My Only God Thread. Why, If God Is Our Father, Doent He Intervene So We Dont Die Or Suffer?, page 24

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reply posted on 5-7-2009 @ 08:26 AM by XXXN3O

Originally posted by jfj123
reply to post by XXXN3O

I see an image.
Why do you ask?

I ask because I see a person who is turning there back on themselves through greed.

Just because you see an image or I see something different does not mean it does not exist.

If you look at the world literally it will not make sense. Free will allows us to even have both opposing points of view. If we did not have free will you and I would agree with everyone and everything because we would have no choice.

reply posted on 5-7-2009 @ 08:27 AM by jfj123

Originally posted by XXXN3O
reply to post by Totakeke

I just find a literal understanding of the world a delusion. If we took everything literal we could not take a joke, understand sayings and we could not understand parables.

Free will is having a choice to choose what you believe or want to do.

If someone has a gun pointing at you, you can choose to try and take the gun off them or you can choose to accept your getting shot. Sometimes your free will is effected by anothers just like you can affect another persons.

Literal understandings ie, free will without consequence just does not make sense.

Hence why I posted a picture of a mirror reflection looking away, many people do not understand art, that does not mean it does not exist. Some would call that strawman theory, some would call it a good argument. Its all conrflakes.

We do have free will and it has consequences.

[edit on 5-7-2009 by XXXN3O]

Again, you can't have TRUE free will with consequences.
TRUE free will is an illusion within the religious context.

reply posted on 5-7-2009 @ 08:34 AM by dodadoom

Maybe this will make it more clear to some:
Why doesnt he intervene? He does, oftentimes.
Its not his fault we are so indifferent to his ways.

The other times, maybe he's just teaching us a lesson,
like all spoiled naughty little children need once in awhile.

I dont suppose humility has any place on this earth anymore either.

In God we dont trust! Our mortal minds know much more than he does. Right.
Then go create your own universe, and see what its like when you
have evil creatures- capable of free will- ruining it for themselves. Smart.
Who here has the power of God?
Who here was around when he created ALL of this?
And no, he used no legos.

reply posted on 5-7-2009 @ 08:41 AM by jfj123

Originally posted by XXXN3O

Originally posted by jfj123
reply to post by XXXN3O

I see an image.
Why do you ask?

I ask because I see a person who is turning there back on themselves through greed.

Just because you see an image or I see something different does not mean it does not exist.

If you look at the world literally it will not make sense. Free will allows us to even have both opposing points of view. If we did not have free will you and I would agree with everyone and everything because we would have no choice.

There's a big difference between making a CHOICE and having free will.
They're not the same thing.

reply posted on 5-7-2009 @ 08:45 AM by pepsi78

Sometimes your free will is effected by anothers just like you can affect another persons.

I don't agree to that. Just by saying that I don't agree I will press you to an answer that you chose. I am not affecting your free will, you are still able to use it. Just like someone pointing the gun at another, it will not disable the other person to make a decision out of his free will. He may still chose to run, grab the gun or just stand still out of his free will.
He can try to grab the gun even if failure will come out of this action.

Fear and emotions do not render a person unable to make decisions.
If it happens it's because that person decided to do so.
There is that thing with "don't let your emotions cloud you judgement"

The only time I would be unable to do something is if I were chained to the wall, I can still try to exercise my free will and try to break the chains,
even if I do not succeed, I am fully exercising my free will without influence.

No one has power over your mind if you decide to do something.
Fear is just an element asking you not to do so, it does not stop you.

reply posted on 5-7-2009 @ 08:45 AM by dodadoom

reply to post by jfj123

With all due respect I think you are not seeing the big picture.
We have a plan for happiness and true peace set before us.
It is by following this path set forth by the one who KNOWS the
right way to live that promotes peace and true happiness.
Everyone has freewill yes, but if that choice leads to death,
wouldn't you have to agree that is not the right way to live?
You have a choice whether you live forever or die a sinner.
Without Jesus we had no choice. We were dead already.
Seems to me we should be thanking him everyday for giving us another chance.
BTW, our choices today WILL effect our future generations just like
our ancestors' choices did. Thats how it works. Ah...choices!

reply posted on 5-7-2009 @ 08:50 AM by jprophet420

Causality is the process of making something happen. Often it denotes a necessary relationship between one event (called cause) and another event (called effect) which is the direct consequence of the first.[1] This two event type of causality is known as accidental causality. Another variety, essential causality, has one event seen in two ways. Aristotle's example of essential causality is a builder building a house.[2] This single event can be analyzed into the builder building (cause) and the house being built (effect).

That is separate from free will.

