Skeptics seem to rely on FAITH for Flight 93 buried claim

reply to post by benoni


And thats where you are operating under false assumptions.

reply to post by SPreston


SPrestong, your "understanding" of basic science is laughable, at best, and downright pathetic at worst. So far you have shown very little understanding of anything technical and nothing that shows you know what you are talking about. Do you pay attention at all? Or do you just troll along ignoring hard facts and evidence because it does not fit you twisted reality?

FACT: There was a breeze moving southeast from the cash site which is more than enough to carry light materials away.

FACT: Light debris WAS sucked into the fireball at the moment of the crash. Its basic physics there. Something YOU obviously have NO clue about, and show it time and time again. The energy and heat of the rising fireball carries up light debris and allows the wind to carry it away. THAT is called having an understanding of meteorology. (Another thing you dont understand) Also I would suggest you learn a thing or two about how fireballs and mushroom clouds work.

FACT: Light debris was RECOVERED by numerous first responders, eyewitnesses, recovery personell, and also observed by numerous sources exactly downwind.

FACT: Some of the aircraft WILL get buried in the crater it created. A 757 has a LOT of force when its traveling 500mph in a nosedive. (Gasp, another thing you cannot comprehend: basic physics). That does not mean that the crash will magically bury every single peice and keep the fireball contained in the ground. No, another false assumption based on no comprehension of basic crash physics. The impact and fireball will cause light debris to go up into the fireball while some of the heaviest debris will go and get buried in the groudnd due to greater mass and velocity.

No offense SPreston, but i am just stating the facts and not trying to insult you. You obviously have little to NO understanding of basic sciences, and yet you accuse me of having cartoon science? Sad, really sad SPreston. Look if you dont understand something then dont pretend that you do, just say "I'm sorry I dont understand what you are saying cause I never learned this stuff," and stop trying to sound like you know more than me or others who really do know, because right now, you have no clue and it is showing like a sore thumb.

reply to post by ATH911


What does it matter how much of the plane was "buried"? How should I know I was not at the recovery site. I was not with the first responders, or the recovery crew that worked for weeks inside the crater and surrounding areas. I was in a high school 800 miles away.

Rather than sit here and ask redundent questions and behaving incredulously, why dont you go and write to those that DID the actual recovery? Those that had to dig into the crater and clean the surrounding area? Ask them, I'm sure they'll give you a good idea of what they recovered and how much.

But alas, if you cant get past the first requirement of understanding physcis and understanding just how much force is behind a 757 @ 500mph in a nosedive, then we cant move along to more advanced things.

I conclude from the last few posts above that its not disinfo types sometimes.....


....it must be children.



Because some of the utter nonsense that gets "sold" as fact, even though the person knows it not to be so,is so childlike !!

Your lucky you didnt need ID to get in here ....

Any chance of pointing me in the direction Gen of the site that educated you to an advanced level and showed you about fireballs sucking up that light debris .....

But hang on....
Surely you arent saying the plane divebombed at 500mph into the ground , which in turn caused a fireball, which in turn caused some kind of vaccuum which in turn sucked up thelight debris causing it to then blow over an area of 8 miles??

If so....

Which came first...
The fireball you mentioned...

Or the light debris.....??

Where did the light debris come from??

Shouldnt it have been buried with the supposed vast majority of the alleged plane???




Is this photo the smoke from your fireball, and if so, would i be correct in saying a titanium jet engine and the socalled light debris is in fact being transported by this smoke cloud as the photo was taken??

reply to post by benoni




Boy oh boy, when you sure have no clue what you are talking about, you sure are pretty funny trying to make it sound like you do!

Lets count the errors in your comment shall we?

#1
If you are saying that my comments are made by "children" then I guess the "children" are sure smarter than you. Oh and facts are not disinformation. Claiming a magic "shoot-down" or "no planes", THAT is disinfo. Pay attention.

#2
Ah so you are too lazy to look up the mechanics of fireballs and exactly how they behave, and are expecting me to look it up for you? Why I should I look it up for you? Are you unable to do so yourself or are afraid of learning something that makes you look foolish? I guess you have never bothered to learn the basics of how a fireball and mushroom cloud work. (by the way, you can also learn about how a tornado can send paper and light debris tens and hundreds of miles away. ) I would recommend you read up on mushroom clouds and what are "afterwinds" and how they behave during the production of a mushroom cloud. (hint, it has something to do with updrafts)

#3
Since when will light debris behave the same way as a few hundred tons of aluminum, titanium, steel, etc? Ignorance must be bliss for you.

#4
I dont recall them finding a titanium jet engine 8 miles away, however a blade from it is a different story. FYI: 2,000ft away is not 8 miles. (thats basic mathematics there). Oh by the way, the whole entire engine is not made from titanium alone. But you knew that right?

