North Korean Rocket Capable Of Hitting Half The U.S: Scientists, page 2
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reply posted on 2-7-2009 @ 11:47 AM by ElectroMagnetic Multivers
Originally posted by ElectricUniverse
reply to post by WestPoint23


We believe that its extremely unlikely that these technologies were indigenously produced by North Korea.

Pyongyang has released a video showing the launcher shortly before and during launch; these pictures allowed us to determine the relative sizes of the launcher's stages. Assuming the first-stage diameter is 2.4 meters, which is the diameter that has long been discussed for the first stage of the Taepodong-2 missile, fixes the rest of the dimensions. These are shown here PDF. Based on the dimensions of the stages, we can estimate their masses using estimates of the structure mass and the density of the propellant.

Overall, the launcher has a length of roughly 30 meters and a mass of 80-85 metric tons. We believe the first stage uses a cluster of four Nodong engines housed in a single missile casing and sharing a common fuel tank. The Nodong engine is essentially a scaled-up version of the engine used in the Soviet Scud-B missile. This engine is likely of Russian origin.

www.thebulletin.org...

[edit on 2-7-2009 by ElectricUniverse]

Thank you so much for this. This is a large piece in my personal puzzle. If you would go to this thread:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

And read my post on the 2nd page, was the last post.

I personally believe this is the beginning of a propaganda war against Russia and then possibly even China. Imagine for a moment, that a nuke actually does hit the US, what would happen? My guess would be the same thin that happened for 911. Incredible, JUSTIFIED public outrage, a demand for NK to be brought to justice.

Gone.

Now, what if it was discovered that the missile, that made this attack succesful was made by the Russians? Would you not cry for further justice? They had a hand in this just as much as NK, you'd think.

Thank you again.

EMM


reply posted on 2-7-2009 @ 11:50 AM by ElectricUniverse
reply to post by miasria


Let's say there is a 50/50 chance that such a missile can reach the U.S.

Are you claiming you are willing to play Russian roulette with a crazy dictator that is getting help from Russia, and China?....



reply posted on 2-7-2009 @ 12:06 PM by ElectricUniverse
Originally posted by ElectroMagnetic Multivers
...................
I personally believe this is the beginning of a propaganda war against Russia and then possibly even China. Imagine for a moment, that a nuke actually does hit the US, what would happen? My guess would be the same thin that happened for 911. Incredible, JUSTIFIED public outrage, a demand for NK to be brought to justice.


What if this is a ploy by Russia and China to further weaken the U.S.?

There is ample evidence that they have been doing this, and they are a big player on the "generated economic crisis".

The Russian government, as well as the Chinese government want for a new World economy, dominated by a currency in which they both will be the mayor players/powers.

We know that mostly the Russians were behind Iraq WMD program, and they have been arming Iran alongside North Korea. The Chinese are doing the same but they are more careful than the Russians.



Originally posted by ElectroMagnetic Multivers
Now, what if it was discovered that the missile, that made this attack succesful was made by the Russians? Would you not cry for further justice? They had a hand in this just as much as NK, you'd think.

Thank you again.

EMM


No, thank you, but..

The U.S. government fired John A. Shaw, who was Deputy Undersecretary of Defense for International Technology Security, and in a variety of other senior U.S. Government positions. Actually he was asked to resign, which is almost the same thing.

The reason given by the government for doing this was that Shaw "exceeded his authority in disclosing the information" about having found proof that the Russian government had moved Iraq's WMD.

Mr. Shaw was responsible for tracking Saddam Hussein's weapons programs before and after the 2003 liberation of Iraq. He stated in October 2004, March 2005, and again in February 2006 that it was the Russians who helped Saddam Hussein to "clean up" his weapons of mass destruction stockpiles "to prevent the United States from discovering them." [2]

In particular, on February 18, 2006, Shaw told a conference at The Intelligence Summit in Alexandria, Virginia, that "The short answer to the question of where the WMD Saddam bought from the Russians went was that they went" to Syria and the Beqaa Valley in Lebanon, Kenneth R. Timmerman reported February 19, 2006, in NewsMax. "They were moved by Russian Spetsnaz (special forces) units out of uniform, that were specifically sent to Iraq to move the weaponry and eradicate any evidence of its existence," Shaw said.

