My Only God Thread. Why, If God Is Our Father, Doent He Intervene So We Dont Die Or Suffer?, page 4


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reply posted on 1-7-2009 @ 06:42 PM by CoolBlackHole
We can’t answer the OP question without taking into account the purpose/role of the “elite” that are – obviously - on the way to destroy the planet. Two theories:

Theory 1 (“hidden hand” version): The elite assert they’re “only” following the creator’s instructions to build a “boot camp” for souls, i.e. corruption, wars, desctruction, suffering ultimatively serve the purpose to help discern/develop “good fish” from/and “bad fish”.

Theory 2: The above is just a lame and false pretense. The Elite never received such an instruction (or had one in the beginning but have lost orientation and since long begun to only serve their own purposes and greed), i.e. corruption, wars, destruction, suffering ultimatively only serve the gruesome greed of the elite themselves.

Arguments:

- Suffering is not suffering. Earth life is not learning to “ride a bike”, neither is it a “good father” relation. We have to discern between an “educational” world and a world full of actually SENSELESS suffering and destruction, as on Earth now. There’s a serious difference between the two. The turmoil on Earth is not educational, the suffering is much too huge/bad, thus most humans have NO chance/choice to ever become “enlightened” or “develop”. And that CAN’T be "god's"/the prime creator's will. Simple and plain.

- As many of us know, most human soul memories are brutally erased after death, including(!!!!) those of individuals who led a peaceful/loving/decent life. Now this is a very good one. We hear the elite proxies blabbermouthing on spiritual enlightenment and “inner correction” (e.g. in the videos on page 2), but at the same time they themselves PREVENT all spiritual enlightenment by covertly deleting all human soul memories. Reincarnation WITH memory of former lives would be the best and fastest way to spiritually develop. In contrast, a being who’s former life’s memories are repeatedly erased simply cannot spiritually develop. A being who’s memories are deleted time and again, has no free will. Deleting a soul’s life memories is an inexcusable evil crime, nothing but the murdering of the soul (also see ELECTRICkoolaidZOMBI’s post: www.abovetopsecret.com...)

Conclusion: Theory 1 is wrong. There COULD be a concept of “educational experiences” but unfortunately it is not taking place on Earth. The destruction and turmoil on Earth primarily serves the interest and greed of the elite. Hence the alleged educational purpose of life is a blatant lie and treacherous pretense of the “elite”, to keep humans quiet (“the best slaves are the one who don’t know they’re slaves”). And I assume exactly that is what the OP wanted to express: there is SUCH an amount of senseless destruction on Earth it simply cannot serve educational purposes.

Now the prime creator’s stance:
- He might just not care.
- Or even approve the senseless turmoil (“at least some educational effect”)
- Or, on the other hand, he might not approve of the situation at all but just refrained from interfering for SOME time. Which would mean the super greedy and super ruthless elite (and their supporters) might get what they deserve some day.


(There might be other theories/options/variants, but the above are the basic ones.)


[edit on 1-7-2009 by CoolBlackHole]


reply posted on 1-7-2009 @ 06:52 PM by newworld
reply to post by Rockstrongo37


I am tolerant, in fact two of my closest friends are Jehova witnesses (as weird as that sounds).
I just find these beliefs annoying when they are said all the time (such as mormons knocking on your door, religious family members who can't stop talking about their religion trying to convert you, or society who would discriminate against you simply for not believing in the same crap they do).
anyway, sorry if i offended any religious person out there. I'm simply stating my opinion, that's all



reply posted on 1-7-2009 @ 06:55 PM by octotom
reply to post by peskyhumans


I thought God was supposed to love all of his children? Granted, murdering Abel was a bad thing, but if God loved Cain it could have been avoided.

God does love his creation. This story has nothing to do with God's love though. Apparently, God had a requirement for the sacrifice that Cain paid no attention to. Therefore, Cain's sacrifice was unacceptable. This made Cain angry and is an example of letting sin get the better of us.

Why would God ever ask one of his children to kill one of their children? I was amazed Abraham didn't tell God to go screw himself. Granted, it may have been a test of faith, but by refusing he would have also demonstrated morality and compassion, both of which are traits I believe are more important than blind faith.

