Originally posted by Essan
The similarity between alleged aliens and ourselves strongly suggests they do not originate beyond Earth...

There could be explanations for this. But it would just be speculation. None of us have any evidence to come to any intelligent conclusions about the nature of these entities, if they exist.

Originally posted by Matrix Rising
Your debating a claim that was never made.

As are you...

Originally posted by Matrix Rising
Again, skeptics/debunkers have not been able to answer the simple question. Why is it logical to reduce life in the universe to earth based on what we know now?

No skeptic is making this claim. You are claiming it is the skeptics position, then attacking skeptics for it, when no skeptic has said this. The only one debating this is you. In an intellectually honest discussion, you cannot demand someone defend a position they do not hold.

How is "they were hallucinating, lying or stupid" a logical position?

becuase human beings hallucinate, lie and are stupid

Matrix_Rising I'm pretty sure the perceived problem you have, is the assumption that when a skeptic says "There is no proof that that is an alien spacecraft" that what they are actually saying is "That is not an alien spacecraft"

Skepticism is healthy, debunkery is not. You'll notice if you look carefully that, there are far fewer debunkers out there than you might think. Most of them steer well clear of this place.

I can understand your frustration at the way Ufology is percieved. However, I believe the perception is a generation gap. The gap is, those who are the internet generation, and those who are the television generation. As the television generation dies off, and the internet generation are the only guys around, we will see a new way of thinking.

I think we all need to get passed the them and us stage and work together in order to achieve much better things like for example, forcing the governments to tell the truth once and for all.

When someone says there's no proof of Alien spacecraft I do think that's an illogical position. Nobody has ever claimed there's proof but there's evidence that says alien spacecraft exists.

There's a big difference.

Let's not get into the dissection of the difference between evidence and proof. Everyone knows what the difference is, but for the sake of expediency the words are used interchangeably.

I think we have to get passed the debate over wether they exist because it's an illogical one that will lead to nowhere.

The reason we've not moved on to this paradigm yet is because the human race is inherently practical. No matter how much evidence there is, a normal person will not believe something about ufos and aliens until they see one for themselves. You might be frustrated with that, and argue that is a flaw in our nature. It doesn't really matter, it's just the way it is at this time.

I think there's a good reason that skepticism is in our nature. Because those who have none in my opinion are gullible to the point where they can be driven mentally ill. My uncle believes everything he reads in the fields of ufology. This guy is worse than David Ike. He used to sleep in a bathtub with another bathtub on top of it, sealing him inside, so that MI5 couldn't read his brain. No joke.

[edit on 3-7-2009 by Lazyninja]

Originally posted by Lazyninja

When someone says there's no proof of Alien spacecraft I do think that's an illogical position. Nobody has ever claimed there's proof but there's evidence that says alien spacecraft exists.

There's a big difference.

Let's not get into the dissection of the difference between evidence and proof. Everyone knows what the difference is, but for the sake of expediency the words are used interchangeably.

[edit on 3-7-2009 by Lazyninja]

Of course there not interchangeable. The skeptic wants them to be so they can debate an illogical absolute.

The fact is, if I say I have proof that's a different standard than I have evidence.

The skeptic can only debate these things if you can say "it could be anything." That's an illogical position. In these abduction cases they didn't see "just anything" they are telling you exactly what they saw.

In mass sightings they didn't see "just anything" they tell you what they saw.

The skeptic doesn't have any evidence to support their opinion so they have to elevate a plethora of possibilities to all being equally possible. This is illogical but without it skeptics would not have any argument.

Originally posted by Matrix Rising

The skeptic doesn't have any evidence to support their opinion so they have to elevate a plethora of possibilities to all being equally possible. This is illogical but without it skeptics would not have any argument.

Fortunately for you, skeptics cannot tell you what to think. All they do, is tell you how they think.

It really comes down to how badly you want to force your opinion onto someone else. Once you realize you don't have to, you won't be bothered about this issue.

"The skeptic/debunker wants to remain in a state of limbo forever."

Erm... I'll try to mind my language here so as not to get thrown off or my post deleted but what the heck do you mean.

As a skeptic I read hundreds of posts here and reply accordingly.

If it is total useless rubbish that I see (Statues of Angels from the moon etc) I call it out as such. I simply don't want to see ATS become a trashy stupid website

If it is the sort of post like "100% proff of existence of aliens" and there is nothing to back it up - I call it out

If it is purely a text driven sighting - I read it with interest, but it cannot be proven in any way.

If it is some crappy picture of a light in the sky - it's not worth my effort.

And if it's a video - I try to constructively critique it.

If it weren't for skeptics this site would fall apart - a load of "oohs and ahhs" and you'd all be blowing smoke.

Don't you want - like me - to be blown away - to read comments that cannot poke holes in the evidence.

Shouldn't we all - always - question things - by trying to poke holes in things we get to the truth - if I comment on a post and others post new evidence - additional testimony - additional photos/videos - does not that help further the cause.

Honestly there are people who do just try to bash and smack everyone down - but a true skeptic is trying to poke holes in the evidence - and - if he cannot poke holes - well the evidence becomes stronger, and the skeptic says "cool - this is good stuff".

I simply cannot wait to see a post that I 100% think is clear evidence of something showing intelligent extra terrestrial life... but so far - zip, nada, nothing that really comes close.

I just hope that you try to understand my mindset.

TTFN

Say what you want about skeptics and "debunkers" (what the heck is a debunker anyway, lol?). If they aren't around you guys would just be sitting here agreeing with each other all day long and not getting anything done.

But I will say this, if this subject was represented by the skeptics rather than the believers this whole time, it wouldn't be the laughing stock that it currently is. The giggle factor would be reduced to a minimum.

I personally wouldn't worry about the skeptics/debunkers. If the evidence for something has decent amount of merit they will be the ones you want on your side.

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Posts directly about other members are NOT On Topic

Thank you

Semper

Originally posted by IgnoreTheFacts
I personally wouldn't worry about the skeptics/debunkers. If the evidence for something has decent amount of merit they will be the ones you want on your side.

Threads such as this are born of insecurity. This is evidenced in that instead of presenting and defending a case, it attacks skeptics because they may, sometime, somewhere, challenge a case. The argument is built on a straw man, and ironically demands skeptics conform to this straw man. A criticism is made and a question asked of skeptics; when these are answered it is ignored because it does not conform to the straw man. Ultimately, it is an intellectually dishonest argument. At best it operates on a negative proof fallacy; that is proving skeptics are illogical will somehow prove ETs exist. At worst it seeks to demonize and marginalize skeptics.

Threads such as this do nothing to promote positive discussion or our understanding of the phenomenon. It is in the best interest of everyone that we not engage in them.

[edit on 4-7-2009 by DoomsdayRex]

Now the skeptics want to shut down all debate.

It's okay to debate existence because then the skeptic can live within their illogical arguments. When you questions those illogical arguments the skeptics/debunkers want the mods to shut down debate.

Typical.