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My Only God Thread. Why, If God Is Our Father, Doent He Intervene So We Dont Die Or Suffer?

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posted on Jul, 2 2009 @ 06:28 AM
According to the bible, the ten commandments were a schoolmaster to bring people unto christ. We are now no longer bound by the ten commandments.

The purpose of the law of Moses - The ten commandments.
Galatians 3: 10-11 & Galatians 3:21,24,25 (King James Version)

10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.

24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

Acording to the bible, the only one that has ever lived on earth and hasn't broken the ten commandments is Jesus Christ.

How God makes people right.
Romans 3:21-27 (King James Version)

21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

According to the Bible, we are all sinful before we leave our mothers' womb, because we are all descenants of Adam and Eve. That's why humans die, because the penalty for sin is Death. Genesis 2:16-17

Only by having sincere belief and faith in Jesus Christ can people, at the time of judgement, be cleansed of their sins and have eterrnal life

According to the bible there is only one way to have eternal life. See John 3:16 & John 14:6

John 3
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

John 14
6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

According to the bible, you cannot get into heaven through good works alone. Good works are motivated by sincere belief and faith in Jesus Christ. Doing good works without having sincere belief and faith in Jesus Christ will not get you eternal life.

Ephesians 2:8-10.
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

And as for the trinity:

i.The Trinity doctrine is arrived at systematically (by looking at the whole of scripture), not by looking at a single verse. Therefore, you won't see a single verse that says it. Also, this demonstrates that you don't understand the Trinity.

A. The Trinity is one God who exists simultaneously in three persons. Each is coequal, copowerful, and coeternal with the other. Each person, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, is not the other. Without either there is no God; all comprise the one God.

B. Analogy of the Trinity: With time, for example, the past is distinct from the present, which is distinct from the future. Each is simultaneous. Yet, they are not three 'times,' but one. That is, they all share the same nature: time.

John 1 (King James Version)
1 In the beginning was the Word [Christ], and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

[edit on 2-7-2009 by BetweenMyths]

[edit on 2-7-2009 by BetweenMyths]

posted on Jul, 2 2009 @ 06:33 AM
You say God, but you mention fire and brimstone, so you are
referring to the Christian God of the Bible. I won't argue the bible
because Christian-theists and non-believers have debated
the bible for centuries. It is a pointless endeavor to attempt
to reconcile religion and science until we humans know much more
about our universe.

But here is a possible answer to the question, "Why are we here?"

...We are here for the experience.

If you believe that life exists beyond the grave, than this is the only logical answer.

It is the only logical answer as to why God allows suffering, happiness,
failure, or success. Because each of these experiences are unique onto
themselves and each must be experienced individually to be completely

If you try to imagine an eternity of happiness, devoid of any sadness, you
will find it impossible because sadness gives happiness perspective.

This answer "We are here for the experience" is the only answer
that is adequate for all questions. We are here to experience pain and
pleasure, and to learn, and grow, and become more than what we were

It answers why God allows a child to be born malformed, or to die of
starvation. It answers why some are born into luxury while others toil
as slaves...for the experience.

We are here, and everything alive is here...for the experience.

Our purpose is to experience it all, so that we can truly experience

posted on Jul, 2 2009 @ 06:41 AM

Originally posted by WeSbO
Personnaly I do not believe in any religion, but I am not an atheist. I believe god is a name that was given for energy, so that god exists, energy surrounds us everywhere, god is always around everyone, god (energy) created life.
To me god does not have power over life or death of a person, but if you psychologicaly believe in something you want or need (by praying for example) the positive energy will help you.

I think only we have the possibility to change things, to demand the energy to intervene.

Anyway it's just my POV, people will think i'am mad.

I think you're a genius...

ps. a significant percentage of geniuses do end up in asylums

posted on Jul, 2 2009 @ 06:50 AM

Originally posted by Divinorumus

Originally posted by scared angel
Without free will we would just be robots, that means that some of us decide to act in such a way as to cause harm to others.

