deal because they can handle it responsibly. Don't borrow money if you don't like the terms of the loan contract.

It's only when borrowers start to default that the bank actually takes any efforts to collect.

And whose fault is it that one defaults? The bank or the borrower? The borrower signed the contract agreeing to the terms. No one put a gun to their head.

How do you justify Americans borrowing like crazy for anything and everything? How do you justify this irresponsibility? You place the blame on the banks, not the borrower. Kind of one-sided, don't you think?

He's a multi-millionaire he doesn't need credit.

He is now. But he hasn't borrowed a dime for 20 years. And he wasn't always a multi-millionaire. In fact, he was flat broke and destitute 20 years ago.

They don't make it easy for poor, unconnected or under educated people to clean up thier messes.

Now you have to play the "poor, unconnected" card. Sheesh.

First, there are literally hundreds of non-profit organizations that work with the poor and underprivileged in this country to help them navigate the "system" as you call it - to find jobs, manage their finances, etc.

There are many, many non-profit organizations teaching financial literacy skills to underprivileged families.

Cookie I have to wonder if you aren't actually a shill for the credit reporting agencies. Your motives and the veracity for which you defend, the all noble credit reporting agaencies, are suspect. How do you sleep at night knowing that you are defending a totally dis-functional financial system that only favors the few at the top?

All I want is fair, objective, rational proof to your false allegations and absurd accusations. Each of which I have analyzed and disputed, and yet you fail to respond to my analysis or even discuss it. You fail to answer even one of my legitimate questions.

You take a one-sided, totally unfair, totally subjective approach to a highly emotional issue - money. You don't see the situation as it really is - the reality of the situation.

And please, do stop with the silly insults. (Funny how you can't debate me on the actual topics, so you have to resort to name-calling. You really are running out of ammo, aren't you?)

For MOST Americans, the credit system in this country operates just fine. They pay their bills, they don't get into credit problems, and life just kicks along without any real problems.

(Just because you can find a few people with bad credit on this forum, doesn't mean that they represent the majority of Americans. They don't.)

I sleep just fine at night knowing that I don't defend the habits of criminal deadbeats, criminals engaged in contract fraud, identity thieves, and similar crooked individuals.

I have empathy for borrowers that suffer legitimate health and job loss issues, because I know that they will quickly pay back their debts once they get back on their feet. These people have CHARACTER - something of which you know nothing about apparently. I sleep just fine because I am defending what is right and moral, and I am not defending what is immoral and crooked.

I also know the system is fair and objective. It doesn't discriminate based on race, religion, or creed. White Anglo-Saxon Protestants get the same treatment as minorities. Credit reports don't discriminate. They are fair and objective historical records 95% of the time.

We have a society based on contract law. It's better than a society run by some ego-maniac dictator or the whims of some arrogant king. A society managed by written contract is a much more just, fair, and equitable society than the alternative.

To me, these are black and white issues. You either pay your bills or you don't. If you don't, then you make the rest of society pay for your misdeeds because we end up paying for your mistakes in the form of higher interest rates.

If you screw up your credit, then you need to take responsibility for your actions, and take appropriate measures to correct the situation. That might mean contesting credit items, contacting the Attorney General, notifying the Better Business Bureau, hiring an attorney or a credit repair specialist, etc.

It's your responsibility - not the bank's, not the credit reporting agencies.

If you don't manage your credit properly, then that's your responsibility to educate yourself. And there are plenty of free resources to do so.

Oh you mean there is no independant third party verification service that can claim impartiality and enforce the compliance of federal and state regulations?

If you have an issue with a creditor, bank, credit reporting agency, etc., then hire an attorney, notify your local Attorney General, and file a complaint with the Better Business Bureau. File a lawsuit - It's pretty easy to do in this country.

There is no need for a "3rd party verification system" for credit reporting agencies because, for one, they are accurate 95% of the time. Secondly, they have really straightforward steps for correcting errors.