#5
I would go back and read the reports and accounts of other similar accidents of airliners including Northwest Airlines Flight 710, United Airlines Flight 585, and Swiss Air Flight 111.
Some of which can be found here:
wtc7lies.googlepages.com...

I especially would like to highlight for you NWA Flight 710:

This is part of the report of the crash site as discovered, and this was a Lockheed Electra aircraft, smaller and different than a 757. However read closely the description of the crater. Its from the Civil Aeronautics Board report.

#6
The mushroom cloud was the initial carrier of the light debris. Correct! (Now you are beginning to understand). The rising air and winds from the fireball and mushroom cloud has enough power to lift up light debris (ie cloths, papers, shards of aluminum, human remains, insulation) and then have the winds carry them to a farther position away from the initial impact zone. Its just like how an atomic bomb's mushroom cloud can carry dirt, dust, and debris high into the atmosphere, so can any large explosions that occur at the ground. And yes, even heavier objects can be ejected from the site if the impact and explosion is powerful enough. Again, an understanding of physics and a little research is most helpful.

#7 (and last)
Do you know what debris was discovered 8 miles away? Do you know what constitutes as light debris?

[edit: fix link]

[edit on 7/10/2009 by GenRadek]

*yawn*


Wow...what a long winded justification for FACTS ala genradek!!

We shouldnt really be wasting this good persons thread with our back and forth nonsense...

But....

The FACT remains, regardless of your deflectionary tactics and putdowns towards anybody who questions the "official word" you espouse,there is such scant evidence of a plane crash, so scant in fact that we are still looking for the plane....REPEAT...no plane...no wreckage...nothing that vaguely gives one the impression of a plane crash...!!

Same for the Pentagon...no plane....FACT.


If i dug a hole in my garden and told you a plane had crashed there, yet couldnt provide photographic evidence sufficient to prove there was indeed a crash, would you believe me????

Thanks for clearing things up though buddy...showing me the way....

Originally posted by benoni

Ahh round and round the "ignorance wheel" spins. I'm really getting tired of this wheel of ignorance from you benoni. The trolling is really starting to get old.

Back and forth nonsense? You call clearing up lies, misinfo, disinfo, and ignorance nonsense? So I guess you really are not interested in the truth. Only the "truth" or as it is so well portrayed another way: the "twoof" !

You are looking for a plane that crashed @ 500mph in a nosedive? You expect to find recognizable parts of it? Like a whole wing or an entire fuselage or intact corpses? I'm going to have to repeat something to you that I told SPreston since both of you are lacking the same integral thing: Do you even understand the forces of a 757 impacting the solid ground @ 500mph? If you can't even understand that first and integral fact and use those basic critical thinking skills you may just never be expected to understand more complicated things like how a mushroom cloud works. hell, I even posted a link to another plane crash that was very similar in its ending and even the CAB report on how the crater was. Damn near identical. But as usual YOU ignored it. So right now as it stands I can see that YOU are NOT interested in the truth, only your preconceived notion of some magic uber-complicated inside job plot.

Oh no debris? Where are you typing from? Under a rock? Or are you just ignoring everything that just doesnt fit in your fantasy? We have already posted numerous, numerous pictures of the crash site, of the debris, of the engine, of the scattered debris, of bolts, etc etc. but of course as usual YOU IGNORED it. I thought ATS was all about Denying Ignorance. So what exactly are you doing here?

By the way, are you telling me that somehow YOU and SPreston are better than professional crash scene investigators from the NTSB, CAB, fire and rescue, and other crash scene recovery workers that were actually there? You expect me to believe that somehow the evil magic NWO/Illuminatii/Bush and Cheney Co./Skull&Bones/Mickey MOuse Club managed to fool hundreds and maybe even thousands of professional crash scene investigators and rescue and recovery personnel with years and years of experience under their belts of numerous crash scenes, and yet only you and few other college boys, who have probably never even seen a car wreck up close in their lives, much less a plane crash, have managed to uncover the set up and figure it all out without even being at the crash scene and by just looking at two or three pictures on the internet from their parents' basements?
Wow! What a world we live in. Its like Idiocracy was truly a
prophesy!

EDIT to add:
I'll repost this again, though I wonder what is the point, but this is a report of another plane crash of similar results. Its from the CAB and if I were you, I'd read it and pay VERY CLOSE ATTENTION to it:


[edit on 7/11/2009 by GenRadek]

Originally posted by GenRadek
You expect to find recognizable parts of it? Like a whole wing or an entire fuselage or intact corpses?