The question of free will is whether, and in what sense, rational agents exercise control over their actions and decisions. Addressing this question requires understanding the relationship between freedom and cause, and determining whether the laws of nature are causally deterministic. The various philosophical positions taken differ on whether all events are determined or not — determinism versus indeterminism — and also on whether freedom can coexist with determinism or not — compatibilism versus incompatibilism. So, for instance, 'hard determinists' argue that the universe is deterministic, and that this makes free will impossible.

So if you debate that the relationship between cause and effect has an adverse effect on free will I accept that, but if you post so in a way that is mostly anti Christian with no other explanation then I tend to disregard what you say.

I can understand how people can come to the conclusion that since there is a relationship between your actions and the consequences of those actions you are not free from consequence. The reason I feel this does not mean you do not possess free will is that you have the option to avoid the consequences by not choosing the action.

reply posted on 5-7-2009 @ 08:52 AM by XXXN3O

Originally posted by jfj123

Originally posted by XXXN3O

Originally posted by jfj123
reply to post by XXXN3O

I see an image.
Why do you ask?

I ask because I see a person who is turning there back on themselves through greed.

Just because you see an image or I see something different does not mean it does not exist.

If you look at the world literally it will not make sense. Free will allows us to even have both opposing points of view. If we did not have free will you and I would agree with everyone and everything because we would have no choice.

There's a big difference between making a CHOICE and having free will.
They're not the same thing.

Thats infinity not free will.

Free will is choice.

I fail too see how you are reaching your conclusions, this thread is proof alone of free will. Even the very conversation right now is albeit through posts.

If what you are saying was the case then even god would not have free will because he created us and the end result will be the consequences of even his actions.

Its a bit self defeating is it not. Consequences teach you to think about your actions if we did not have consequences we could not do anything that would have any purpose and if we could not do anything we would have no free will whatsover.

[edit on 5-7-2009 by XXXN3O]

reply posted on 5-7-2009 @ 08:57 AM by Totakeke

reply to post by jfj123

Think of it this way. A man gets drunk one night, decides to drive home, and gets into a car accident. One of the choices has consequences and one does not. Was this man still able to choose to get drunk, despite there being consequences? Just because making a choice involves consequences doesn't mean you still aren't free to choose either choice.

[edit on 5-7-2009 by Totakeke]

reply posted on 5-7-2009 @ 08:57 AM by Safandjaro

Originally posted by dodadoom
reply to post by jfj123

With all due respect I think you are not seeing the big picture.
We have a plan for happiness and true peace set before us.
It is by following this path set forth by the one who KNOWS the
right way to live that promotes peace and true happiness.
Everyone has freewill yes, but if that choice leads to death,
wouldn't you have to agree that is not the right way to live?
You have a choice whether you live forever or die a sinner.
Without Jesus we had no choice. We were dead already.
Seems to me we should be thanking him everyday for giving us another chance.
BTW, our choices today WILL effect our future generations just like
our ancestors' choices did. Thats how it works. Ah...choices!

But that's the problem, we have to make a free will choice, between life and death but not between two fact's but between two possible facts which where presented by us by other people or by a book written by other people.
I never saw God or Jesus in front of me saying, choose for me or...

So it will never be a real choice, it wil always be a guess between two maybe's based on fearfull told consequences by other people.

[edit on 5-7-2009 by Safandjaro]

reply posted on 5-7-2009 @ 09:02 AM by dodadoom

My free "choice" tells me if I die and go to heaven by
believing and living my life promoting peace and love,
thats a way better thought than just becoming worm food.

From a non believers point of view;
Since we are genetically almost identical to chimps and since
95% of all species on earth have become extinct,
what do you think our chances are without God?
My 2

reply posted on 5-7-2009 @ 09:03 AM by pepsi78

reply to post by Totakeke

Yes fear and emotions do not stop someone to do something, they just tell the person not to do so, it does not put a lock on the mind.

It's just like going to the doctor, the doctor prescribes some medication but does not force you to take the medication.

Fear is just a sugestion.

reply posted on 5-7-2009 @ 09:06 AM by dodadoom

reply to post by Safandjaro

I know exactly where you are coming from.
Thanks for the reply and explanation.
Technically you are right, we only have two choices.
To live or die. Unfortunatley we have to have some faith here.
Mans way is war and death and destruction.
Gods way is fairness, ultimate peace and unexplainable love.
There really is no other choice.
Life or death, easy choice to me. Dying sucks man.

reply posted on 5-7-2009 @ 09:11 AM by jprophet420

Theres no such thing as God or free will, I concede. The only choice is to live or die. Thats why all of us will have half a million people show up to our wake like MJ.

/sarcasm

reply posted on 5-7-2009 @ 09:15 AM by dodadoom

reply to post by jprophet420

It sure didnt hurt album sales either did it?
The dead sell more albums when they are!
Good point, not sure if its on topic though....