You totally over-exaggerate the instances of errors on credit reports. They are very, very accurate - Mainly because most of the records are submitted electronically.

They make it so damn easy to get into debt, but they make it a living hell to get out of.

No one ever forced anyone to take on debt. It's not like someone has a gun to their head when they take out a credit card, a car loan, a mortgage, etc.

If you don't know what you're doing, don't do it. Don't borrow.

Originally posted by CookieMonster09

If the credit reporting agency can verify a signed loan contract with YOUR signature on it, that IS legitimate proof that you owe the debt.

NO one knows what's in a contract that you sign except the party that wrote the contract. No one hires an attorney to proof read a consumer contract. I'm sure commercial contracts that are signed by established business are read by an attorney, but for the most part I'll bet you most people have no idea what they are signing.

So lets say you sign a contract with the devil himself and it is a forever renewing contract with all kinds of penalties and fees that favor the originator of the contract.

While you go through the legal three ring circus to prove that the contract orginator is trully evil they ruin your credit while it is contested. And all the while the credit reporting beaureas take the side of the devil who pays them money to have the ability to mark up someones credit file. Failing to remove the record while it goes through the legal system really does not favor the borrower. This makes the credit reporting beaureas an accomplice to the devil who wrote the contract and knows the legal system better than the consumer who never read the 14 pages of fine print.

It is tantemount to legal extortion. The credit beauras are an accomplice to the crime.

There are all kinds of schnanegans, legal blackmail and extortion that occur in contract law and the collection industry.

[edit on 9-7-2009 by In nothing we trust]

Originally posted by CookieMonster09

Don't borrow.

Alot of your arguments are based on ivory tower philosophy and pie in the sky ideals instead of reality Cookie.

Sure don't borrow. For most people paying cash from the ground up is not a feasible idea. How many people trully pay cash for thier house, car and education and have never borrowed money ever, and are able to live someplace decent.

How about we try something different.

Don't lend.

NO one knows what's in a contract that you sign except the party that wrote the contract. No one hires an attorney to proof read a consumer contract. I'm sure commercial contracts that are signed by established business are read by an attorney, but for the most part I'll bet you most people have no idea what they are signing.

Business owners and corporations hire attorneys all the time to review loan contracts. It's pretty standard fare in the business world.

For most other loan contracts at the consumer level, most of the contracts are pretty simple and straightforward. Car purchase contracts are pretty straightforward - Fixed payment, no balloon, interest rate right on the contract. Don't pay, expect a repo, and that you'll end up paying for any collection and legal costs associated with the repo.

Home Equity Lines of Credit are pretty straightforward too. Interest only, based on equity in the house, variable rate that fluctuates with interest rates. Best to keep track of the value of your house, and to watch interest rates as they change over time.

Credit card contracts are the worst - Very one-sided, and very stiff fees and interest rates. Anyone with any sense whatsoever would be careful with credit cards - They are notorious for playing all kinds of games with their contracts - So much so that the government has stepped in to take appropriate action, even lately. Best to pay these on time, or get hit with penalties, higher interest rates, etc.

Cell phone, furniture, etc. contracts all vary depending on the particular store. But again, if you break things down to basics:

Interest Rate - Variable or Fixed
Term (30 years, etc.)
Payment - Variable or Fixed
Balloon or No Balloon
Penalties - Late Pay Penalties, Early Payment Penalties, Collection costs

Consumers should, however, hire an attorney to represent them anytime a large purchase occurs - such as a house purchase.

You are right - Most people don't read what they are signing, but that's their decision. No one is forcing them to sign, and no one is putting a gun to their head to sign the loan contract.

If they don't understand what they are signing, or they don't understand the loan terms, it's best that they don't sign and seek appropriate counsel.

If they sign something they don't understand, then they accept the consequences associated with that choice and decision.

Here's the reason why they don't read the contract: All they want to know are the basics - What's my rate? Term? Any penalties? etc. It's usually pretty cut and dry - And most people know that.

