My Only God Thread. Why, If God Is Our Father, Doent He Intervene So We Dont Die Or Suffer?, page 5

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reply posted on 1-7-2009 @ 09:55 PM by tinfoilman

reply to post by LSDeviant

No of course not. We couldn't make an informed decision without knowing of deceit. That's why he gave us the choice. To choose to learn deceit or to not. But the only way to learn what deceit is, is to be tricked. There is no other way to learn. Especially if you believe Adam and Eve were the first. There was no one else to teach them. There was only one way to learn trickery and that was to be tricked.

How else would you teach someone to distinguish between what is deceit and evil and what is good if they never experienced deceit? This is how one learns to make an informed decision. How would you expect someone to make informed decisions if they'd never had any practice at it? So, they needed to start making decisions before they were good at it.

I remember when I was little my older relatives playing tricks on me just because I would fall for them. But guess what? I learned how to spot a trickster. Are you saying they were evil and should have just let me go into the world thinking no one would ever trick me?

But God did give us a choice. Free will, the choice. They already had free will before they ate from the tree. All they got from the tree was the knowledge of good and evil. And it looks like they got a pretty good lesson in it too.

[edit on 1-7-2009 by tinfoilman]

reply posted on 1-7-2009 @ 10:05 PM by LSDeviant

reply to post by tinfoilman

But you see, there would have been no evil, trickery, deceit, death, or pain in child-bearing if man were never cast out from the Garden, I hear. So why did we need to know about this? It was completely irrelevant to life as it was.

He already put the tree there, we already had the choice; why goad us in to it?

edit to add; done with ATS for the night, will try to respond tomorrow if thread is still alive. Feels like I've been performing CPR on it for the last 3/4ths of a page, tho...

[edit on 1-7-2009 by LSDeviant]

reply posted on 1-7-2009 @ 10:11 PM by bagari

As has already been said, God is a creator, not a babysitter. Also, it is the hard times and painful times that make us better people. In the end I think he has a hands-off approach, allowing us to experience everything that life has to offer.

reply posted on 1-7-2009 @ 10:26 PM by tinfoilman

reply to post by LSDeviant

Yes we have suffering in the world because of our ignorance and the consequences of our bad choices.

For example we have pain and die because our medical science is not perfect. Some have nothing because people who have everything choose to be greedy and take all that they can.

But look how far our science has come! Look how much more we know about our universe! Look at all the stuff we know that we would not have had God not given us the decision to eat from the "tree of knowledge". Without it we'd still just be clueless with no thought of our own.

As I said, we can't deny we agree with God's decision when we ourselves go to other countries like my country has done in Iraq and try to give them democracy. We believe choice is better for people because with the ability to suffer from our bad decisions we learn. We get better. We adapt. We become smarter. We evolve spiritually instead of just physically.

But I said that's what death is for. So one day you can leave this physical world after you've done your part and have your chance to live with God without suffering too.

Why would God send us out into the mean mean world all by ourselves? Well, do you send your children to school to learn or do you yourself keep them locked up in a closet where they could never be harmed on the playground?

Yet again we ask why God did what he did and then we continually turn around and do the exact same things with our own children. Before asking why God did what he did simply ask yourself why you do what you do.

EDIT:

Why trick us into it? I don't know if he did. I don't know what the serpent was. We could have a whole nother thread about what exactly the serpent was. It wasn't really a trick though. We were given both sides. We were warned to not eat from the tree by the party on the left and told to eat it by the party on the right. It was up to us to make the decision. But we had to learn there are consequences to our decisions and it's those consequences that make us better people.

[edit on 1-7-2009 by tinfoilman]

[edit on 1-7-2009 by tinfoilman]

reply posted on 1-7-2009 @ 10:35 PM by helen670

Originally posted by dgtempe
I never post about religion. I grew up Catholic but i dont know much about religion.

I am wondering, instead of sending us fire and brimstone, why doesn't a compassionate God intervene in a way that will not kill, men women and children, a planet that will hit and blow us out of orbit, and horrible things like that???

He made us, damn it. Why did he make us FLAWED. Its HIS fault.

There's nothing compassionate here that i can see.

