It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.
Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.
Thank you.
Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.
Originally posted by Baloney
Having just read through this entire thread word for word, it is VERY CLEAR that there is NO eyewitness accounts available to support the existence of the MOST IMPORTANT FIGURE OF THE CHRISTIAN FAITH!!!
NONE!!!!!
In FACT, there is NOTHING AVAILABLE of ANY CREDIBILITY whatsoever to support the existence of a jesus character!!
From this, I can only arrive to the conclusion that believers in this jesus character are just simply unable to distinguish fairy tale from truth, fiction from non-fiction, and make-believe from reality. VERY SAD!!!
Beleiving in something that CLEARLY has NO credible substance available to justify its truth, is NO DIFFERENT THAN BELIEF IN THE EASTER BUNNY.
A total BRAINWASHING job you poor fools have fallen for.
EXCELLENT WORK OP!!!
Originally posted by texastig
Michael Martin, a philosophical atheist admits: "However, we have only one contemporary eyewitness account of a post resurrection appearance of Jesus, namely Paul's."
Michael Martin, The Case Against Christianity (Philadelphia: Temple University Press), p. 81.
Originally posted by texastig
As skeptical historian Michael Grant says "The historian... cannot justifiably deny the empty tomb", because using standard historical criteria, "the evidence is firm and plausible enough to necessitate the conclusion that the tomb was indeed found empty."
Michael Grant, Jesus: An Historian's Review of the Gospels (New York: Macmillan Publishing Co., 1992), p. 176.
Originally posted by texastig
That he was crucified is as sure as anything historical can ever be.
-John Dominic Crossan, Jesus: A Revolutionary Biography
Originally posted by fooks
is it me or do people forget about Pontius Pilate?
if i missed his name in this thread, forgive me!
Originally posted by fooks
he was real and documented, no?
or is his role in jesus life a "story" also?
Originally posted by fooks
maybe coz he didn't write about the trial in his auto-biography?
just confused as to whom ya'll mean, who MET historical Jesus.
Originally posted by texastig
It is a fact that Paul seen Peter and James. Then fourteen years later he goes back to seem them again and then John is with them.
Originally posted by texastig
Have you read the Bible? Peter was with Jesus for almost His whole ministry.
Originally posted by texastig
Then I guess that 99% of critical scholars are wrong which I doubt.
Originally posted by texastig
That's James the brother of Jesus whom Jesus and James had the same mother.
Originally posted by texastig
Critical scholars believe that Paul wrote 6-8 epistles. Paul met Jesus disciples on more than one occasion. Paul had first hand testimony from
Jesus disciples. Do you want to go and tell all of those critical scholars that they are wrong?
Originally posted by texastig
The Youtube video by Gary Habermas proves that Paul seen the disciples of Christ and talked with them.
Originally posted by Kapyong
You have NOT read the book, have you ?
I have.
He is arguing AGAINST Christianity!
You simply lifted that quote from somewhere while having NO idea what Martin is arguing.
His point is that ALL we have is ONE claim to have had a VISION of Jesus.
Which is WORHLESS as history.
Originally posted by Kapyong
Faithful beliefs of a faithful believer.
The empty tomb is NOT history at all.
Originally posted by Kapyong
A CLAIM.
No evidence.
Originally posted by Kapyong
See, that's the problem tex - you keep coming up with CLAIMS - mere BELIEFS of some Christians.
Originally posted by Kapyong
What you can't vome up with is any evidence of someone who actually MET a historical Jesus.
Originally posted by Kapyong
Please stop with the CLAIMS and BELIEFS.
Just admit there is no evidence.
Originally posted by Kapyong
But NOT a claim to have personally met a historical Jesus.
Originally posted by Kapyong
But NO claim to have met Jesus personally (2 Peter is forged.)
Originally posted by Kapyong
99% of scholars do NOT claim someone claimed to have personally met Jesus.
Originally posted by Kapyong
You keep posting CLAIMS and BELIEFS -
FAIL.
Originally posted by Kapyong
Really?
Does the letter of James say that ?
Originally posted by Kapyong
Your alleged BROTHER of Jesus says NOTHING about a historical Jesus in his letter.
Originally posted by Kapyong
You have NOT posted any evidence of anyone who claimed to have met a historical Jesus.
Because there ARE none.
Originally posted by Kapyong
Did those scholars say Paul claimed to have met someone who said they personally met Jesus?
No - failed again.
Originally posted by Kapyong
tex -
the point is clear -
there is NOT ONE authentic claim to have met Jesus, or anyone who met Jesus.
Every time you post some CLAIM or BELIEF, you emphasize that failure.
Originally posted by texastig
What do you think Peter and John were doing with Jesus for three years?
They walked with Him, lived with Him and talked with Him, etc...
Originally posted by texastig
Again, see my answer above.
Originally posted by texastig
Before turning to this topic, I will first note that the vast majority of scholars, both conservative and liberal alike, generally disdain radical theses that question the very existence of Jesus. For example, theologian Rudolf Bultmann asserted, "By no means are we at the mercy of those who doubt or deny that Jesus ever lived."
