My Only God Thread. Why, If God Is Our Father, Doent He Intervene So We Dont Die Or Suffer?, page 23

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reply posted on 5-7-2009 @ 04:01 AM by Totakeke

reply to post by alexwoodson

Because people have the free will to choose. God can't make the decision for us.

reply posted on 5-7-2009 @ 04:28 AM by makinho21

reply to post by dgtempe

I think Epicurus put it best:
"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?"

reply posted on 5-7-2009 @ 04:49 AM by miriam0566

Originally posted by makinho21
reply to post by dgtempe

I think Epicurus put it best:
"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?"

yes, lots of people love to use this poem (i guess you would call it) to make some point that god doesnt exist. but epicurus is not actually making the point you think he is, he's just asking the right question.

"Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?"

hes acknowledging that there is an unanswered question in there. if god is both able and willing to stop suffering, then there is a piece of information that we are missing which is "why".

just because one doesnt know why, doesnt mean there isnt a why.

reply posted on 5-7-2009 @ 04:55 AM by helen670

Originally posted by miriam0566

Originally posted by makinho21
reply to post by dgtempe

I think Epicurus put it best:
"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?"

yes, lots of people love to use this poem (i guess you would call it) to make some point that god doesnt exist. but epicurus is not actually making the point you think he is, he's just asking the right question.

"Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?"

hes acknowledging that there is an unanswered question in there. if god is both able and willing to stop suffering, then there is a piece of information that we are missing which is "why".

just because one doesnt know why, doesnt mean there isnt a why.

Hi miriam/

Well said !

ICXC NIKA
helen

reply posted on 5-7-2009 @ 05:14 AM by chiponbothshoulders

As humans,we determine our worth through suffering and pain and agony,much the same as we would expect a godlike entity to do....
But we do not understand godliness,or decency,or anything good or neutral....we do not appreciate anything at all,we just think we do....
Sorry,I think I know,but I cannot tell you the answer,you are required to seek the truth yourself.........But..freedom is the option to choose freely,that which you may do,or not do ,by your own free will.
Do you see that here in abundance,I do not..

[edit on 5-7-2009 by chiponbothshoulders]

[edit on 5-7-2009 by chiponbothshoulders]

reply posted on 5-7-2009 @ 06:52 AM by jfj123

Originally posted by Totakeke
reply to post by alexwoodson

Because people have the free will to choose. God can't make the decision for us.

The idea of free will within a religion is an illusion.

Free will is the idea that you may choose any path you like...WITHOUT CONSEQUENCE.

If there is a consequence for your choice(s), you are now bound by the consequence which means you do not actually have free will.

Above and beyond that, as example, if someone has the free will to shoot and kill you, you do not have the free will to NOT DIE. As you can see, we do not have the free will you speak of.

reply posted on 5-7-2009 @ 06:56 AM by helen670

Originally posted by chiponbothshoulders
As humans,we determine our worth through suffering and pain and agony,much the same as we would expect a godlike entity to do....
But we do not understand godliness,or decency,or anything good or neutral....we do not appreciate anything at all,we just think we do....
Sorry,I think I know,but I cannot tell you the answer,you are required to seek the truth yourself.........But..freedom is the option to choose freely,that which you may do,or not do ,by your own free will.
Do you see that here in abundance,I do not..

[edit on 5-7-2009 by chiponbothshoulders]

[edit on 5-7-2009 by chiponbothshoulders]

Hi chip/

But we do not understand godliness,or decency,or anything good or neutral....we do not appreciate anything at all,we just think we do.... Sorry,I think I know,but I cannot tell you the answer,you are required to seek the truth yourself.....

Well said!
It is only when we are in suffering and humility that we truly can experience what God is about.
If we are happy and have no pain and suffering, then we have no need for God or His presence felt.
My thoughts,

ICXC NIKA
helen

reply posted on 5-7-2009 @ 07:07 AM by Totakeke

reply to post by jfj123

free will

–noun
1. free and independent choice; voluntary decision

Nothing about consequences in there. Free will means you have the power to choose. People can choose to either accept Christ or reject Christ.

Above and beyond that, as example, if someone has the free will to shoot and kill you, you do not have the free will to NOT DIE. As you can see, we do not have the free will you speak of.

That's not a very good example. In that situation you can't choose whether you live or die. But people do have the power to choose whether or not they accept Christ.

[edit on 5-7-2009 by Totakeke]

reply posted on 5-7-2009 @ 07:21 AM by jfj123

Originally posted by Totakeke
reply to post by jfj123

free will

–noun
1. free and independent choice; voluntary decision

Nothing about consequences in there. Free will means you have the power to choose. People can choose to either accept Christ or reject Christ.