Hi dgtempe/

Who said God made us 'flawed'?
God created man perfect and all good.
One commandment He gave to man....If you EAT, you will DIE!
Therefore....DEATH came to all of mankind!
That IS the ONLY flaw!
Sin means to ***miss the mark,to do follow our path,inplace of the Lords.
The Resurrection proves that ONCE again, MAN has been given a choice to be with God as before the Fall!
The Scriptures state quite clearly that the "wages of sin is death" (Romans 6:23)and death. (I Corinthians 15:21)...This is ALL that man inherited from Adam and Eve!
When we choose to sin, we do so on our OWN accord, not ADAMS,not Eves!
Not the wages of some sin, but the wages of all sin.
When Jesus Christ came,He ABOLISHED sin(DEATH) and we HAVE a choice whether to Follow Him or not!
Sin...To miss the mark!
To not follow through with Gods teachings!
The teachings of the Apostles were taught By God Himself!

As for God intervening...we do have a choice in what we do with our lives?
Do you believe that if God intervened with every ones SIN,there would POSSIBLY be one human alive?

Fire and Brimstone...

Thats another subject altogether..
Sin is what caused DEATH....this is what passed on to each and every human being alive.
It was A break away FROM GOD!
Hades(hell) was created for the fallen angels and the Devil....they will no longer have communion with God...no longer be able to be and share God.
In Scripture Hell .... "For our God is a consuming fire", (Heb. 12:29).
The very fire which purifies gold, also consumes wood.
Precious metals shine in it like the sun, rubbish burns with black smoke.
All are in the same fire of Love.
Some shine and others become black and dark.
In the same furnace steel shines like the sun, whereas clay turns dark and is hardened like stone. The difference is in man, not in God.
The difference is conditioned by the free choice of man, which God respects absolutely. God's judgment is the revelation of the reality which is in man

Thus Saint Macarius writes, "And as the kingdom of darkness, and sin, are hidden in the soul until the Day of Resurrection,
when the bodies also of sinners shall be covered with the darkness that is now hidden in the soul,
so also the Kingdom of Light,
and the Heavenly Image,
Jesus Christ,
now mystically enlighten the soul, and reign in the soul of the saints, but are hidden from the eyes of men... until the Day of Resurrection; but then the body also shall be covered and glorified with the Light of the Lord, which is now in the man's soul [from this earthly life], that the body also may reign with the soul which from now receives the Kingdom of Christ and rests and is enlightened with eternal light" (Homily 2).
River of Fire~

Hope that helps you out.

ICXC NIKA
helen
EDIT....***added a sentence relevant to what I had to say!

[edit on 7/1/2009 by helen670]

reply posted on 1-7-2009 @ 11:15 PM by randyvs

because death is nothing to
him. he proved that
on the cross. any more bright questions?

reply posted on 1-7-2009 @ 11:21 PM by theobjective

My Only God Thread. Why, If God Is Our Father, Doent He Intervene So We Dont Die Or Suffer?

He does intervene, we are ants in comparison, talking to an ant is difficult.
On that same token why he does what he does and let bad things happen is probably for the greater good and the advancement of his creation.

Example: you program somthing with AI, it then has to eventually learn for itself and it can eventually perform tasks independantly. Death is a form of progression to higher conciousness / realm of existance ?

Suffering is to learn from, there is great reward from it, 1) you learn a life lesson, 2) it makes able to cope thus progressing in learnning 3) remember your creator - Pray ?

I never post about religion. I grew up Catholic but i dont know much about religion.

I am a muslim i try and understand all faiths for personal growth and knowledge and for cutural understanding.

I am wondering, instead of sending us fire and brimstone, why doesnt a compassionate God intervene in a way that will not kill, men women and children, a planet that will hit and blow us out of orbit, and horrible things like that???

Well be a good person in this life and if and when it does happen , you'll be saved by your kindness to strangers, good deeds, spritual accomplishment, and remembering your creator. HELPING THOSE LESS FORTUNATE THAN YOU is of the most importance

Fire and brimstone sperates wheat from chaff, the good the bad, the bold the beautiful etc..you catch my drift.

He made us, damn it. Why did he make us FLAWED. Its HIS fault.

Yes he made us, IN HIS OWN IMAGE !!!!!!!!! - we can be merciful, compassionate, creative, giving, taking, loving, vengeful, protecting etc

We have these flaws as the final obstacle to overcome imo, to be rid of them is to be pious and devout. Think , to stop being materialistic,
to stop greed, to stop envy, to stop pride. with out these things there would be no WAR, FAMINE, POVERTY, CRUELTY, ILLNESS

There's nothing compassionate here that i can see.