Obeying God is an important thing to do. We also must understand that God can't do anything that's wrong. Killing Isaac for no reason, would've been wrong. If you read the text carefully, Abraham seemed to believe that Isaac wasn't going to die. He told his servants that they both would return. You're correct that this story is a test of faith. We're supposed to trust God in everything--even the hardest of times. Not just when it's convenient or easy for us to do.

You shouldn't destroy entire cities of people unless they are really, REALLY evil. I can't help but wonder if they just had different culture and customs from the Christians.

As you read on in the Bible, you find out that they were incredibly evil.

The just thing to do would have been for Abraham to refuse the pharoah his wife, and ask God for help if he became violent.

Yes, that would've been the right thing to do. But Abraham didn't do what was right.

But then, how would have Abraham become rich enough to found a kingdom? This whole passage just reeks.

I don't understand why you say that Abraham was being assissted by God in his wrong doing. In any event, that's not the case. Abraham didn't found a kingdom. God promised Abraham that his descendants would be as numerous as the stars in the sky. Which was fulfilled in the nations of Israel/Ishmael's descendants. Even if Abraham was to found a kingdom, what would stop the God of the universe from working things together to allow it to happen?

From what I understand, God presents him with a new family, which I don't understand - people aren't replaceable.

In the Judeo-Christian thought, when someone dies, it's not the end. We expect to see our departed loved ones again. So, Job was probably expecting the same thing to--which can be seen through some subtleties in the text.

Anyways, yeah the Bible is a little screwed up. I can't believe how many people find insight and guidance from this book.

It is possible to get guidance from someone's bad example, no?


reply posted on 1-7-2009 @ 06:58 PM by Rockstrongo37
reply to post by newworld


Hey opinion is cool, but calling something "crap" that someone else treasures as "holy" isnt cool. And just remember smarter people than you or I, men and women through out history, scientists and common people have believed in an unseen God.


reply posted on 1-7-2009 @ 07:08 PM by tinfoilman
Alright I think God is real, but I'm not here to convince anyone that God is real. I'm just saying this is how my belief system works. What I write is not what I'm saying to you.

Please read this in the context of this what I tell myself in my head about it. So, just imagine this as talking to myself okay?

Why do we die? Seriously, how am I supposed to get to heaven if I don't die? Do I want to be stuck here forever? Especially since we suffer so badly here? Why would I want to live here forever? But (heaven|paradise|new earth) is probably a spiritual paradise. I can't get there while I'm trapped in this decaying, suffering, earth bound flesh prison.

So, why are we born? What's the point of even coming here? Why not straight to Heaven?

You can't have evil in paradise or it wouldn't be paradise. We know there is evil on this planet even if you don't believe in God. You can't have rapists and pedophiles and arsonists and murderers and thieves in paradise.

However, while God's people are here it gives us a chance to save them, treat them, heal them. Hopefully save them so they can go to Heaven too. We're here trying to save our boys behind enemy lines basically. Does that make sense? We're here to save as many as we can to get them off this planet too.

Why did God make us evil? Did he? I don't really know, but if you've ever seen someone abuse a child you can't deny there is evil. Where did it come from? Doesn't really matter. All that's important is that it is there. That's what we're trying to save people from. Themselves.

Hell, what's the deal with Hell? Well some people just don't get saved. Some men you just can't reach. Some don't want to be saved. Some people are just plain evil. Like Hitler. Do you want Hitler in your paradise?

So, what do you do with people like Hitler? Well you send them somewhere else right? We do the same thing. We take the rapists and pedophiles and arsonists and murderers and we put them in a place called prison right?

People say why would God make Hell if he was kind and loving? What we don't realize is we do the exact same thing. We create prisons and put the bad people in prison.

Hell is that prison, but Hell doesn't have any prison guards to keep it on lock down. Prison guards are the good guys right? They're supposed to keep it in check. Well in the spiritual world you can't have prison guards in Hell because they're the good guys and good guys don't go to Hell. They go to Heaven.