Originally posted by texastig
Historian Michael Grant termed the hypothesis that Jesus never lived an "extreme view." He charges that it transgresses the basics of historiography: "if we apply to the New Testament, as we should, the same sort of criteria as we should apply to other ancient writings containing historical material, we can no more reject Jesus' existence than we can reject the existence of a mass of pagan personages whose reality as historical figures is never questioned." Grant summarizes, after referring to Wells as an example: "modern critical methods fail to support the Christ-myth theory." These positions have been "annihilated" by the best scholars because the critics "have not succeeded in disposing of the much stronger, indeed very abundant, evidence to the contrary."[ii]
From: www.bethinking.org...
Originally posted by texastig
99% of scholars believe that Paul wrote 1cor 15 and Paul said that Peter seen Him and the twelve, etc...
Originally posted by texastig
So do you and they fail against the vast majority of scholars.
Originally posted by texastig
I'm not talking about the book of James.
Originally posted by texastig
Paul seen James. James told Paul about his brother Jesus.
Originally posted by texastig
He is not alleged. See my answer above.
Originally posted by texastig
Then that means your theories are against scholars who believe that Paul wrote 6-8 epistles. Scholars believe what Paul wrote was authentic!
Originally posted by texastig
Since the majority of scholars believe what Paul wrote was authentic, then it stands to reason in what Paul said about Peter and others seeing the resurrected Christ.
Originally posted by texastig
Kap, that is not true. Are you saying that all of the scholars are liars? Can you look at Gary Habermas's information or have you seen it?
Can I get your permission to send your original post to Gary for him to critique?
Originally posted by texastig
Kap, that is not true. Are you saying that all of the scholars are liars? Can you look at Gary Habermas's information or have you seen it?
Can I get your permission to send your original post to Gary for him to critique?
Non-biblical accounts of New Testament events and/or people
Following is a list of extra-biblical (outside of the Bible) references of biblical events, places, etc. The list is not exhaustive but is very representative of what is available.
Flavius Josephus (AD 37?-101?, a Jewish historian) mentions John the Baptist and Herod - Antiquities, Book 18, ch. 5, par. 2
"Now some of the Jews thought that the destruction of Herod's army came from God, and that very justly, as a punishment of what he did against John, that was called the Baptist: for Herod slew him, who was a good man, and commanded the Jews to exercise virtue, both as to righteousness towards one another, and piety towards God, and so to come to baptism; for that the washing [with water] would be acceptable to him, if they made use of it, not in order to the putting away [or the remission] of some sins [only], but for the purification of the body; supposing still that the soul was thoroughly purified beforehand by righteousness."
Flavius Josephus (AD 37?-101?) mentions Jesus - Antiquities, Book 18, ch. 3, par. 3.
Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, (9) those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; (10) as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.
There is debate among scholars as to the authenticity of this quote since it is so favorable to Jesus. For more information on this, please see Regarding the quotes from the historian Josephus about Jesus
Flavius Josephus (AD 37?-101?) mentions James, the brother of Jesus - Antiquities, Book 20, ch. 9.
"Festus was now dead, and Albinus was but upon the road; so he assembled the sanhedrim of judges, and brought before them the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James, and some others, [or, some of his companions]; and when he had formed an accusation against them as breakers of the law, he delivered them to be stoned: but as for those who seemed the most equitable of the citizens, and such as were the most uneasy at the breach of the laws, they disliked what was done."
Flavius Josephus (AD 37?-101?) mentions Ananias the High Priest who was mentioned in Acts 23:2
Now as soon as Albinus was come to the city of Jerusalem, he used all his endeavors and care that the country might be kept in peace, and this by destroying many of the Sicarii. But as for the high priest, Ananias (25) he increased in glory every day, and this to a great degree, and had obtained the favor and esteem of the citizens in a signal manner; for he was a great hoarder up of money
Acts 23:2, "And the high priest Ananias commanded those standing beside him to strike him [Paul] on the mouth."
Tacitus (A.D. c.55-A.D. c.117, Roman historian) mentions "Christus" who is Jesus - Annals 15.44
"Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular."
Ref. from classics.mit.edu...
Thallus (Circa AD 52, eclipse of the sun) Thallus wrote a history of the Eastern Mediterranean world from the Trojan War to his own time. His writings are only found as citations by others. Julius Africanus, who wrote about AD 221, mentioned Thallus' account of an eclipse of the sun.
"On the whole world there pressed a most fearful darkness; and the rocks were rent by an earthquake, and many places in Judea and other districts were thrown down. This darkness Thallus, in the third book of his History, calls, as appears to me without reason, an eclipse of the sun."
Is this a reference to the eclipse at the crucifixion? Luke 23:44-45, "And it was now about the sixth hour, and darkness fell over the whole land until the ninth hour, 45 the sun being obscured; and the veil of the temple was torn in two."
The oddity is that Jesus' crucifixion occurred at the Passover which was a full moon. It is not possible for a solar eclipse to occur at a full moon. Note that Julius Africanus draws the conclusion that Thallus' mentioning of the eclipse was describing the one at Jesus' crucifixion. It may not have been.