Well the sun is the right distance away from the earth not sear your flesh when it rises, they are in perfect orbits to provide life building qualities.

The earth naturally produces stuffs that you may consume.
Substances that your hands didnt make Some taste amazing hint

,
The rain falls frequently to quench vegitation, Springs gush forth from the ground that you can drink from.

These are favours of our LORD.

He is the MOST Compassionate and MOST Mercifull
If you make the effort to find(or go to him) him, he will make the effort too
This is what we blv, im sure most do too

reply posted on 1-7-2009 @ 11:26 PM by Divinorumus

reply to post by dgtempe

Come on, there has to be suffering and pain in the world so that joy and happiness has something to contrast itself with. Who would be able to recognize love if not for hate? How would we know it's hot without having known cold. How could there be an up without a down? How could we distinguish good if not for evil? I'd probably be a little whiny complainer (like so many others I've noticed lately) right now if not for the fact I can see so many others in the world truly do have it a lot worse off. In fact, without the poor, I probably wouldn't be able to realize how lucky I am compared to others in the world.

Come on, good goes hand in hand with the bad, it's a necessary thing. If not for suffering, how would we be able to recognize when we are having a good time?

reply posted on 1-7-2009 @ 11:29 PM by menguard

God doesn't make one suffer, suffering is the lack of information to act correctly, but to find the right act in every second of the day is a balancing act to comprehend.

reply posted on 1-7-2009 @ 11:46 PM by Totakeke

reply to post by Divinorumus

We used to live in perfect paradise; we didn't need evil in the world to know that everything was perfect. But then Adam and Eve ate the fruit and fell into sin.

reply posted on 1-7-2009 @ 11:52 PM by LoneGunMan

reply to post by dgtempe

Hey DG how have you been? Sounds like your a bit down...cheer up better times are coming.

The age old question...why does God let this all happen?

I have only read your post and not the thread, no need.

We have a journey of the soul we all have to do, this is how we grow and become something greater. Physical life is crazy crash course school. We live many lives, we have all experiences living as a human has to offer, this is the only way and our soul selves decide with great courage to sign up for this. Knowing it will be heartbreaking and once we start the ride, we do not get out of the cycle of incarnating until our sojourn has completed.

The reason so many of the Abrahamic beliefs get so lost is that this is not taught and is ignored. So when things get really bad its hard to understand why God would let this happen. It makes no sense from a singular life point of view. How could God let this happen to my one shot at life?

Our higher selves wouldn't learn much if life was always a garden party. We learn most from our sorrow and pain. Even more than love can teach us, the fire tempers us and burns that lesson right in.

The good times will return.

reply posted on 1-7-2009 @ 11:58 PM by dgtempe

reply to post by Divinorumus

Well now, thats a nice and sensible take on the whole thing.

As for the rest of you, i'm listening and thank you.

reply posted on 2-7-2009 @ 12:14 AM by stevedel0

The only way you can understand God is to do so without limits. No limits at all, not even one. It goes beyond what most popular religions try to dumb you down into. So that you feel like you have a purpose while you feed their wallets. Go ahed and believe these religions, but I can assure you this. There is life beyond earth, intelligent life even. There are other dimensions, it couldn't be otherwise. These things exist elsewhere, but what these religions try to make you believe is that there's only heaven and hell, only good and sin. This is not true. These are limits. Why would you want a limit? Would you rather run a race without weights on, or would you rather want to run the race weightless? These limits are like weights to make you easier to beat, because there are others in the race that want to win. These limits from religion make you feel guilty mostly I suppose.

I know to stop believing in something that you have believed in for such a long time, before you knew better, is difficult. I used to be catholic, I stopped because I did not have any proof of it, but then I had a difficult time in my life and believing in Jesus helped, believing that there's someone that will save you. Now I realize however, the truth is that there's nothing you need to be saved from. I suppose you can say I became spiritually mature.

reply posted on 2-7-2009 @ 12:21 AM by Equinox99

Your belief in God is a misconception. People believe God should get off his lazy ass and help us out. In fact he gave us the tools to help ourselves and people around us. We have free will and with this life we can experience what it feels like to sin. When we travel into the next life we can reminisce about how tragic things were in this life and not do them again.