So, say you lived in a town with rapists and pedophiles and arsonists (especially arsonists) and murderers and there were no un-evil people in site anywhere?

What do you think that place would look like? What would you call that place? What word do you think would best describe a prison with no guards?

Hell is not much different than the solution we ourselves have come up with for evil. Our solution to evil. Separate those people and put them somewhere else, but that place soon becomes a hell all on its own. It's inevitable because evil is destruction. There's no other way you can look at it.

So why do we suffer? We're stuck on a planet that's ruled by corrupt politicians that we continue to give more power to every chance we get no matter how much they abuse it. It's inevitable as long as evil people walk the earth. They're gonna screw it up somehow.


[edit on 1-7-2009 by tinfoilman]

[edit on 1-7-2009 by tinfoilman]


reply posted on 1-7-2009 @ 07:10 PM by newworld
reply to post by octotom


as you say, it would be wiser to stay away from these threads. however, that is something I can't do. Here's the reason why:
in the real world (basically not this cybernetic world we all use to communicate) the religious groups run rampant trying to make themselves bigger and brainwashing more people. these religious groups make others believe that their mythology and blind fate, instead of scientifically proven facts or using their heads to question information, are the only way to find "truth".
these religious folks then run for political office, eventually tainting political systems and trying to make their beliefs into laws. no one who believes on their version of reality is treated fairly. Just look at the times when the catholic church was a world power, or just look at modern day islamic nations like Iraq. Religion and irrational beliefs have taken a hold of societies worldwide and this is starting to happen all over again around the world.

the religious groups always, without exceptions, make their presence known in places they are not wanted. as a result, i try combat this in any way i can, such as letting my opinion be heard in a forum in which my opinion can be sometimes counted as trolling.
so, even if my input and efforts to try to bring some sense into other's heads are meaningless, it never hurts to try. In addition, in a site dedicated to denying ignorance, it is always important to hear what the other side has to say, otherwise discussion and debate becomes non-existent.


reply posted on 1-7-2009 @ 07:14 PM by peskyhumans
reply to post by octotom


I don't remember there being a requirement for the sacrifice, just that Abel raised animals and lived a good life as a sheperd, and Cain grew vegetables and worked a hard life as a farmer. My guess is that godly offerings have to be made in blood?

Even if all other passages can be explained away, asking Abraham to kill his son was unacceptable. I would not kill in the name of god, even if he asked me too. He may send me to Hell if he wants.


reply posted on 1-7-2009 @ 08:23 PM by Fromabove
Originally posted by dgtempe
I never post about religion. I grew up Catholic but i dont know much about religion.

I am wondering, instead of sending us fire and brimstone, why doesnt a compassionate God intervene in a way that will not kill, men women and children, a planet that will hit and blow us out of orbit, and horrible things like that???

He made us, damn it. Why did he make us FLAWED. Its HIS fault.

There's nothing compassionate here that i can see.




It is not God's intention to send you fire and brimstone. To say "It's His fault" is incorrect. What mankind suffers he brought upon himself. Death never entered the word until man said "I don't want you" and decided to listen to a fallen rebellious angel instead. For the most part, it is this creature and not God that is responsible for most of the suffering. He has authority given to him by man himself when he chose him as leader and lord. Once, the Earth was the sole dominion of man under God. A good place where mankind could live life to the fullest of health and life without end. But a toxin of evil rebellious knowledge was presented to him and he took the bait and died, first to God and then in the body.

What God did do for you is make an escape. Since God's law cannot be broken, it needed to be paid in full to satisfy the penalty for rebellion. Yes, every person on Earth was condemned to death for sin that was inherited from Adam and Eve, and that's where Jesus comes in. Jesus came to Earth, lived life as a human being, kept God's law, and was then crucified by His enemies. Since it was not possible to hold Him, death and hell had to release Him and He arose again to live forever.

The penalty of the law still needs to be satisfied, but the choice of how it gets satisfied is ours. Jesus stood in our place of death so that we can accept His gift of life. It's a good exchange, one only needs to say "Yes Jesus please forgive me, I accept what you did for me on the cross.."

