If HE walked the earth today, he would abhor today's Church, page 2

reply to post by badmedia

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Having a building that a church meets in isn't a replacement for wisdom, as long as we are building that congregation spiritually and on Christ. On anything else it's man's doing and it's not going to succeed.

reply to post by LexTalionis

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Hi Lex/

I guess if one wants 'ILLUSIONS' of Satans Grandeur, then Yes!

Jesus Christ came with no illusions!
When He suddenly appears in the clouds with the Sign Of the Son Of Man ''THE Cross'' Judgment Day begins for the Living and the dead!
No 1000 years of false Scripture and No rapture!

If it is Illusions that you seek, the Antichrist and his false prophet will show you the best you ever seen!

For than shall be great tribulation,
such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time; no,
nor ever shall be.
And except those days should be shortened,
there should no flesh be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened (Matt. 24:21, 22)...tortures will be so BAD ,that we are going to wish we were dead!
And for the sake of the believers of that time,life will be cut short!

ICXC NIKA
helen

Originally posted by octotom
reply to post by badmedia

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There is only 1 true church,

I agree. But, the one true church is made up of local bodies of believers as we can't all be together.

Not at all, it is made up of wisdom, knowledge and understanding within a person. That which is truly rich in the eyes of god, and those who actually seek and find the father will have their treasures full(read further down in Proverbs 8, couldn't quote it all).

I agree also, but just because I attend a church to be with fellow Christians doesn't mean that it's my "second" master. I am against church membership because of how some churches use church membership. If a church that I am attending were to trepass against God's word, I would do what I could to rectify the problem, then split if nothing changed. My Lord is more important.

All a church building is a building where people meet. There is nothing special about the building. What is special is what makes up the congregation. A church, or called out ones, can meet anywhere. In my hometown back in Florida, there is a church that meets on the beach. What is important is the edification of the body and the worship of God. Before I moved to Germany, my wife and I attended a church that met in a school cafeteria. Wherever you meet, the attitude is important. I can go and worship in a church that has 10,000 members and a multi-million dollar budget and all God is going to care about is the motivation of me being there. The same goes for those that build and pastor churches like that. God is only going to care about their motivation. What are they doing for him, are they reaching people, are they using their resources in a God honoring way.

But that is not a "church", or the church Jesus is talking about is my point. It is what you said, just a building. Can and do these people help you build that true church? Yes. But the true church is within.

See now, I've told you before, don't confuse Catholics with Protestants. Not all Christians believe that the act of Baptism does anything spiritually. It is a symbol and it shows that we're committing ourselves to Christ. Jesus had people baptized when he was alive and he commanded his disciples to baptize people in his name. If baptism was a purely spiritual thing, it would be impossible for his disciples to baptize people.

Disagree. Those who know and have the holy spirit are able to baptize people in the truth. Touch souls. They can show people the way, and how to fix their mistakes/repent for their sins.

Also, it is really only Catholicism that uses physical things and applies spiritual meaning to it. You're not going to find statues of saints in a Baptist church. You're not going to find that Sunday's Jesus in the monstrance in the altar in the Methodist church down the road.

Always remember, not all Christians are Catholic and do Catholic things.

Well I certainly can not group all Christians into one lump, so I agree. Everything is all based on an individual basis, I think the forums are proof of that with the differing opinions. I'm just saying what is wrong with it, if you are not doing it, then it doesn't apply to you.

What you say highlights the problem with talking about things in groups/collectivism. All one needs to do is bring up a single example within that group. What happens is that all in that group that is "bad" then hides behind it.

So please excuse me there, I certainly do not mean to group all together. I understand it sounds that way, and I forget that people don't automatically realize I do not mean it in such a way. I'm more talking about the actions themselves, rather than the people.

And it's not like it's just Christians that this applies too. I see the same kinds of things in other religions too, where people lack understanding and focus on the symbolism and such instead.

I think we are replying to each other at the same time on posts and are a bit out of sync. We kind of address each others points before the other brings it up it looks like. I'll stop posting for now and allow you to catch up to this post. Let me know when you've got them all.


[edit on 7/3/2009 by badmedia]

reply to post by badmedia

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I don't think me and octotom really disagree either, seems we are basically talking about the same understanding.

I actually had the same thought just now. I think that, as far as the church thing goes, we are agreeing on the same point, but coming at it in different ways--perhaps making it seem like we're disagreeing.

Yes, the true church, the body of Christ, is not a physical thing. It is something inside. Being a member of this church is the most important thing.

Now, I believe that a physical church building can have a purpose--for those that are members of the true church to gather. [Though it doesn't have to be, nor should it be, the only place where Christ's followers gather.] Would you agree with this, badmedia?

Being a member of a church, contrary to the belief of most, doesn't "save" someone. And, unfortunately, deceivers can, and undoubtedly have, crept into churches. That is why followers of Jesus need to always be on their guard, be in the word, and be able to spot those who are wolves in sheep's clothing.

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Also, I want to apologize if I came off too harsh when I said that not all Christians are Catholic in the practices and what not. I didn't mean to. I just see it a lot here on ATS when people equate all Christians to one group or another and it grinds my gears--if you know what I mean.

[edit on 7/3/2009 by octotom]

reply to post by octotom

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But the physical building is not the church Jesus talks about. And it's the function of what the people are doing inside it that determines if it's helpful or not etc.

Calling it a church creates confusion. It makes people think that the verse you gave about Peter and the rock is talking about such a physical church. It is not. So because we call them churches, it leads to confusion and people are unable to understand what Jesus is talking about, and the physical building becomes a replacement for that true church in those people.

They are called churches because that is what the Catholic "Church" calls it. And that tradition carries on with all the other denominations as well, because all of them have their roots in the Catholic Church.

I knew someone would quote the Peter and the rock verse before I even said the word Church in this thread for example. Because that is how the majority of people see it. Even now, you still defend it.

As well, it is merely a single example of many things that have been done/manipulated in this way. And again they all find their roots back in the Catholic Church. Because those who do not understand continue to carry on those replacements without realizing it.

Yes there are exceptions, and I say those people found it in spite of, not because of. And it is no coincidence that they are called churches, it is done as part of the manipulation/deception of this world.

Now obviously we aren't going to make everyone change the name to something else etc. They are going to be called churches for the rest of our days, no matter if it's liked or not. I myself still call them churches, because that is what people know them as. But it should be understood, and people need to be able to see the manipulation in it, as that will shed light on how manipulations like that work, and help towards spotting out others. Even if I could change all them from Church to something else, it wouldn't make a difference. People would just fall for something else. It's something they need to see and understand for themselves. Then they are less likely to be fooled by other things in the future.

And we can see here that it's not even easy to talk about in itself. I can't just say church and people understand. And I certainly am not against what you speak of.

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