I believe the fire and brimstone is actually true. When you pass away think of the fire as a cleanser for your spirit. Think of it as decontamination and reconstruction of your true life.

This may not make sense now...but I hope sometime it does.

reply posted on 2-7-2009 @ 12:25 AM by scubagravy

Im not religious, but heres my take,

Maybe god lives on Niburu, one cannot exist without the other

OR

Perhaps he is our adopted father, we belong to nature, Mother Nature that is. God and Mother Nature split long ago in an ugly divorce, they are still going through a bitter dispute over who gets the children.

Hence we all have different beliefs.

Hot Tip: Believe in yourself....the rest will fall into place.

reply posted on 2-7-2009 @ 12:31 AM by Darth Logan

reply to post by dgtempe

I would assume God cannot intervene with free will. Sorry if someone already brought it up but it's just my opinon. And I agree with them.

reply posted on 2-7-2009 @ 01:12 AM by favouriteslave

Ah but heaven was a place of suffering before man was even created. There was WAR in heaven that led to the Angel of Light (knowledge) being cast out along with all his followers. It sounds like a very scary place and I cannot figure out why others are so anxious to get there.

Originally posted by ELECTRICkoolaidZOMBIEtest
wow...no one has yet to answer my question regarding why we need to be tested and/or why we suffer.

if theres no suffering in heaven, then all of it here on earth was in vain.

please someone try to give me a reasonable answer and not just an answer that is basically a religious fortune cookie fortune.

for example, that long "A good father..." one.

a good father would not lock his child in the basement and let a psychopath torture the child for all eternity for not loving the father enough.

reply posted on 2-7-2009 @ 01:17 AM by Majorwood

So god made us in his image i guess he didnt like neanderthals look too much.Dinosaurs what was that all about just a big waste of time or just to get oil brewing .So when man started and was around for a few centuries they had there gods or god, there beliefs were all over the place.So what Im trying to say is if i were GOD i would have started from day one the Babylonians ,Greeks ,Aztecs would be worship me and me only what took so long for him or her to show up.I would have sent Jesus way before the Romans to spread the word. The bible would have been alot different with the real history of the dawn of man. It makes no since that this all happened at certain time in the middle east.

reply posted on 2-7-2009 @ 01:19 AM by favouriteslave

The apple and Eve claim is mute when dealing with a omnipotent, omniscient and all knowing god. He knew Eve would eat of the apple far before he even created her. Either he is not all knowing or just cruel. Original sin is upon Gods head not womans.

Originally posted by tinfoilman
reply to post by LSDeviant

Yes we have suffering in the world because of our ignorance and the consequences of our bad choices.

For example we have pain and die because our medical science is not perfect. Some have nothing because people who have everything choose to be greedy and take all that they can.

But look how far our science has come! Look how much more we know about our universe! Look at all the stuff we know that we would not have had God not given us the decision to eat from the "tree of knowledge". Without it we'd still just be clueless with no thought of our own.

As I said, we can't deny we agree with God's decision when we ourselves go to other countries like my country has done in Iraq and try to give them democracy. We believe choice is better for people because with the ability to suffer from our bad decisions we learn. We get better. We adapt. We become smarter. We evolve spiritually instead of just physically.

But I said that's what death is for. So one day you can leave this physical world after you've done your part and have your chance to live with God without suffering too.

Why would God send us out into the mean mean world all by ourselves? Well, do you send your children to school to learn or do you yourself keep them locked up in a closet where they could never be harmed on the playground?

Yet again we ask why God did what he did and then we continually turn around and do the exact same things with our own children. Before asking why God did what he did simply ask yourself why you do what you do.

EDIT:

Why trick us into it? I don't know if he did. I don't know what the serpent was. We could have a whole nother thread about what exactly the serpent was. It wasn't really a trick though. We were given both sides. We were warned to not eat from the tree by the party on the left and told to eat it by the party on the right. It was up to us to make the decision. But we had to learn there are consequences to our decisions and it's those consequences that make us better people.

[edit on 1-7-2009 by tinfoilman]

[edit on 1-7-2009 by tinfoilman]

reply posted on 2-7-2009 @ 01:22 AM by Totakeke

reply to post by favouriteslave

Just because God knows everything doesn't mean we don't get free will. Even if He knew that man would fall into sin (and He probably knew) that doesn't mean we still didn't get to choose.

[edit on 2-7-2009 by Totakeke]