Please explain why exponent, who is a believer in the government story, believes that fuselage sections were dug from the ground.

Originally posted by GenRadek
Do you even understand the forces of a 757 impacting the solid ground @ 500mph?

Please provide the calculations that show how those forces will bury a large part of the plane to a depth of around 40 feet or whatever the government story wishes to use.

Don't just talk about the forces, GenRadek and expect people to believe you. It's a weak form of argument. It shows that you're not prepared to sustain your own claim, or you're unable to sustain your own claim.

You can not expect people to 'understand the forces' when you're not prepared to show them the calculations to understand the forces.

Go ahead, start your equations.

reply to post by tezzajw


tezz did YOU read the links I provided? Specifically the picture link. Read very closely of that report. It will shed some new light on the idea that a good part of the fuselage got buried in the crater.

And tezz, its not that hard to do the calculations. I dont need to because I DO understand how much force is behind a crash like this. Its not that hard to imagine or understand. But somehow something so simple is just not readily understandable by you or others is beyond me. I mean do your eally NEED to have all the numbers laid out ina pretty little package before you accept it? Or can you use a little something called "common sense" and or "critical thinking"? Or do you enjoy just trolling along with increduility and making snark remarks when obviously YOU cannot understand something simple?

[edit on 7/13/2009 by GenRadek]

Originally posted by GenRadek
tezz did YOU read the links I provided? Specifically the picture link. Read very closely of that report. It will shed some new light on the idea that a good part of the fuselage got buried in the crater.

It's more than typical of you to avoid what I asked you, GenRadek.

I asked you to show me the calculations that prove a large part of the alleged Flight UA93 was buried in the crater, but all you do is refer me to links about other off-topic plane crashes.

Originally posted by GenRadek
And tezz, its not that hard to do the calculations. I dont need to because I DO understand how much force is behind a crash like this.

Oh, man... is this the level of proof that you really want to try and use?

You're claiming that it's not hard, yet you still refuse to do them! Every single government story believer who I have asked, has refused to show me the calculations! Even some of them with an alleged mathematical background have avoided showing me how the alleged Flight UA93 managed to displace enough dirt to bury itself inside the crater, with the dirt falling right back on top.

Originally posted by GenRadek
Its not that hard to imagine or understand. But somehow something so simple is just not readily understandable by you or others is beyond me. I mean do your eally NEED to have all the numbers laid out ina pretty little package before you accept it?

Yes. Don't expect me to 'imagine' it, GenRadek. You're appealing to my sense of imagination to believe your story? Why? Is it that unbelievable that you're wanting me to imagine it, instead of seeing it proven?

You can note that exponent claimed that there were large fuselage sections that were dug out from the crater. The moment I challenged him to prove it, he's avoided the claim ever since.

Originally posted by GenRadek
Or can you use a little something called "common sense" and or "critical thinking"?

Right... the same common sense and critical thinking where a person can 'imagine' a plane displacing tons of dirt, which then reburies the plane. A-huh. Clearly, we live in different worlds of common sense.

Originally posted by GenRadek
Or do you enjoy just trolling along with increduility and making snark remarks when obviously YOU cannot understand something simple

I enjoy watching official government story believers continually failing to prove to me that a large part of the alleged Flight UA93 was buried in a crater.

There's always more for me to enjoy when I read little gems such as you wanting me to 'imagine' what happened - instead of you using mathematical equations and physics to prove what happened.

I love how the skeptics are bringing up OTHER plane crashes to try to prove most of Flight 93 was buried! I guess the Shanks scene doesn't have any evidence to prove it was buried, so the skeptics are having to rely of FAITH again.

Of course they have to bring up other plane crashes because no 757 crashed at Shanks.

Don't you think its funny that they found an Arabic bandanna but the tail section is not to be found.

But what you have to remember is this, on 9/11, not only did common sense go out the window, but the laws of physics themselves..... At least according to the official story.


D.Duck

What makes me gently s'n-word' re- the buried plane and soft soil, is why oh why was the soil needing to be soft?, have we not seen these Boeing`s pierce 5-7 metres of reinforced concrete (Pentagon), and cut through a skyscraper like the proverbial hot knife.

Come on guys we`ve seen what these bad boys are capable of, do they have assorted nose cone options which can be changed by the pilots to suit the respective predicaments they face?, cork screw for tunnelling, thermal lance and Thermite for tempered steel, and tungsten and diamond tipped attachment for reinforced concrete, maybe Thunderbird Two nose cone for those watery moments.

posted by tezzajw

I asked you to show me the calculations that prove a large part of the alleged Flight UA93 was buried in the crater, but all you do is refer me to links about other off-topic plane crashes.

posted by GenRadek

And tezz, its not that hard to do the calculations. I dont need to because I DO understand how much force is behind a crash like this.

posted by tezzajw

Oh, man... is this the level of proof that you really want to try and use?