The future from here on out is going to be hard as Jesus is also coming back to Earth to fight His and our enemy. The Earth will ruined before that. Jesus will save it and rebuild it for a thousand years. But in the end the Earth will be dissolved. It will not exist. There will be another new Earth that we will live on. But the important part is that those who have had the penalty of death removed will live forever. Those that chose to go their own way got to defend themselves before God on their own, being full of sin and rebellion. They lost and were sent away, but it was their choice to make.

That's what you should think about and not simply putting blame on God. You were raised Catholic, but, have you considered reading the Gospels and knowing the real Jesus and not the Catholic church one, they really are different, just read it for yourself.

[edit on 1-7-2009 by Fromabove]


reply posted on 1-7-2009 @ 08:23 PM by LSDeviant
Originally posted by count66
reply to post by dgtempe


2) God has given every human being free will - hence Eve's ability to choose to eat the fruit from the tree of knowledge - this free will however often results in man being very inhumane to other men and inflicting great suffering through war, crime etc on their brothers and sisters in the Human Race.




Not going to lie, stopped reading what you posted here. So god creates a man and a woman, that have no experience of deceit, as they have not 'eaten from the tree of knowledge', and I doubt the bear (although he is a bit of a prick) ever tried to trick them. So then, what happens? A talking snake shows up. This is a world where the only thing to ever communicate with Eve is Adam, or maybe, nonverbally, an animal. Now, I'm a bit fuzzy on my Genesis, as I have too many other books to read to be re-reading much of anything, but I believe this snake slides up to Eve, and says something to the effect of, "Hey. I noticed you don't eat from that one tree over there. (points to Tree of Knowledge with tail). Why is that?"

"Well, God says not to. But he put it here. Weird, huh? You'd think that with, you know, an entire universe at his disposal, he might put it somewhere we can't get at it if he doesn't want us to eat from it. Weird, huh?"

"Well, I've got an in with the G-Man, and I'm pretty sure he's cool with it. you go right ahead."

"Sweet! I've never been lied to or tricked in my life, don't even know what those things are, so I'll just believe you!"

"Good. Good."

So basically, we didn't have free will. To put your assessment to an exceedingly extreme test, would you say that a child who gets into a stranger's van with the promise of free candy had free will? I'm talking young, like, so young Mommy and Daddy don't think they need to worry about pedophiles, as Junior isn't old enough to talk yet, not even old enough to go outside on his own. He just happened to go outside, and he DAMN sure knows what candy is.

He's got no experience with people trying to deceive him, no knowledge that there are people in this world who are just fundamentally cruel. Did he really exercise his free will by going with the stranger?

Because that's how Adam and Eve were (not that I believe they actually existed). Children. No experience, no knowledge, no reason to distrust. god wasn't like, "Oh, and watch out for the snake. he's on my **** list. If I find him; BANG!" because, of course, an all- knowing God would have known that Satan was out for his human toys. Why no warning?

Please, anyone who is a Christian Fundamentalist, or is a Christian that believes we have free will, explain this to me. Because it's been bothering me for a loooooooooooooooooong time.


reply posted on 1-7-2009 @ 08:25 PM by Atlantican
"Why, If God Is Our Father, Doesn't He Intervene So We Don't Die Or Suffer?"

DG, consider Us as ants in an ant farm and God as a person that set it up and is observing in a long term study, whether hobby or other...

When we have an ant farm on our desk, there comes a time to clean it up, change the dirt and start again. Surviving ants get to thrive again in that new home and the process continues. The strongest ones end up still having their gene pool in the latest farm. Once the owner is tired of the ants or himself or herself grows into other things, the ants are freed in the bigger, open world or destroyed if there's no respect of them.

It's a forced evolution really. The strongest among us will survive the deluges, cataclysms and develop clever ways to ensure our safety. After several of these events, the gene pool remaining will be freed into the more open universe.

Only God could have an infinite existence, so far. One day I am certain we will have mastered science and technology as well as biomedical science in a way that will make some of us immortal. Many will die in the pursuit.