Julius Africanus, Extant Writings, XVIII in the Ante Nicene Fathers, ed. by Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1973), vol. VI, p. 130. as cited in Habermas, Gary R., The Historical Jesus: Ancient Evidence for the Life of Christ, (Joplin, MO: College Press Publishing Company) 1996.
Pliny the Younger mentioned Christ. Pliny was governor of Bithynia in Asia Minor. Pliny wrote ten books. The tenth around AD 112.
"They (the Christians) were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before it was light, when they sang in alternate verses a hymn to Christ, as to a god, and bound themselves by a solemn oath, not to any wicked deeds, but never to commit any fraud, theft or adultery, never to falsify their word, nor deny a trust when they should be called upon to deliver it up; after which it was their custom to separate, and then reassemble to partake of food but food of an ordinary and innocent kind."
Pliny, Letters, transl. by William Melmoth, rev. by W.M.L. Hutchinson (Cambridge: Harvard Univ. Press, 1935), vol. II, X:96 as cited in Habermas, Gary R., The Historical Jesus: Ancient Evidence for the Life of Christ, (Joplin, MO: College Press Publishing Company) 1996.
The Talmud
"On the eve of the Passover Yeshu was hanged. For forty days before the execution took place, a herald went forth and cried, "He is going forth to be stoned because he has practiced sorcery and enticed Israel to apostasy. Any one who can say anything in his favor, let him come forward and plead on his behalf." But since nothing was brought forward in his favor he was hanged on the eve of the Passover!"
Gal. 3:13, "Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree."
Luke 22:1-2, "Now the Feast of Unleavened Bread, which is called the Passover, was approaching. 2And the chief priests and the scribes were seeking how they might put Him to death; for they were afraid of the people."
This quotation was taken from the reading in The Babylonian Talmud, transl. by I. Epstein (London: Soncino, 1935), vol. III, Sanhedrin 43a, p. 281 as cited in Habermas, Gary R., The Historical Jesus: Ancient Evidence for the Life of Christ, (Joplin, MO: College Press Publishing Company) 1996.
Lucian (circa 120-after 180) mentions Jesus. Greek writer and rhetorician.
"The Christians, you know, worship a man to this day the distinguished personage who introduced their novel rites, and was crucified on that account. . . . You see, these misguided creatures start with the general conviction that they are immortal for all time, which explains the contempt of death and voluntary self-devotion which are so common among them; and then it was impressed on them by their original lawgiver that they are all brothers, from the moment that they are converted, and deny the gods of Greece, and worship the crucified sage, and live after his laws. All this they take quite on faith, with the result that they despise all worldly goods alike, regarding them merely as common property."
Lucian, The Death of Peregrine, 1113, in The Works of Lucian of Samosata, transl. by H.W. Fowler and F.G. Fowler, 4 vols. (Oxford: Clarendon, 1949), vol. 4, as cited in Habermas, Gary R., The Historical Jesus: Ancient Evidence for the Life of Christ, (Joplin, MO: College Press Publishing Company) 1996.
Though Lucian opposed Christianity, he acknowledges Jesus, that Jesus was crucified, that Christians worship him, and that this was done by faith.
___________________
Sources
McDowell, Josh. Evidence that Demands a Verdict. San Bernardino, CA: Here's Life Publishers, Inc., 1979.
Habermas, Gary R. The Historical Jesus: Ancient Evidence for the Life of Christ. Joplin, MO: College Press Publishing Company, 1996.
Encarta on the Web at encarta.msn.com...
Originally posted by Max_TO
Flavius Josephus (AD 37?-101?, a Jewish historian) mentions John the Baptist and Herod - Antiquities, Book 18, ch. 5, par. 2
Originally posted by Max_TO
Flavius Josephus (AD 37?-101?) mentions Jesus - Antiquities, Book 18, ch. 3, par. 3.
Originally posted by Max_TO
Flavius Josephus (AD 37?-101?) mentions James, the brother of Jesus - Antiquities, Book 20, ch. 9.
Originally posted by Max_TO
Tacitus (A.D. c.55-A.D. c.117, Roman historian) mentions "Christus" who is Jesus - Annals 15.44
Originally posted by Max_TO
Thallus (Circa AD 52, eclipse of the sun) Thallus wrote a history of the Eastern Mediterranean world from the Trojan War to his own time. His writings are only found as citations by others. Julius Africanus, who wrote about AD 221, mentioned Thallus' account of an eclipse of the sun.
Originally posted by Max_TO
Pliny the Younger mentioned Christ. Pliny was governor of Bithynia in Asia Minor. Pliny wrote ten books. The tenth around AD 112.
Originally posted by Max_TO
The Talmud
Originally posted by Max_TO
Now as mentioned , I have not yet read this thread in its entirety , but would I be correct that the book " Miss Quoting Jesus " has come up ?
If not , its a good read and indirectly related to this topic .
Originally posted by Kapyong
But may I point out the topic to you?
It's about people who claimed to have met Jesus personally.
...as soon as I began to open the cover I heard an AUDIBLE voice as if sitting to my left that said-my name, I am Jesus I died for your sins believe in Me and you will never perish- AWESTRUCK