After accusing Russian GRU of helping Saddam to remove his WMD, Shaw was asked to resign for exceeding his authority in disclosing the information, a charge he called "specious." Shaw was forced out of office when his position was eliminated on December 10, 2004.[1], [2].

Shaw stated that he went public with his comments regarding Russia moving Iraq's WMD when he did to help George W. Bush who he felt was being "crucified" by the revelations that over 350 tons of explosives had gone missing in Iraq as a result of the U.S. invasion [3]. He said "If I had not had the openly hostile environment in [Pentagon public affairs], I would have moved the story differently. Getting the truth out instantly was more important than process."

en.wikipedia.org...

There were also other sources which corroborated what Shaw had to say. Even Saddam's second in command of Iraq's Air forces, Georges Sada, had also given testimony that he personally saw how planes were being converted to move WMD out of Iraq.

Former very high ranking Russian military defectors told us, before the war started, that Russia had plans in place to move WMD out of countries like IRaq when the U.S. got too close.

Not to mention that the U.S. DID NOTHING when we found proof that the Russian government was passing our troop movements and other secret information to Saddam's regime before and during the war in Iraq.

IMO, this is another ploy by Russia, and China to further weaken the U.S., and it is a serious threat either way, whether we do something about it, or we don't.




[edit on 2-7-2009 by ElectricUniverse]


reply posted on 2-7-2009 @ 12:16 PM by apacheman
reply to post by silo13


I stipulated that it would hurt.

Could North Korea invade the US?

No.

After using up their arsenal, would they continue to be a threat?

No.

If they attack would that be a bad thing?

Yes.

Would it be worth it to fight a war there?

No.

By all means, if their missiles can be stopped via ABL or other antimissile tech, stop them.

However, I think you miss my point. North Korea can't materially harm the US, except for maybe nuking a city or two with very small nukes, basically tactical nukes. Very bad for the targets, but in the cold calculus of war, not much damage to the nation as a whole.

What would be damaging would be to waste our limited strength attacking what is essentially a worthless target. What do you get from your efforts if you win? Nothing at all: no resources, no improvement in safety: remember, they'd be out of ammo and unable to create more. So what would the benefit be to get embroiled there?

Look at it this way: the loss of an indivdual soldier is very bad for the soldier, but doesn't effect the army much. You can feel bad for him and his family, but individually he doesn't make much difference. Nagasaki and Hiroshima were very bad for the Japanese who lived there, but the last time I checked, Japan was still in business.

You need to look at the larger picture to avoid large mistakes. Trying to punish North Korea for nuking us by taking over their country would be a very large mistake. I've fought those folks before, they are absolutely no fun and there's no reasoning with them.

If a rattlesnake bites me, I'm not going to go into a nest of them to punish the one who bit me: I'll take take of the wound, get antivenom, and be more careful in the future. So I stand by my assessment: Use a few cruise missiles to wreck the very few worthwhile targets, then ignore them.

[edit on 2-7-2009 by apacheman]



reply posted on 2-7-2009 @ 12:19 PM by ElectroMagnetic Multivers
Originally posted by ElectricUniverse
reply to post by miasria


Let's say there is a 50/50 chance that such a missile can reach the U.S.

Are you claiming you are willing to play Russian roulette with a crazy dictator that is getting help from Russia, and China?....


Lol, I personally believe that tey are not getting help from Russia and China, but that this is being made out early on, so they can turn around and say,

"Well, we thought it may be back then, but it wasn't a real threat, it was unsubstantiated"

I really do hope that I am wrong, otherwise things are going to get bad, like World War bad.

EMM


reply posted on 2-7-2009 @ 12:23 PM by Zosynspiracy
reply to post by BLUE ARMS


Powderised? You're a real genius you know that! You think Russia, and China are just going to let the US nuke the crap out of NK right in their own back yard and deal with all the nuclear fallout? And I guess SK wouldn't be affected at all if we decided to "powderise" NK. You sound like a dumb teenager.


reply posted on 2-7-2009 @ 12:30 PM by ElectroMagnetic Multivers
Originally posted by ElectricUniverse

What if this is a ploy by Russia and China to further weaken the U.S.?