But if you take away free will, then we are nolonger individuals and we become nothing more than a collective of beings doing what they have been programmed to do ! Which to me is even more scary !!!

Ah, but you all ARE programmed robots. As I said in an earlier post, consider this:

Had any of you American flag waving Christians been swapped at birth with a baby born to a Muslim extremest, you would TODAY be yelling death to the infidels, death to the Christians. PROOF that many, most, of you are ALL just programmed robots! Your BELIEFS are NOT your OWN, they are not even a proven truth. FACT! Your beliefs are the beliefs of those that came before you, which have been placed, indoctrinated, programmed, into your minds! FACT.

Consider this carefully, because, like I said, you all could be being deceived and worshiping a false idol, a false god and false dogma .. invented by sinful egotistical man and his church empires ... for god only knows what reasons.

If god exists and wants us to know him or her, wouldn't you think you could find god, the truth, instead of a hand-me-down belief, all on your own? Does god really play hide-and-go-seek in all of these various different conflicting religions and churches? I find that hard to believe too.

Very well put. Star'd.

It is sad for me to watch as people bash against the religions.

There have only been false prophets. There is no set way for everyone to go down the right path; the path is different for each individual.

Out of 6 billion people, there are 6 billion unique paths.

The false prophets did not intend to be false prophets. They simply found their True path, and wanted to take others along with them, though they had not understood that it was their path alone.

Many people also, when speaking about "God," believe that they have to only mention the current religions of today, rather than speaking of Him simply as an entity that is out there.

Each religion had started with a man or woman who had found their Path.

Can you blame them for trying to show as many as they could the Truth?

Down the line, there is no doubt that the messages these people gave the world were corrupted and remade, whether it be primitive "trolls" of long ago, intending to do harm to the religion, or simply by mistake.

People do not realize that as individuals, when they look at another and see their beliefs, and see how well it is working for the person, this does not mean it is right for you.

Look inside yourself. Sit outside and listen to nature. Meditate. Listen to music. Watch movies. Read books. Become attuned to the reality you live in.

Once you can close your eyes and picture your reality, you can then begin to figure out your own Path.

posted on Jul, 2 2009 @ 06:59 AM

Originally posted by NATRAsleep
I Know What You Mean, An Artist Doesn't Destroy His Masterpiece

No, but will an artist not erase a finger that is too long, or eyes that are set too far apart?

Many people take it as fact that humans have already been created, rather than being the beginning of beings that will be much more.

posted on Jul, 2 2009 @ 07:00 AM
DGTEMPE, Hope you don't take this wrong. The only reason I'm writing this is because I care. Growing up Catholic doesn't make one a Christian. God is only Father to those He has Fathered. Those who have experienced a new birth with the holy spirit from God by His Son. You can blame Almighty God, Jehovah if you want to for the tribulation we all experience at different degrees on a daily basis. When all along your true enemy sits back laughing. Satan, the Devil has had a long time to doctor the playing field to his advantage. He at one time was an Arch Angel until he fell by PRIDE. He has you exactly where he wants you. Against the Creator! The Creator has always been for you, not against you. But, the true enemy has blinded you! You know this is true! But, pride was his downfall and will be many who will fall by it. It is the enemies nature.

posted on Jul, 2 2009 @ 07:01 AM
The thing is, God knows that we are not the body.

We exist here, in this place so that we have the experience of not knowing what we truly are. Even if we intellectually understand, we still don' have the experience of it.

From God's point of view, everything is presently perfect, we all love infinitely, and everything is as it should be.

The problem is, since most of us aren't even close to discovering what we are, we suffer a great deal. Why? Because our human nature imposes limitations on love.

Our ancestors needed to be have a desire for sex so that the species could live.

They also needed to conserve energy so they they could fight, or be ready.

Food was not readily available, so they had to eat whatever they had when they had it.

They had to amass as much land or supplies as possible so that they cold endure unforeseen hardships.

They had to get angry so that adrenaline could put them in a fight or flight situation to allow them to survive conflict or disaster.

They needed a sense self importance, so they defended themselves, and their tribe.