Free will is a great and mysterious thing. However, for the species to survive that ultimate test of being freed or incinerated means to make it to the next level or be incinerated for fear of us corrupting the larger system.

Back to the farm... If you see one ant attacking another, then you have a decision. Separate the two, freeing the victim or freeing both. Maybe that victim ant has kept the farm clean and shared his wares with others, winning your heart. Maybe the aggressor has constantly attacked the others and never shared food, instead he horded and killed for the daily ration, pissing you off to no end. In that case the aggressor isn't forgiven and is likely destroyed in fear of the whole farm dying off for its deeds. OR MAYBE he serves to keep the farm trim, active and rids the farm of the ones that just eat, eat, eat and do nothing to advance the farm. Sometimes, you have to sit back and let them fight it out as they both have pissed you off or you cannot decide which one is more vital to the whole farm. Judgment.

Add on that having someone in the house that HATES ants and the farm because you are so entertained by it. Their goal is to kill them all off. That person watches and looks for triggers to set off the aggressors so that they will kill the aunts and piss off the owner, convincing him to kill them all off and spend more time with them. This malevolent person is allowed to live as they are family, but they can be shooed out of the room with the ant farms. LOL. Uhm... I'm rambling I guess.

Let's think about how good its been for most of us till the anti religion / evil crew started demanding no prayer in schools, no secular schools, no religious topics or emblems or decorations on courthouses. Sure this is not everyone, but the most visible achievements of mankind all say "up yours" to anyone watching. We elect the scumbags who make these decisions. We are a reflection of those scumbags as they are us.

There are also ants that never congregate, create or do anything attracting the farm owner's eye to win favor or other. They don't get noticed much. They might not make it either, if they do nothing for the greater good of the farm or to at least get noticed. This is where MOST of the populace fit in.

Those of us that change the way people think for the better and motivate and employ people (in a good way) will be noted for our deeds and be given a hand when aggression comes around. It will be intuition to "get out of there" before things get messy, a gift of knowing something isn't right, a gift of always questioning the establishment when we realize its malevolent. Etc.

DGtempe. I have no doubt in my mind that God digs you! You, like me, might be a little more empathetic than those that are pulling the strings these days. Again, God will sort them out. But we might suffer a while too, while we (the ants) dig new tunnels in our
"fresh ant farm" that definitely isn't too far away now. I'm sure you feel it too.

[edit on 1-7-2009 by Atlantican]


reply posted on 1-7-2009 @ 08:43 PM by Totakeke
reply to post by '___'eviant


We did have free will. God put the tree in the garden and told Adam and Eve not to eat the fruit off of this tree. He was very clear. God didn't hide the tree because that wouldn't be giving us free will. God wanted Adam and Eve to obey Him by choice, and they chose not to. It's not like God didn't warm them.

[edit on 1-7-2009 by Totakeke]


reply posted on 1-7-2009 @ 08:51 PM by LSDeviant
reply to post by Totakeke


And what I'm saying is; TALKING SNAKE(!!!) comes up to Eve, says that he knows God personally, and says it's okay to eat from the tree; how does she know snake's not being straight with her?

I appreciate your response, but you failed to address this point, which is my main one.


reply posted on 1-7-2009 @ 09:17 PM by Totakeke
reply to post by '___'eviant


The serpent (it's a serpent, by the way) tricked her. God told her not to eat the fruit. Eve knew the serpent was lying to her because God, whom just created Adam and Eve, told Adam and Eve not to eat the fruit.


reply posted on 1-7-2009 @ 09:24 PM by tinfoilman
Originally posted by '___'eviant
Originally posted by count66
reply to post by dgtempe


2) God has given every human being free will - hence Eve's ability to choose to eat the fruit from the tree of knowledge - this free will however often results in man being very inhumane to other men and inflicting great suffering through war, crime etc on their brothers and sisters in the Human Race.



Please, anyone who is a Christian Fundamentalist, or is a Christian that believes we have free will, explain this to me. Because it's been bothering me for a loooooooooooooooooong time.