For us to have TRUE free will, it must be a choice without consequence. And by your definition, yes it is in there.
FREE and INDEPENDENT....You cannot make a FREE and independent choice when consequences being held over your head, weighs on the choice. In other words, the consequences MANIPULATE the ultimate choice you make thus making the choice not completely FREE.

Above and beyond that, as example, if someone has the free will to shoot and kill you, you do not have the free will to NOT DIE. As you can see, we do not have the free will you speak of.

That's not a very good example.

The example is fine. The problem you have with it is that you can't effectively argue against it.

In that situation you can't choose whether you live or die.

Yes... I know

But people do have the power to choose whether or not they accept Christ.

[edit on 5-7-2009 by Totakeke]

Which has nothing to do with my example as it is about free will. If god put us here, in the flesh, and gave us free will here, in the flesh, then my example must hold.

You can't have your cake and eat it too.

reply posted on 5-7-2009 @ 07:22 AM by Safandjaro

Give entities with a free will limitations and see Pain, Suffering and Sin are born.

For example, my cat, if she is allowed to walk through the house unlimited and in and out she's perfectly happy. But when I lock her in a room, her free will is limited and she wants to get out, get's unhappy and finally find some way to open the door, she Sinned, and I have to punish her, making her even more unhappy etc. Pain, suffering and Sin are born.
(except when she was born in the room and did never know of an "outside" she would have excepted it and never had the urge to break out)

God gave humans the first limitation by forbid them to eat from the tree, but made it also possible tot eat from it on the first place.
After the first "Sin" people got more limitations and more options to "Sin", pain and suffering.

If humans were immortal, killing would have no use and this sin would not exsist.
If everybody could get what they want and there was abundance for everyone, things like stealing would not be necessary.
etc. just fill in the rest....

So for God to end pain, suffering and sin, he has to make boundaries to our free will (like never show the cat the world outside the room)
or
He have to give us unlimited resources and a life without boudaries and everybody equally on every scope.

So what is the reason we have these limitations? I do not know..

reply posted on 5-7-2009 @ 07:26 AM by Totakeke

reply to post by jfj123

You cannot make a FREE and independent choice when consequences being held over your head, weighs on the choice. In other words, the consequences MANIPULATE the ultimate choice you make thus making the choice not completely FREE.

And yet, despite knowing the consequences, people haven't accepted Christ, died unsaved, and unfortunately are right now separated from God for all eternity. People have free will and choose to reject Christ all the time. God doesn't want this to happen. He wants people to accept that Christ died for our sins but He can't force them to do it. God loves us and doesn't want us to go to Hell.

[edit on 5-7-2009 by Totakeke]

reply posted on 5-7-2009 @ 07:37 AM by XXXN3O

Originally posted by Safandjaro

So what is the reason we have these limitations? I do not know..

Limitation leads to appreciation.

If we had no limits to begin with we would not value anything and take the whole lot forgranted. Many on this earth do not appreciate anything they have and blame everyone around them for it. Until they realise this they will never move beyond it.

This is the same for anything at all.

You never realise what you have until it is lost.

You never realise how far you have come until you look behind.

You never realise anything until it has passed.

Lets say you woke up tomorrow disabled, wouldnt you regret that you did not do more when you could walk?

Life is a lesson, do not take anything forgranted because you never know when it will be lost but it will be lost eventually.

[edit on 5-7-2009 by XXXN3O]

reply posted on 5-7-2009 @ 07:55 AM by helen670

reply to post by Safandjaro

Hi Safand/

The only SIN that came from ADAM was death.
Death was caused to a body that was meant to live eternally with GOD.
Adam on breaking the ONE commandment of God was no longer able to be with God because the commandment also came with a waring,''Dont eat, you will die''I guess it was caused by an action of eating the fruit(disobedience)and the reaction was as was told would happen DEATH.
Death is the only thing that mankind has acquired from the first man Adam.
Sin...AMARTIA means to literally 'miss the mark' .
When we sin, we literally do the opposite of what God expects us of doing.
One can say that it is easier to do good then to do bad.
Why is that?
Is it in our nature?
Of course it is not.
We have a choice, sometimes we are given many choices...
Elders who lived in the desert in the early years of Christianity always spoke of clearing the mind of PASSIONS of the body.
What are Passions?
Passions are desires ,wants or needs that the body seeks, and not of which is present in the soul of which is one's conscience.
What we do with our conscience is free will.
These thoughts arise and influence us from our surroundings,the tv,music,magazines, media and Hollywood!
It is not in our nature to do bad things or to be evil in thought.