They needed a desire to improve so when they saw good things elsewhere, they'd take the idea.

These looking familiar? To Christians, these general things our ancestors needed to survive became the 7 deadly sins. They do cause a lot of suffering now that we are in different living conditions.

Excessively attempting to acquire sex can lead to suffering. If we are rejected we suffer, if we are with someone and have sex with someone else we suffer. If we have sex and get a disease we suffer.

Our ancestors needed to conserve energy, they worked a lot, so they needed to rest. But we don't work near as much, or as hard, this manifests as sheer laziness. We become comfortable, and the more we seek comfort, the more enslaved to it we become. Comfort is not bad, need of comfort is.

Food was not available then, but it is now. People eat food, often food the body was not designed to digest, so it makes the body sick, and we eat huge quanities with little physical activities so we get fat and weak.

We had to amass as many resources as possible so that we could survive hardship. But now in our comfortable lives, we still strive for more and more, weather it is money, sex, food, items, we desire for more, and when we do not get it, we suffer. If we do get it, it was not enough to satisfy us long, and we suffer.

Our ancestors didn't have the highly refined thought capacity that we have now, it relied on adrenaline and beastial rage to survive. But now, we get angry when trivial things happen. Spilled drink, bad weather, comments on the radio or tv, or from a boss. This anger prevents us from knowing peace.

There was a need to have a concept of self-importance. But now we use that to compare ourselves to others, and think of ourselves as wrongly superior or inferior. This causes us much suffering.

We needed to improve, so if we saw a good idea, we'd take it. But now, this is envy, when we want to be like others, and have all the same trinkets and lifestyle they have.

These are some of the reasons we suffer. Our ancestors needed these to live, but now that society has changed, we still have these urges within us.

Our inner human is programed to accept data that we believe is true. In this way, if a child is grown up being told he is a klutz, as he grows, he will believe this, and he may believe he is inadequate in all he does. Likewise, if he is brought up to believe white people are superior, he will accept this.

When we ask a friend to hang out, if they decline, we may go into a whole downward spiral. "He rejected me, doesn't want to be around me." Then we may feel guilty because of something we once said that may have made our friend dislike us. We feel shame because of this, or fear that our friend has replaced us. So we try to hide from the possibility. Our heart aches because we expected it to go our way, but now that our plans have failed, we don't know what to do. We may try to do internal damage control thinking "F him then. I don't need him." Imposing more separation in your mind between you and that person.

These are just examples of ways we can make ourselves feel bad.

To God, if the body dies, it is non-dramatic. The person is eternal, ever-lasting. As the soul is eternal, if you choose to suffer for a few hundred years in various incarnations, you chose to do so, and you were allowed to have this experience. To eternity, a few hundred years is nothing.

We are given freewill. Every second we choose what data we accept as true, we choose if we will yield to our animal programing, we decide if we will impose limitations on love by putting up walls between ourselves and others.

At the core, our nature is unity, love, eternity, infinity. But, we wanted the experience of being deprived of this. So, we are incarnated on earth, and go through many experiences. Each one either reveals more of our true nature, or hides it by enforcing our programing.

To God, he knows we are all going to be fully enlightened one day, and that we already are, we just don't know it yet. He knows we are all inescapably one, and our nature is to love unconditionally. Every second, we choose if we are going to be more like a human, or more like our Divine nature.

Watch TV/Play with the kids
Read threads on ATS/Spend time trying to cheer up someone who is down
Sleep in/get up and do the job.
Bad mouth one another/Try to encourage peace
Complain about politics in front of the TV/organize a protest
Stay quiet/tell someone you love them
Look in the mirror and hate yourself/Learn to love yourself
Do the same thing day in day out/work towards accomplishing something meaningful to you
Compare yourself to others/try to make your life better
Play video games/volunteer to raise money for charity
Sit around and do nothing really/work on making yourself a happier person
Seek vengeance/seek the solution that will end suffering in that situation

Every second, we have the choice, inch closer to becoming what we really are, or enforce our programing that tells us we are limited.