Most people also know, understand, and accept the consequences if they miss a payment or stiff their creditors.

The fine print? Read it if you want. You probably have to be an attorney to understand all of the legal ramifications. But, for 95% of Americans, they understand that: you pay every month, don't be late, and if you do, the creditor calls the shots and your recourse to the creditor is minimal unless fraud was involved.

If you want to replace legal, binding contracts, what on earth do you propose that we replace contracts with? Authoritarian dictators? You want to throw out the rule of law? Throw out contract law?

I would rather live in a world managed by written contracts than the whims of some authoritarian government.

CONTINUED BELOW

Originally posted by CookieMonster09

For most other loan contracts at the consumer level, most of the contracts are pretty simple and straightforward.

Did you miss the part where I stated that most people are morons?

Basic finance is not taught in the public school system. You would think if TPTB wanted to create consumers they would at least teach people in the public school system to pay thier bills and live within thier means, etc.

Obviously good citizenship, basic morals, creative thinking and questioning the world around you is not taught using public tax money either. Or even in the private educational system anymore.

Oh wait that was suppossed to be the role of the state sponsored religion.

[edit on 9-7-2009 by In nothing we trust]

Originally posted by CookieMonster09

I would rather live in a world managed by written contracts than the whims of some authoritarian government.

Well I guess we've got the best of both worlds now. Yippee.

This makes the credit reporting beaureas an accomplice to the devil who wrote the contract and knows the legal system better than the consumer who never read the 14 pages of fine print. It is tantemount to legal extortion. The credit beauras are an accomplice to the crime. There are all kinds of schnanegans, legal blackmail and extortion that occur in contract law and the collection industry.

Collectors - especially consumer collectors - are pretty aggressive. Agreed.

By the time a debt reaches a collector, it's bad news for the creditor because the creditor has lost his shirt on the deal. These collectors usually collect on typical consumer junk debt - credit card charge-off's, old electric bills, etc.

Most of it is junk debt from borrowers that never intended on paying in the first place, and stiffed the creditor.

(Instead of siding with the creditor that is taking a sucker punch, you take sides with the crooked criminal party that stiffed the creditor - the deadbeat. Go figure.)

If it's a borrower with character that wants to make good on their debts, most creditors will establish some kind of repayment plan or more favorable terms with the borrower (longer term, lower rate, etc.) - rather than take a loss.

Most Americans pay their bills, however, so this never becomes an issue - Except in the case of a medical issue or job loss.

Deadbeats skip town, don't return calls, play evasive, change names, etc. They know the drill because they have done this time and time again. It's called fraud, plain and simple.

But credit reporting agencies as an accomplice to the devil? That's a bit excessive. All they do is report historical credit information. Nothing more, nothing less.

Collecting a legitimate debt is not extortion. It's simply enforcing the terms of the contract, plain and simple.

You can rest assured that if you stiff a creditor, they will take legal action against you. That's not extortion.

So, go ahead. Side with the deadbeat criminal that stiffs their creditor. I guess you are entitled to that opinion, but it speaks volumes about your belief system and character.

Alot of your arguments are based on ivory tower philosophy and pie in the sky ideals instead of reality Cookie.

No, it's based on real world experience dealing with people with good credit, and bad credit. I can recognize the signs of a deadbeat a mile away.

I have heard all the sob stories, and the whiny complaints, and the BS stories. And I just don't buy it.

Deadbeats have bad credit typically because they have an "entitlement" philosophy that everyone "owes them" and everyone is "out to get them". They live high on the hog at the expense of others. They are criminals, plain and simple.

I also understand the gray areas - When people run into trouble with their credit due to circumstances outside of their control.

Such as someone that has a heart attack, and has ruined their credit in the meantime and is trying to get back on their feet. Or someone that has a job loss, and is getting back on their feet. These are people with real character, that quickly bounce back on their feet and turn their credit history around in a short period of time. They are not deadbeats - They are people with temporary setbacks.