An Ancient Christian Desert Dweller...
~~~on The Character of man~~~
''God is not the cause of evil.
He has given men knowledge and understanding,
the power of discriminating between good and evil,
and free will.
It is man's negligence and indolence that gives birth to evil passions,
while God is in no way the cause.
St. Antony the Great of the third century~(On the Character of Men no. 89)

One more thing on how the MIND works....
This is a conspiracy site?
Yes?
Mind programming is not FICTION....It is HOLLYWOOD!
Who again OWNS hollywood?
We are programmed through propaganda and the likes.
People seem to believe we all live in a DISNEY LAND world...but, it's much more then that,once you begin to see who is behind it all!

ICXC NIKA
helen

reply posted on 5-7-2009 @ 08:03 AM by jfj123

Originally posted by Totakeke
reply to post by jfj123

You cannot make a FREE and independent choice when consequences being held over your head, weighs on the choice. In other words, the consequences MANIPULATE the ultimate choice you make thus making the choice not completely FREE.

And yet, despite knowing the consequences, people haven't accepted Christ, died unsaved, and unfortunately are right now separated from God for all eternity. People have free will and choose to reject Christ all the time. God doesn't want this to happen. He wants people to accept that Christ died for our sins but He can't force them to do it. God loves us and doesn't want us to go to Hell.

[edit on 5-7-2009 by Totakeke]

This response has nothing to do with our conversation about god giving us free will.
You freely admit that making the wrong choice does have consequences so we do NOT have free will.

He does ATTEMPT to force us based on what you are saying thus limiting free will.

So free will in a religious sense is an illusion. Your own responses have proven that. Thanks.

reply posted on 5-7-2009 @ 08:09 AM by XXXN3O

Originally posted by jfj123

Originally posted by Totakeke
reply to post by jfj123

You cannot make a FREE and independent choice when consequences being held over your head, weighs on the choice. In other words, the consequences MANIPULATE the ultimate choice you make thus making the choice not completely FREE.

And yet, despite knowing the consequences, people haven't accepted Christ, died unsaved, and unfortunately are right now separated from God for all eternity. People have free will and choose to reject Christ all the time. God doesn't want this to happen. He wants people to accept that Christ died for our sins but He can't force them to do it. God loves us and doesn't want us to go to Hell.

[edit on 5-7-2009 by Totakeke]

This response has nothing to do with our conversation about god giving us free will.
You freely admit that making the wrong choice does have consequences so we do NOT have free will.

He does ATTEMPT to force us based on what you are saying thus limiting free will.

So free will in a religious sense is an illusion. Your own responses have proven that. Thanks.

I hope you do not mind me asking you this question.

Look at this picture here....

Tell me what you see?

reply posted on 5-7-2009 @ 08:15 AM by pepsi78

God just is. God created us and left us on our own. It's a fair deal, we are responsible for our own actions and for our own destiny. We want perfection but who is to say that we deserve it?

Why should we be perfect if humanity did not earn it, why should we feel favorites. We eat other animals for haven sakes, we do not have to eat animals, we can survive in some other way but we chose not to drop the habit. We like dirty things, dirty perversions with dirty people and sometimes we think it's cool to get all dirty. We do not even want perfection.

Life is too short, I will agree to that, not enough time to learn life and sort out things. It's a wonder for me why there is not enough time to learn anything, to try to learn my self the way I should. For me it's all about earning something.

Maybe in the end it's all about wanting something, if we really wanted perfection and immortality maybe we could have it. The question is do we really want all that? So it's comes down to ourselves, today we want it tomorrow we don't, and so on, today, tomorrow, today....

Perfection is not part of bad habits, we like having bad habits, it makes life interesting. It's clear to me that most of humanity will not accept perfection if it were offered on a silver plate.

So where does god get blamed for all of this?

reply posted on 5-7-2009 @ 08:18 AM by Totakeke

reply to post by jfj123

But you can still choose, can you not?

reply posted on 5-7-2009 @ 08:23 AM by XXXN3O

reply to post by Totakeke

I just find a literal understanding of the world a delusion. If we took everything literal we could not take a joke, understand sayings and we could not understand parables.

Free will is having a choice to choose what you believe or want to do.

If someone has a gun pointing at you, you can choose to try and take the gun off them or you can choose to accept your getting shot. Sometimes your free will is effected by anothers just like you can affect another persons.

Literal understandings ie, free will without consequence just does not make sense.

Hence why I posted a picture of a mirror reflection looking away, many people do not understand art, that does not mean it does not exist. Some would call that strawman theory, some would call it a good argument. Its all conrflakes.

We do have free will and it has consequences.

[edit on 5-7-2009 by XXXN3O]

reply posted on 5-7-2009 @ 08:24 AM by jfj123

reply to post by XXXN3O

I see an image.
Why do you ask?

reply posted on 5-7-2009 @ 08:25 AM by jfj123