God doesn't choose to keep us suffering, we choose. If a person dies, temporarily the veil is lifted, at least to that person's highest level of evolution so far, until the next incarnation. Death is non-dramatic. Why should God intervene, when we choose to suffer?

posted on Jul, 2 2009 @ 07:02 AM
I'm not sure if dgtempe will find much solace in a few random bible quotes.

[edit on 2-7-2009 by T0by]

posted on Jul, 2 2009 @ 07:08 AM
If you love something, then you will set it free. If it loves you, then it will come back.

You wanted to know both good and evil to be like god. Well here you have it. The only way to know both good and evil is to be subjected to it and to experience it. No different than you can't understand what it means to be hot, if you have not experienced both hot and cold.

One must always remember that part of having free will is the ability to give it away. But now you wish to blame god for your own choices?

Your fears all arise because you only see yourself as flesh, and you see the death of flesh as the end. If you truly want to understand, then you will need to seek the personal journey and find out who/what "you" really are. You do not understand because you do not realize what you truly are.

Know thyself.

posted on Jul, 2 2009 @ 07:09 AM

Originally posted by dgtempe
He made us, damn it. Why did he make us FLAWED. Its HIS fault.

I hear ya'. The same thoughts have been running through my head for a while now. I don't want to be thinking like this .. but there it is ...

What do we call a man who makes children but then fails to tend to their needs and who blows town? A dead beat dad. Every so often that phrase goes through my head when I'm trying to figure out God.

God seems to help certain people and others he seems to ignore.

It's very frustrating to try to understand. Sometimes I get ticked off.

And when people say 'Gods ways are not our ways' ... that's not very helpful.

Originally posted by ELECTRICkoolaidZOMBIEtest
do you think he deserves being worshiped?

Good question.

He's in charge. It does no good to argue with Him.
But I admit that I have an extremely hard time trusting Him.

Originally posted by tallcool1
Catholics and Christians are completely different in their beliefs.

Catholics ARE Christians.

Originally posted by Riposte
You suffer because you choose to suffer.

I didn't choose glaucoma, kidney stones, osteoperosis, heart problems, etc.

Originally posted by Totakeke
God didn't make us flawed, He made us perfect. Remember Adam and Eve?

Creation myth. All cultures have them. But they aren't real.

Originally posted by octotom
God did intervene, in a very big way in fact. God came to Earth, in the form of a man, and died, then rose again so that all who would believe in him, could be with him forever. This is Jesus Christ..

That's one thing in billions of years of Earth history...

posted on Jul, 2 2009 @ 07:12 AM
A few random Bible quotes can save a person unto Eternal life. namely Romans 10: 9,10 Believed and confessed For with the heart man believes unto righteousness and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. TRUTH MATTERS!

posted on Jul, 2 2009 @ 07:14 AM
reply to post by dgtempe

You sound angry. First you must let go of that anger. There are two Forces at work in our universe. There is the Creator's Force-God. Then there is the Dark side. It is in dark matter. It wants to extinguish all life. God wants life to experience and to spread life. We are created in His/Her/Its image because we are the ruling Gods over the cells in our body. Those cells pass on their experiences to us, so that we can use them to experience in the physical world. These cells lack the capacity to understand how our consciousness works, but they just like us, experience lives. Think of human beings as the stem cells. We can do anything that the other animals could do for God and for our planet. Our planet is a living organism and so are all the other ones. So are all the larger systems the planet belongs to.

Try not to think of God as the artificial construct that many have been lead to believe in. He won't speak to you in English. He won't come out in the clouds as a big face. To him we are even smaller than the cells in our body, but we are still a part of God. We can serve God by letting life flourish. Our near future goal is to spread Earth's life to Mars, the moon, and the like. If you were to fly on a spaceship right now to the outer reaches of the Universe and then beyond that eventually you get far away enough to see the entire Universe as one bright light. This is how we can see God in our dimension. Even though this is how we see God there are many more dimensions in which God exists. Our universe is merely like one of God's fingers or toes.

