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Originally posted by makinho21
reply to post by dgtempe
I think Epicurus put it best:
"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?"
Originally posted by miriam0566
Originally posted by makinho21
reply to post by dgtempe
I think Epicurus put it best:
"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?"
yes, lots of people love to use this poem (i guess you would call it) to make some point that god doesnt exist. but epicurus is not actually making the point you think he is, he's just asking the right question.
"Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?"
hes acknowledging that there is an unanswered question in there. if god is both able and willing to stop suffering, then there is a piece of information that we are missing which is "why".
just because one doesnt know why, doesnt mean there isnt a why.
Originally posted by Totakeke
reply to post by alexwoodson
Because people have the free will to choose. God can't make the decision for us.
Originally posted by chiponbothshoulders
As humans,we determine our worth through suffering and pain and agony,much the same as we would expect a godlike entity to do....
But we do not understand godliness,or decency,or anything good or neutral....we do not appreciate anything at all,we just think we do....
Sorry,I think I know,but I cannot tell you the answer,you are required to seek the truth yourself.........But..freedom is the option to choose freely,that which you may do,or not do ,by your own free will.
Do you see that here in abundance,I do not..
[edit on 5-7-2009 by chiponbothshoulders]
[edit on 5-7-2009 by chiponbothshoulders]
But we do not understand godliness,or decency,or anything good or neutral....we do not appreciate anything at all,we just think we do.... Sorry,I think I know,but I cannot tell you the answer,you are required to seek the truth yourself.....
free will
–noun
1. free and independent choice; voluntary decision
Above and beyond that, as example, if someone has the free will to shoot and kill you, you do not have the free will to NOT DIE. As you can see, we do not have the free will you speak of.
Originally posted by Totakeke
reply to post by jfj123
free will
–noun
1. free and independent choice; voluntary decision
Nothing about consequences in there. Free will means you have the power to choose. People can choose to either accept Christ or reject Christ.
Above and beyond that, as example, if someone has the free will to shoot and kill you, you do not have the free will to NOT DIE. As you can see, we do not have the free will you speak of.
That's not a very good example.
In that situation you can't choose whether you live or die.
But people do have the power to choose whether or not they accept Christ.
[edit on 5-7-2009 by Totakeke]
You cannot make a FREE and independent choice when consequences being held over your head, weighs on the choice. In other words, the consequences MANIPULATE the ultimate choice you make thus making the choice not completely FREE.
Originally posted by Safandjaro
So what is the reason we have these limitations? I do not know..
Originally posted by Totakeke
reply to post by jfj123
You cannot make a FREE and independent choice when consequences being held over your head, weighs on the choice. In other words, the consequences MANIPULATE the ultimate choice you make thus making the choice not completely FREE.
And yet, despite knowing the consequences, people haven't accepted Christ, died unsaved, and unfortunately are right now separated from God for all eternity. People have free will and choose to reject Christ all the time. God doesn't want this to happen. He wants people to accept that Christ died for our sins but He can't force them to do it. God loves us and doesn't want us to go to Hell.
[edit on 5-7-2009 by Totakeke]
Originally posted by jfj123
Originally posted by Totakeke
reply to post by jfj123
You cannot make a FREE and independent choice when consequences being held over your head, weighs on the choice. In other words, the consequences MANIPULATE the ultimate choice you make thus making the choice not completely FREE.
And yet, despite knowing the consequences, people haven't accepted Christ, died unsaved, and unfortunately are right now separated from God for all eternity. People have free will and choose to reject Christ all the time. God doesn't want this to happen. He wants people to accept that Christ died for our sins but He can't force them to do it. God loves us and doesn't want us to go to Hell.
[edit on 5-7-2009 by Totakeke]
This response has nothing to do with our conversation about god giving us free will.
You freely admit that making the wrong choice does have consequences so we do NOT have free will.
He does ATTEMPT to force us based on what you are saying thus limiting free will.
So free will in a religious sense is an illusion. Your own responses have proven that. Thanks.
Originally posted by Totakeke
reply to post by jfj123
But you can still choose, can you not?