Always a possibility, but it isn't the Russians that have slowly been creeping onto American/NATO territory. As for the Economic crisis, I won't deny that Russians may have had a hand in it, note, Russians, not the Russians. For me, the people who do this are international, from many countries, intent on control, countries and nationalities mean nothing to them.

The Russian government, as well as the Chinese government want for a new World economy, dominated by a currency in which they both will be the mayor players/powers.


Yes they do, but so do NATO/US, in fact, the US has had it for the past 40-50 years, it is only now being 'reshaped'.

We know that mostly the Russians were behind Iraq WMD program, and they have been arming Iran alongside North Korea. The Chinese are doing the same but they are more careful than the Russians.


Lol, as far as I have read, the US/NATO armed Iran decades ago, Iran are now a part of the SCO, why shouldn't Russia hel it's allies? Would you raise this much noise over the US sending troops to the UK? As for North Korea, I'm not too sure, I'll have to get back to you on that one.

No, thank you, but..

The U.S. government fired John A. Shaw, who was Deputy Undersecretary of Defense for International Technology Security, and in a variety of other senior U.S. Government positions. Actually he was asked to resign, which is almost the same thing.

The reason given by the government for doing this was that Shaw "exceeded his authority in disclosing the information" about having found proof that the Russian government had moved Iraq's WMD.

Mr. Shaw was responsible for tracking Saddam Hussein's weapons programs before and after the 2003 liberation of Iraq. He stated in October 2004, March 2005, and again in February 2006 that it was the Russians who helped Saddam Hussein to "clean up" his weapons of mass destruction stockpiles "to prevent the United States from discovering them." [2]

In particular, on February 18, 2006, Shaw told a conference at The Intelligence Summit in Alexandria, Virginia, that "The short answer to the question of where the WMD Saddam bought from the Russians went was that they went" to Syria and the Beqaa Valley in Lebanon, Kenneth R. Timmerman reported February 19, 2006, in NewsMax. "They were moved by Russian Spetsnaz (special forces) units out of uniform, that were specifically sent to Iraq to move the weaponry and eradicate any evidence of its existence," Shaw said.

After accusing Russian GRU of helping Saddam to remove his WMD, Shaw was asked to resign for exceeding his authority in disclosing the information, a charge he called "specious." Shaw was forced out of office when his position was eliminated on December 10, 2004.[1], [2].

Shaw stated that he went public with his comments regarding Russia moving Iraq's WMD when he did to help George W. Bush who he felt was being "crucified" by the revelations that over 350 tons of explosives had gone missing in Iraq as a result of the U.S. invasion [3]. He said "If I had not had the openly hostile environment in [Pentagon public affairs], I would have moved the story differently. Getting the truth out instantly was more important than process."

en.wikipedia.org...

There were also other sources which corroborated what Shaw had to say. Even Saddam's second in command of Iraq's Air forces, Georges Sada, had also given testimony that he personally saw how planes were being converted to move WMD out of Iraq.

Former very high ranking Russian military defectors told us, before the war started, that Russia had plans in place to move WMD out of countries like IRaq when the U.S. got too close.

Not to mention that the U.S. DID NOTHING when we found proof that the Russian government was passing our troop movements and other secret information to Saddam's regime before and during the war in Iraq.

IMO, this is another ploy by Russia, and China to further weaken the U.S., and it is a serious threat either way, whether we do something about it, or we don't.


That is quite interesting, but it could be nothing more than propaganda, as far as I know, WMD's where never found in Iraq, they have never provided evidence of WMD's. I would like them to do this first, before I start pointing fingers at who made them and sold them.

Not saying your wrong, just that, to me, this seems more plausible.

EMM


reply posted on 2-7-2009 @ 12:43 PM by apacheman
reply to post by ElectricUniverse


Sure did miss my point: I didn't say "allow" them to hit us. In the line immediately above the one you quoted, I said "by all means, stop them..."

What I'm saying is that retaliation isn't worth it.

And it isn't.
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