Okay I'm not a fundie so I see a slightly different story going on in Genesis other than God is punishing us for simply eating from the tree, but I don't have time to go into my whole interpretation. So, I'll just super summarize it.

Anyway, free-will is simply a way of saying choice. Obviously at some point, what the story is trying to say, is that God decided it would be better for us to have choice and not be robots.

People like to ask why? Well spiritually we're made in God's image according to the scripture. So, to understand why God gave us choice it's easiest to look at ourselves.

Do we not fight to free other countries from oppression? Do we not fight for democracy instead of tyranny and dictatorships? Is it not our jobs as parents to teach our kids to be individuals and survive in the world on their own without us making every decision for them?

Obviously we can see from our own actions that we do indeed agree with God's decsion. That choice is better.

But the nature of choice is to be able to do wrong. If you could only do what's correct there would be no choice. With choice comes responsibility and consequences. Such as how our bad decisions affect others.

But in the end it's believed to be for the greater good.

But you're welcome to give up your free will anytime you want. You can follow a religion or a cult or the teachings of a philosopher or even write your own philosophy and just live by it unthinking without any choice. But like God I think we would all agree it's better if we have choice and can make our decisions day by day.

EDIT: And I'm not 100 percent certain we can say the serpent was a serpent. It may have meant something like a spirit or something that was serpent in nature such as deceitful or cunning, but I do not know. It may have simply been another side of God, but obviously he wanted us to have the decision to choose if we ate from the tree or not. Choose to be dumb and not know right from wrong or choose to be knowing right from wrong.

[edit on 1-7-2009 by tinfoilman]

[edit on 1-7-2009 by tinfoilman]

[edit on 1-7-2009 by tinfoilman]


reply posted on 1-7-2009 @ 09:30 PM by Deus est mortuus
reply to post by dgtempe


You must suffer to learn.
You must feel pain to recognize joy.

Deys est mortuus- God is dead.


reply posted on 1-7-2009 @ 09:30 PM by LSDeviant
reply to post by Totakeke


Snake, serpent whatever; people get up in arms when you say Jonah was eaten by a whale; "The bible doesn't say whale- it says Great Fish."
Let's just agree to call it a snake. Unless you want it to be something cooler, like a Dragon. I'm down for WHATEVA.


I do disagree, though. All that Eve knows is that God told her not to a while back, snake (or DRAGON!) comes up to her and says, "No, it's cool - God says so."

Eve does NOT know snake is lying, for all Eve knows, snake is carrying new instructions from God; remember, the only talking things in the world are Adam and Eve, God, and now this snake. Seems a little special, right?

And God says contradictory things all the time:

GEN 7:2 Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female.

GEN 7:8 Of clean beasts, and of beasts that are not clean, and of fowls, and of every thing that creepeth upon the earth, GEN 7:9 There went in two and two unto Noah into the ark, the male and the female, as God had commanded Noah.

Good thing Noah guessed right, huh?

II SAMUEL 24: And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.

I CHRONICLES 21: And SATAN stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.

Apparently, he even confuses himself with Satan occasionally(?).

Anyway, once again, appreciate the response, but if all you're going to say is "God says so. Never changes his mind. Besides, being completely innocent is no excuse - never trust a talking snake," then I'm not sure you're going to be able to satisfactorily answer my question.

Edit to add a response to Tinfoilman: The end of your post disturbs me greatly. The idea that God is ****ing with us is horrifying. You really think that God would think, "They'll make an informed choice, even without knowledge of deceit," then take an alternate form and tell us it's okay to eat from the tree and call that fair? "Oh, that's unfortunate. They believed me, what's wrong with them?" I hope that's not the case, because even if God tomorrow came down and tied my shoe, right in front of me, but did THAT, I still wouldn't worship him/it. That's a dirty, dirty trick.

And my example gets stronger if it wasn't a physical presence, but a spirit; how is Eve to know that it isn't a divine presence? God didn't make her aware of evil, so the only thing it could be (based on her experience) is a divine presence - remember, the comprehensive list of everything that talks on the planet is Eve, Adam, and God.

[edit on 1-7-2009 by '___'eviant]
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