We also exist in multiple dimensions. There is your physical body as it relates to the outer world. Then there is the inner world of our body. Then there is the energy body. All of our cells convert sensory experiences into energy so that we can feel them. We are inhabiters of our bodies. Truth only lies within. The outer body that we see in the mirror is only our vessel, a tool to experience the physical world that brings all the other worlds together. There is a whole book that explains God and human paranormal powers logically. I have read it and it has guided me to understand God and the universe.

search it in google. The writer is giving it out free to anyone in PDF form because he wants us to help God. The closer we get to God the closer we get to full-filling our life's purpose. The things they teach in the Bible about what are sins and what are virtues also applies to the God explained in this book. This book brings it all together. All of it.

posted on Jul, 2 2009 @ 07:14 AM

Originally posted by dgtempe
Thank you for your replies.

I have respect for the God i grew up beileiving in, but now, i say, why, why is he not here when we need him? I cant believe that fairy tale of Eve and the apple. Sorry.

We are flawed. Which means God is flawed. A huge big book called the bible, full of threats, is that a compassionate God???

We either worship him or we have a horrible end?????

I'm seriously confused.

God created the Universe because It required to become greater than infinite by also becoming finite, in an unlimited number of ways and instances. Then commune with the finite entities to obtain and withhold that conciousness set of space-time frames. This will take forever to complete in a very, very large space.

You, me, everything are tools for completion of the mission of Self. Good, bad, ecstatic, horrible all must be accomplished for completion.

The other Self-imposed requirement is to fill an infinite domain with an unlimited number of kinetic participant witnesses. Sux to be alone. God wants to be loved just like we do. Love can only happen when it is because of free will choice. The problem with this requirement is us finite entities are required to have no supernatural influence. (Direct contact visually or audibly, etc.) If God made a direct showing then you will conclude: "ohp, there He is, now I gotta worship this or else." That is not love born of free will, it is not true love, or any kinda of love at all, it's forced servitude.

Yet once you simply ask for the connection to God, wait for it, this Door will be built into your birth-to-death space-time recording (Book of Life, if you'd rather). Work on vision and Law of Attraction and at some point the hope becomes an Object planted in your recording. Faith converts to material (Door). Through which you engage in Communion. God reaps the harvest of witnessing finite conciousness (the reason all this was created in the first place) and God feeds you with Presence to grow you in prep for your conversion/inversion from a space-free/time locked entity to the space-locked/time-free entity (you die). God needs to further use you to be a kinetic (expansing) conciousness forever in the unlimited domain. (reason for all this no. 2)

God, in perfect domain, had to create finite. That's a tough one... to create a singularity, a one. In order to do this God had to create a null, a zero. Ininite All choose to "die" by entering inifinite (and impossible) non-existance. The balance was created by the "Father" willfully dying for an infinitesimal period, creating a single infinitesimal point, a one and a zero at the same time. (Adam and Eve) Then it really hit the fan when kinetic imbalance of emergence of the Father from "infinitesimal and impossible death" (creation of dimensions and time) started makin' babies with those 1's and 0's. So here we are, spherically expanding One forever and at an infinite rate, caused by reproduction/replication of infinitesimal points (all these females!) Man, that's a lot of Sex at an infinite rate. Each infinitesimal point is a foundation (child) to generate space. The kinetics of this Sex creates time.

For us? Record the Door, that's it, all done. The whole Jesus thing? Well, like Father, like Son. Jesus "drama thing" as someone put it, Had to die to create that Door. But the death on our side was only half of the dying. The other half is why it's such an unbelievable sacrifice. The Son Entity instead of CHOOSING to enter instantly into the Mind of the Father after death, remains with one foot in this world and the other foot in the Fathers Domain, holding open the Door, being the Door, forever. That must suck. I couldn't sacrifice eternal newness, kinetic conciousness for all these dirtbags here. Meh, like Father, like Son. Father had to die, Son had to die.

Just ask for the Door, it's free and all yours. (Glad I don't have to do any of the work)

posted on Jul, 2 2009 @ 07:15 AM
reply to post by FlyersFan

But such things do not describe you. They describe your flesh.