There is a huge difference between a deadbeat and someone that is experiencing a temporary setback.

Sure don't borrow. For most people paying cash from the ground up is not a feasible idea. How many people trully pay cash for thier house, car and education and have never borrowed money ever, and are able to live someplace decent.

Humans have lived on this planet for centuries without cell phone bills, student loans, car loans, and the like. The fact is, Americans are materialistic and selfish and can't control their spending habits. Let's talk straight - Americans are credit junkies, as is our government.

CONTINUED BELOW

How about we try something different. Don't lend.

Who's living in a fantasy world now? You will never, ever be able to outlaw lending. You will always have predatory lenders, even if they are illegal and outlawed - which they are in many states.

The answer to the situation is for borrowers to get creative and take proactive action to minimize debt. Goodness knows there is plenty of things people can cut out of their lavish American lifestyles. Let's see if people can live without a brand new car every year, or the fanciest cell phone that just hit the market, or the latest clothing, etc. Americans are addicted to spending, credit, and materialistic values.

It's their own downright stupidity that gets them into credit trouble. Don't blame the banks or credit reporting agencies - Blame the upside down culture of America, and the materialistic greed that pervades our society.

Did you miss the part where I stated that most people are morons? Basic finance is not taught in the public school system. You would think if TPTB wanted to create consumers they would at least teach people in the public school system to pay thier bills and live within thier means, etc. Obviously good citizenship, basic morals, creative thinking and questioning the world around you is not taught using public tax money either. Or even in the private educational system anymore.

Just because the educational system doesn't teach financial literacy skills, doesn't mean the information and education isn't readily available if people want to learn.

I mean - Just turn on the TV or listen to the radio. Dave Ramsey is on the radio EVERY DAY. Suze Ormon is on TV all the time. Our bookstores and libraries and Amazon.com have tons and tons of books on personal finance, debt management, etc.

The information is there for the taking. And you don't have to look far. If people are morons about personal finance, then they need to wake up. Maybe when they stiff a creditor, it will be their wake up call.

The good thing about this credit crisis is that it has woken up a lot of people to realize how stupid they have behaved in the past.

[edit on 9-7-2009 by CookieMonster09]

Originally posted by CookieMonster09

You will always have predatory lenders, even if they are illegal and outlawed - which they are in many states.

Who's siding with the devil now?

Are the credit reporting companies really doing themselves any favors by siding with preditory lenders?

They are reporting false data by known criminals (Or perhaps unknown) under the guise of just doing thier duty to report impartially.

Known preditory lenders should have thier reporting privlidges revoked and all past data that they reported, on thier victims, across the board expunged. They pay the bills though don't they.

Preditory lenders should be subject to compensatory and punitive damages.

I acknowledge that ther are liers and cheats out there who set out to decieve their lenders. Now you finally admit that there are liers and cheats out there who set out to decieve thier borrowers. The street has traffic that goes in both directions my friend.

Before you did not acknowledge this fact.

[edit on 9-7-2009 by In nothing we trust]

Originally posted by CookieMonster09

There is a huge difference between a deadbeat and someone that is experiencing a temporary setback.

I concur, so why do the credit reporting bureaus and FICO fail to make the distinction?

Originally posted by CookieMonster09

Let's see if people can live without a brand new car every year, or the fanciest cell phone that just hit the market, or the latest clothing, etc. Americans are addicted to spending, credit, and materialistic values.

It's their own downright stupidity that gets them into credit trouble. Don't blame the banks or credit reporting agencies - Blame the upside down culture of America, and the materialistic greed that pervades our society.

Who told these people they could afford them to begin with?

Who encouraged companies and wall street to push the profit limit?

Who's really at fault here?

The pusher or the addict?

Who's siding with the devil now?