Thanks everyone for your thoughts here!
This is way more fun than the you-know-what threads!

[edit on 5-7-2009 by dodadoom]

reply posted on 5-7-2009 @ 09:31 AM by wylekat

reply to post by Totakeke

Because people have the free will to choose. God can't make the decision for us.

I SO beg to differ.

Nothing about consequences in there. Free will means you have the power to choose. People can choose to either accept Christ or reject Christ.

Which is only half true. You accept, God ru(ins)les your life with an iron fist wrapped in a concrete glove- and if you dont, you are punished no end.

Unless you have ca$h. And don't dictate to me otherwise.

reply posted on 5-7-2009 @ 09:37 AM by wylekat

reply to post by Totakeke

But you can still choose, can you not?

No... I CAN NOT. I have railroaded and buffaloed into every decision I have had to make- and a couple where I forced an opposite outcome, the laws of the universe themselves were bent up like a pretzel to accommodate GOD'S way of doing it! Leaving me screwed. My best example to date was the person I found who was really interested in me, WANTED to marry me, and then, she gets punished with foreclosure and sickness! a frigging week after she tells me how she feels- and now, I hardly get to talk to her, let alone SEE her anymore.

How in the hell is that a free will choice? Or is that ok because you self indulgent churchies can get away with murder and rationalize the suffering of others with some well placed, practiced quips?

reply posted on 5-7-2009 @ 09:44 AM by XXXN3O

Originally posted by wylekat
reply to post by Totakeke

But you can still choose, can you not?

No... I CAN NOT. I have railroaded and buffaloed into every decision I have had to make- and a couple where I forced an opposite outcome, the laws of the universe themselves were bent up like a pretzel to accommodate GOD'S way of doing it! Leaving me screwed. My best example to date was the person I found who was really interested in me, WANTED to marry me, and then, she gets punished with foreclosure and sickness! a frigging week after she tells me how she feels- and now, I hardly get to talk to her, let alone SEE her anymore.

How in the hell is that a free will choice? Or is that ok because you self indulgent churchies can get away with murder and rationalize the suffering of others with some well placed, practiced quips?

You do live in a system that is controlled. Thats still a choice.

Nobody is forcing you to live in a democracy, a dictatorship or any other way of living. Yes getting out of society is difficult but is not impossible if you cannot stand the circumstances.

Sorry to hear that you are unable to get married. I am also going through hard times myself but not the same as yours. I do not know about your partners illness but financially if you want to get married I know of churches that would have you at no cost if you attend and ask even if you feel your ego might be hurt a little.

If a church is dictating you must pay money they should not be followed, simple. People allow themselves to be deluded, even believers or non believers. Likewise if a church is dictating you must confess to a man (not in bible). Likewise if a church is saying you must kill (not in bible). Donations are voluntary, hence the name and should always be the case.

You cannot tar everyone with the same brush, thats like me saying a particular race is all murderers or whatever because one person did something wrong.

Read the book called the bible because it explains all this, it is other people who add to what the book says and start false teachings that create the delusions.

[edit on 5-7-2009 by XXXN3O]

reply posted on 5-7-2009 @ 09:54 AM by jfj123

Originally posted by dodadoom
reply to post by jfj123

With all due respect I think you are not seeing the big picture.

That's your opinion and you are entitled to it.

We have a plan for happiness and true peace set before us.

This is also your opinion. As example, someone who is falsely imprisoned won't be able to enjoy true happiness and peace.

It is by following this path set forth by the one who KNOWS the
right way to live that promotes peace and true happiness.

Who is THE ONE ?

Everyone has freewill yes, but if that choice leads to death,
wouldn't you have to agree that is not the right way to live?

Not necessarily true. A nun who leads the most righteous life possible could be the victim of a shooting. Her path lead to her death so could you still say she didn't choose the right way to live?

You have a choice whether you live forever or die a sinner.

If there is a god and these are our only 2 choices, once again, we don't have TRUE free will.

Without Jesus we had no choice. We were dead already.

Sorry, I don't know what this means.

Seems to me we should be thanking him everyday for giving us another chance.

Sorry how did we get another chance? What was the first chance we wasted?

reply posted on 5-7-2009 @ 09:57 AM by dodadoom

reply to post by wylekat

Now we see the problem.
That is too bad about your significant other.
Stuff happens though.
All you can do is be there for them with your support!

It is a two way street, if you care for your "friend"
in turn they will care for you when you need it.
Do you think you could be more supportive of your soul mate
and take some responsibility instead of just blaming God?
Or do you just want out of it all?
Remember the devil runs this earth for now.
If you read the bible you would know that though.
Good luck and God speed to happiness for you.
I can tell you untill you are thankfull for what you have now,
you will never be truly happy anytime. IMO