Russian Special Forces-Specnaz

Is it really something to be proud of? Being the best at killing people? Perhaps we should rate a few serial killers while we're at it?

Originally posted by Dimitri Dzengalshlevi

Originally posted by Bearack
Examples being Beslan school massacre where negotiations were not an option at the expense 334 people, 186 were children.

Yes, many people died during the Beslan massacre, but that was due to the incompetence of the terrorists. They were standing on pressure panels connected to bombs, and one of them detonated without warning. This is when Spetsnaz rushed in.

The theater seige was a tragic mistake though because of how many civilians died from the experimental knockout gas that the government used... but think of the alternative. Sacrifice is necessary sometimes if you want to save them all.

Not to be argumentative, really, but that is what separates us from them. There is a general consensus with our men and women to do what ever it takes to save lives. We've spent billions upon billions of dollars to advance our weapons technology to limit as much civilian casualties as possible while in some cases, Russia still uses post WWII armaments that generally have catastrophic results to everything around them....including civilian casualties.

Originally posted by Bearack


Well, the Delta Force and other US special forces are constrained by a code of conduct which Spetsnaz are not. As seen in the past on multiple occasions, they will kill as many citizens as it takes to wipe out the opposing force.

Your absolutely correct..There are no rules of engagment with them..They know their job and get it done,no questions asked..Thats what makes them so god dam good..And what they dont have in tech they make up 10 fold with the sheer power of kill or be killed..No second geussing,just do your job and go home alive..

our forces have their hands tied from the most high ups in DC..perfect example.the SEALs and those pirates..If it was solely the SEAL teams decisions being played it would have been over by the first nightfall..But,they had to wait on who to call back with the ok??

reply to post by Bearack


And that is exactly the main problem with American special forces; they depend way too much on technology and their government masters. Real special forces have their own autonomous power and they are trained to handle situations on their own without help or excessive tech.

That is by definition true special forces, an independent and elite force that can execute any mission without any consequence for the sole purpose of national security. They are the top of the food chain with the world in their hands. One day I plan to join the JTF-2 for this very reason.

reply to post by Dimitri Dzengalshlevi


You see there is a problem.That's a good start but you don't see THE problem. It isn't an overreliance on technoogy or a need to be told how to perform in the field or in training. But a system that will not allow them to take out a few hostiles(?) unless some politician decides that he won't take much of a backlash at home or oversees. Even with GPS you can't immagine how much time is spent with a map and compass. Have you seen a USMC sniper rifle? There's not much more Technology there than was used in WWII.

I have always liked the Spetznaz because I love that no mercy style ( not trying to be bloodthirsty or anything). I just think that's the mind set to have because it almost guarantees and I agree with what was said above.

I have always liked the Spetznaz because I love that no mercy style ( not trying to be bloodthirsty or anything). I just think that's the mind set to have because it almost guarantees and I agree with what was said above.

Originally posted by Dimitri Dzengalshlevi
And that is exactly the main problem with American special forces; they depend way too much on technology and their government masters. Real special forces have their own autonomous power and they are trained to handle situations on their own without help or excessive tech.

I would recommend you look for a documentary that was aired on the Discovery channel a few years ago that followed a class of SEAL hopefuls from the very start of hell week through to graduation.

Minimal tech, major survival skills.

I guess what i'm saying is that I respectfully disagree with your assessment

Don't get me wrong, I realise that American special forces are trained to carry out their mission in any circumstances. It's about the entire Western philosophy when it comes to combat. The US plans every war they go to and they have to rely heavily on communication and coordonation to carry out their plan.

When it comes to Eastern combat philosophy, the key is to have an ultimate goal to be achieved by any means necessary. Plans are made on the battlefield (which is good counter-intel) and if you want to live, then you don't stop moving.

In fact, that is what makes Spetsnaz one of the most effective forces in the world. They're designed to carry out rapid deployment in any environment, launch an overwhelming assault, assume command and control of the area and then RTB for vodka time.

BTW, you don't know survival unless you live it, and I lived in the bush for 19 years. After my experiences and moving to a city, I'm surrounded by people who take everything and their lives for granted. There is no better survival training then trying to start a fire in the woods at night during the worst of a Canadian winter while drunk.

[edit on 10-7-2009 by Dimitri Dzengalshlevi]

reply to post by Dimitri Dzengalshlevi

Dosent Canada also have a new special forces unit? A battalion size marine/naval infantry type force if I recall correctly?

Correct me if I am wrong but OMON, Vityaz, Rus, etc are Russian Militsiya (police) special forces units, the Spetnaz are part of the Russian Army, and the Alfa and Vympal are part of the Federal Security Service?

with all do respect almost all SF groups are about as pushed to the limit as can be in terms of human ability. I have a friend that is a SEAL. they DO NOT get fancy equipment. none of the toys you see in the commercials. infact they usually don't trust the equipment anyways unless it's old tech. electronics have a high murphy factor. old fashioned gizmos don't. they take a licking during insertion and still work when you need them. the guns, same ones everybody else uses. it's the soldier not the equipment. As long as you know how to hammer a nail technique wise it doesn't matter too much how big or fancy a hammer you are using. could be a piece of crap or a high tech one the results will be the same.