Let me clarify. Banks aren't typically classified as "predatory". What I meant were title pawns, payday lenders. These lenders - payday lenders in particular - are predatory. By and large, banks - especially the large banks - have very strict lending criteria and lend at prime rates. They are not classified as predatory by any means.

They are reporting false data by known criminals

Well, that's a blanket accusation. How is it that every bank, lender, creditor is a criminal? Maybe by your own, personal definition of "criminal", but they are not criminal de facto based on the law.

The real criminals are deadbeats that stiff creditors.

I acknowledge that ther are liers and cheats out there who set out to decieve their lenders.

A breakthrough! Yippee!

Now you finally admit that there are liers and cheats out there who set out to decieve thier borrowers.

Here's what I will acknowledge, a worst to best list:

Terrible:
Payday lenders (criminal)
Title pawn lenders (legal in half the states, still pretty bad)
Credit cards (unsecured lenders, heavy marketers, shady at best, but very popular and accepted)
Sub-Prime Lenders (criminal)
Sub-Prime Auto Finance (criminal, like dealing with Guido)
World Bank (depends on your politics, but akin to pillaging 3rd world countries to many experts)

Not too shabby:
Legit Mortgage Brokers (not sub-prime)
Credit Unions (more pro-consumer than most lenders)
Retail Banks (profit-focused, generally a breadth of services)
Community Banks (heavily invested in the local biz community)
Auto Finance (not sub-prime, Honda Finance for example)
Student Loans (low, low rates, super long terms, best to payoff early)
Big Banks - Commercial Lending (very corporate, very legal - Legit)
Venture Capital/Private Equity (Vultures to some, but also fund high risk start-ups)
Computer/Medical/Tech Finance (Varies. IBM Credit is legit, but some consumer finance depends on the creditor.)

Gray area:
Private Creditors - cell Phone companies, electric bill, phone bill, furniture, computers, etc. (Depends on the particular company, etc. Choose wisely.)
Receivables Financing/Asset Based Lenders (high rates, useful to some businesses, but pricey and usually a transition lender so has its place in the market)
Equipment Lessors (GE Capital is legit, but many lease brokers are shysters, high rates, high fees with brokers)

I think that covers the gamut of lenders, but I am sure I missed someone.



[edit on 9-7-2009 by CookieMonster09]

[edit on 9-7-2009 by CookieMonster09]

Originally posted by CookieMonster09

Originally posted by In nothing we trust

Now you finally admit that there are liers and cheats out there who set out to decieve thier borrowers.

Here's what I will acknowledge, a worst to best list:

Terrible:
Payday lenders (criminal)
Title pawn lenders (legal in half the states, still pretty bad)
Credit cards (unsecured lenders, heavy marketers, shady at best, but very popular and accepted)
Sub-Prime Lenders (criminal)
Sub-Prime Auto Finance (criminal, like dealing with Guido)

Not too shabby:
Legit Mortgage Brokers (not sub-prime)
Credit Unions (more pro-consumer than most lenders)
Retail Banks (profit-focused, generally a breadth of services)
Community Banks (heavily invested in the local biz community)
Auto Finance (not sub-prime, Honda Finance for example)
Student Loans (low, low rates, super long terms, best to payoff early)
Big Banks - Commercial Lending (very corporate, very legal - Legit)
Venture Capital/Private Equity (Vultures to some, but also fund high risk start-ups)

Gray area:
Private Creditors - cell Phone companies, electric bill, phone bill, furniture, computers, etc. (Depends on the particular company, etc. Choose wisely.)

OK I'll agree with your list.

The only ones that should be reporting anything to the credit bureaus should be from your 'Not too shabby' list. But then again when it came time to increase the profits of the credit bureaus the credit bureau salesmen went knocking on every door in the country didn't they.

I really fail to understand why the government must insist on reporting to the bureaus for collections. It's just another tool for them to get thier share of the cash that they feel entitiled to.

[edit on 9-7-2009 by In nothing we trust]