Think of you body as being like a car. You drive it around, but the car is not you, it's just a vessel.

Such things don't describe you, they describe your experience. If I get a geo metro or a ferrari, neither of them defines me. But they will define my experience.

posted on Jul, 2 2009 @ 07:19 AM

Originally posted by dgtempe
I never post about religion. I grew up Catholic but i dont know much about religion.

I am wondering, instead of sending us fire and brimstone, why doesnt a compassionate God intervene in a way that will not kill, men women and children, a planet that will hit and blow us out of orbit, and horrible things like that???

He made us, damn it. Why did he make us FLAWED. Its HIS fault.

There's nothing compassionate here that i can see.

If you read the bible, particularly the book of genesis it is explained in the texts.

Man was created in the garden of eden with free will, naked, innocent, eternal, without knowledge of anything else other than god and the things within the garden.

Lucifer tempted man with the tree of knowledge and in turn man was corrupted by it. The punishment if you like, is life like this. Man was never originally meant to work like we do, eat like we do, die like we do etc.

This is our trial and god is the judge for what of a better way to explain it in a nutshell.

Life is a path of knowledge between good and evil. Its your decision what you want to become.

I hope this helps you, id ignore people spamming with flaming comments and you asked a good question.

If your still interested but dont feel like posting religious topics U2U me if you want and ill help if I can.

[edit on 2-7-2009 by XXXN3O]

posted on Jul, 2 2009 @ 07:20 AM

Thank you for your replies. I have respect for the God i grew up beileiving in, but now, i say, why, why is he not here when we need him? I cant believe that fairy tale of Eve and the apple. Sorry. We are flawed. Which means God is flawed. A huge big book called the bible, full of threats, is that a compassionate God??? We either worship him or we have a horrible end????? I'm seriously confused.

Not sure how recent this is, but I'll answer your questions anyway.

God is always there when you need Him. Just pray; talk to Him. He understands. If you're wondering why something doesn't always happen for the better when you pray, that's just God's plan. He could have something better in store or He might just want you to wait. He knows what's best.

Just because we are flawed doesn't mean God is flawed. You say you don't believe that Eve ate the fruit off the tree, but that's a crucial point in Christianity. That's the moment we became flawed, because we disobeyed God.

The Bible isn't full of threats, it's full of stories, wisdom, and guidance. It's God's Word. But that doesn't mean it's without warning. The Bible is very clear about what happens to those whom reject Christ's salvation.

All God requires not to go to Hell is complete repentance of one's sins and accepting that Jesus died on the cross for our sins.

[edit on 2-7-2009 by Totakeke]

posted on Jul, 2 2009 @ 07:20 AM
Some Catholics are Christian some are not. Fallen mankind must be born again as Jesus instructed Nicodemus a certain RELIGIOUS fellow. No matter what religion you say you are a part of. We must be Born Again of the Spirit of God to worship God in spirit and in truth.

posted on Jul, 2 2009 @ 07:24 AM
reply to post by badmedia

But it still hurts.

Kidney stones hurt. glaucoma and going blind hurts. heart problems hurt.
I'm talking physically and spiritually.

If my child was in pain and I could do something about it ... I would.

I dont' understand why a 'loving Father' leaves the world in pain.

I TRY to understand ... but I can't.

posted on Jul, 2 2009 @ 07:25 AM
reply to post by FlyersFan

The world is in pain because of sin. We chose to disobey God in the beginning and this is what happened. We got what we paid for.

posted on Jul, 2 2009 @ 07:26 AM

Originally posted by badmedia
reply to post by FlyersFan

But such things do not describe you. They describe your flesh.

Think of you body as being like a car. You drive it around, but the car is not you, it's just a vessel.

Such things don't describe you, they describe your experience. If I get a geo metro or a ferrari, neither of them defines me. But they will define my experience.

You should definitely recommend the source that told you this. You got that right out of THE HANDBOOK FO THE NAVIGATOR.

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