Did GenRadek really write that? Hilarious.

What a copout.

Can't possibly provide the calculations you ask for;

but it is my FAITH which sustains me.

My wonderful invigorating FAITH in my government god.

A perfect representative of the pseudoskeptics and government loyalists and shills hanging around desperately trying to salvage the self-destructing 9-11 OFFICIAL STORY.

reply to post by tezzajw


Tezz its simple:

F=MA

Now fill in the blanks, I'm not going to do your homework. Figure out the mass of the 757, and its acceleration at the moment of impact and there you go.
Now use those few brain cells and go for it. Heck, maybe you'll learn something. Rather than count on everyone else to hand you everything on a golden platter. Even if I do give you the "answer" you probably STILL won't believe it.

Originally posted by SPreston

posted by tezzajw

I asked you to show me the calculations that prove a large part of the alleged Flight UA93 was buried in the crater, but all you do is refer me to links about other off-topic plane crashes.

posted by GenRadek

And tezz, its not that hard to do the calculations. I dont need to because I DO understand how much force is behind a crash like this.

posted by tezzajw

Oh, man... is this the level of proof that you really want to try and use?

Did GenRadek really write that? Hilarious.

What a copout.

Can't possibly provide the calculations you ask for;

but it is my FAITH which sustains me.

My wonderful invigorating FAITH in my government god.

A perfect representative of the pseudoskeptics and government loyalists and shills hanging around desperately trying to salvage the self-destructing 9-11 OFFICIAL STORY.

selfdestructing? in the eyes of whom? A select few whose understanding of basic physics, chemistry, and science is comparable to that of a toddler?
Enough with the labels SPreston, cause apparently, the only things left for you and the rest of the CT to use are incredulity and namecalling. And unfortunately for you, that doesn't help your side at all.

Originally posted by GenRadek
Tezz its simple:
F=MA
Now fill in the blanks, I'm not going to do your homework. Figure out the mass of the 757, and its acceleration at the moment of impact and there you go.

You made the claim that you understood the forces. You make the claim that it is as simple as F=ma.

It is clearly obvious that no official government story believer, including GenRadek, can show the calculations required for the alleged Flight UA93 to bury itself inside the crater.

Originally posted by GenRadek
Even if I do give you the "answer" you probably STILL won't believe it.

This is a pointless statement. You have not provided your series of calculations to show how tons of dirt can be displaced, to bury the plane and then recover the plane.

GenRadek, along with a whole host of official government story believers, you have not been able to show the equations.

Clearly, you do not understand the forces involved, otherwise you would have used physics and maths to show me how your claim is possible.

Your avoidance to prove your claim states volumes about the courage of your conviction.

reply to post by tezzajw


Simply stunning tezz, your answers are simply stunning.

I see, so YOU need all the numbers in a neat little package, rather than doing a little bit of work so that maybe you can learn something yourself. I dont need to do the calculations because I dont need to have a physcis degree to understand how a freaking 757 @ 500 mph is going to displace a lot of dirt when it impacts nearly vertically into a dirt field. I've read about and studied other plane crashes that were similar in nature and when they describe the scene, it is not that hard to use your brain and extend those observations to this crash. Which is why I posted the link from the CAB report on the crater of NW Airlines flight. But no tezz you rather ignore it, and get into semantics and nit picking which you are so expert at. By God, I wish you were this nitpicky towards Jones and other conspiracy theorists with even weaker stories and wilder imaginations.

posted by GenRadek
reply to post by tezzajw

 

By God, I wish you were this nitpicky towards Jones and other conspiracy theorists with even weaker stories and wilder imaginations.

Nobody on this Earth has weaker stories and wilder imaginations than you General.

reply to post by SPreston


Says the person who STILL cannot find a single witness out of thousands of potential witnesses that would give an account of a Pentagon flyover, or how every single eyewitness account that you do try to prove a lfyover of the Pentagon all say it plowed right in, but by God you still use FAITH to PROVE there was a flyover. So no SPreston you still got nothing but fantasies, lies, and twists. But that ok, we enjoy it when people who are losing the battle (if one can call it that really) and resort to childish antics.

Oh and by they way, I wonder why you still cannot accept the fact that those that were at the crash site confirm it was Flight 93. Instead of arguing and acting like a child here with me, how about you go and write, call, email, send a telegraph or smoke signals to those that were at crash site and argue with them about how convinced you are there was no crash just by looking at a few photos taken from a longer distance and after the clean up. I'm sur ethey would just LOVE having you there telling them how your right and they are wrong.