But SF are secretive because they don't disclose all that they are capable of. For every SF mission you hear about it's the other 10 that go down that were flawless and you will never know about. so we really don't know what these SF units are capable of. I know from personal knowledge that SEAL teams do a lot more than shoot guns. they do A LOT of espionage. in spooky ways we'll never fathom or know about. they are unconventional warriors who think and kill out of the box. so we are likely not going to imagine what they are capable of because we will be thinking along the wrong lines.

Also, why do we only think of the british SAS, the US SEALS and Delta and the spetznaz? China has some seriously evil SF units. South Korea's SF nits made quite the impression of SEAL team 6 when they went to cross train. the SF nits of the world are more intimidated by the Aussie SAS or the UK's Royal marines-not their SAS. Recon marines did a hll of a lot of clandestine spooky stuff. germany has GSG9 and KSK. Polands SF units are extreamly good. Isreal is good but limited in their abilitites. etc...

[edit on 10-7-2009 by BASSPLYR]

Because aside from US, UK, and Russian SF most of the others are rarely in combat.

How many times have the Royal Danish Navy's Frømandskorpset been in combat? How about the Swedish Army's Kustjägarna? I rest my case. Combat is the ultimate qualification.

Originally posted by ChrisF231
reply to post by Dimitri Dzengalshlevi

 

Dosent Canada also have a new special forces unit? A battalion size marine/naval infantry type force if I recall correctly?

Correct me if I am wrong but OMON, Vityaz, Rus, etc are Russian Militsiya (police) special forces units, the Spetnaz are part of the Russian Army, and the Alfa and Vympal are part of the Federal Security Service?

Canada's main SF unit is the JTF-2, but we have a new unit that will be at full capacity around 2010 called CSOR. CSOR's primary purpose is to back up JTF-2.

FSB controls pretty much all of Russia's SF, and the FSB itself is autonomous from the rest of the Russian military (meaning they have the ability to carry out whatever they want without higher approval). There's a bunch of different SF squads though, but the main ones are domestic defense OMON and offensive GRU. Russian SF are different based on their training and skills, not necessarily their operational zone though.

Originally posted by Bearack

Originally posted by Dimitri Dzengalshlevi
What are you talking about? Spetsnaz GRU/OMON/ALFA are probably the most proven special forces in the world. They do only what needs to be done, and they do it without mercy or question.

I would choose functional Spetsnaz over flashy Delta Force any day

Well, the Delta Force and other US special forces are constrained by a code of conduct which Spetsnaz are not. As seen in the past on multiple occasions, they will kill as many citizens as it takes to wipe out the opposing force.

Examples being Beslan school massacre where negotiations were not an option at the expense 334 people, 186 were children.

they missed a bomb rig in the gymnasium, that's why so many kids died.

Originally posted by Bearack

Originally posted by Dimitri Dzengalshlevi

Originally posted by Bearack
Examples being Beslan school massacre where negotiations were not an option at the expense 334 people, 186 were children.

Yes, many people died during the Beslan massacre, but that was due to the incompetence of the terrorists. They were standing on pressure panels connected to bombs, and one of them detonated without warning. This is when Spetsnaz rushed in.

The theater seige was a tragic mistake though because of how many civilians died from the experimental knockout gas that the government used... but think of the alternative. Sacrifice is necessary sometimes if you want to save them all.

Not to be argumentative, really, but that is what separates us from them. There is a general consensus with our men and women to do what ever it takes to save lives. We've spent billions upon billions of dollars to advance our weapons technology to limit as much civilian casualties as possible while in some cases, Russia still uses post WWII armaments that generally have catastrophic results to everything around them....including civilian casualties.

Hmm, that is debatable. Yes, the US has spent billions of dollars to advance weapon technology, but not as you claim to limit civilian casualties but to limit US casualties and to increase the chances of killing the enemy.

I really do not see the difference between an artillery shell landing in a populated area with the aim of killing the enemy, to a cruise missile being fired in the effort to kill the enemy. Both might take out the bad guys, but both will probably inflict civilian deaths.

See all special forces are different. For the most part our SF(Special Forces)(The US) are trained to think not so much kill, yeah they know how to use a gun and how to do it better then most but they are taught to use strategy more so then going in blasting everyone. Spetznaz how ever. They are trained to kill and get the mission done period. They kill anything that moves and to me is a more proficient SF. I think this because one you cannot constantly ask for permission to shoot and cant be bogged down with 10000 different laws that if you don't abide by one you can sit in jail for the rest of your life. Lets put a scenario up:

Ok so SF have to infiltrate a enemy compound while there are woman children and many different people there most looking the same as they have masks and stuff on. SF must kill the head of the compound at any means necessary.

Delta Force: Would most likly go in and not kill any civies or anything(Not saying its right) and might lose a chance to kill the target.

Spetznaz: Will go in and shoot anyone they fill is a threat and will most likely kill the target even though there is a slight chance he may get away.

All in all we really cant say whos better except for opinion and I say Spetznaz is the best even though the US still has a couple higher ranking SF then Delta Force IE Grey Fox.

Well will never know who is the best SF unless they all actually went against each other and lets hope that don't happen.