Richard Dawkins backs atheist camp to give children 'godless alternative'

Originally posted by theyreadmymind

Originally posted by alienesque

Originally posted by Amagnon

I think if Dawkins position is that it is highly improbable that god(s) exist - then he is more correctly an agnostic.

nope..hes an atheist..

if you think theres a 50/50 chance of there being a god..then you are agnostic..id love to know your reasons however for thinking that way...

Wrong. This is a Dawkins construction of putting atheism/agnosticism/theism on a sliding scale of belief or probability. That is simply not how it works. You don't just go around changing definitions to make your belief sound the most credible.

Exactly A “lack of belief” definition is a bad definition for many reasons. It is not commonly used. It is not defined that way in any reputable dictionary. It is too broad because most agnostics and babies don’t consider themselves atheists. And it makes no sense for an “-ism” to be abased on a lack of belief.

These atheists are usually motivated to redefine the word “atheist” because they want to enlarge the definition of “atheist” to include as many people as possible, or because they perceive it to be an advantage in debates with theists. Unfortunately, some of these people have used lies and distortions to support their opinions, and some have made extremely ignorant and grossly incorrect statements that may reflect badly on all atheists.

Originally posted by Ex Plures-Unus
It's still a belief referring to a (or lack thereof) deity. So they still are employing the belief sectors of the brain...good going anti-goddies, you're using god!

Hello. You're an iPuD (invicible Pink unicorn Denialist). Using your own logic, you think that those who doesnt believe in something, has THAT as their belief.

You dont believe in the unicorn, and so you are emplying the belief sector of your brain-- good going "anti-unicornie"

Why cant people understand that there is a DIFFERENCE between
1) believing there is no god, and
2) not believing there is a god?

Im an atheist, but i dont say nr 1 on the list. I dont say there is no god. I dont know that. But i also dont say there is no unicorns.

I say nr 2 on the list. I dont believe in any one of the gods etc, but they might exist somewhere. Until we find them, I'll choose to not believe in them. Just like you do to invicible pink unicorns. (Or maybe you even say nr 1 on the list, switching god with unicorn. But how would you know for surtain?)

[edit on 29-6-2009 by Daniem]

Originally posted by DASFEX
This is why we are to assume one is innocent till proven guilty so that we don't end up having people prove they didn't commit the crime they are accused of. How does one prove they couldn't have possibly robbed the bank? How does one prove their couldn't possibly be a God. Many things once thought impossible are now possible. It has always been those making the claims things that are impossible are in fact possible afterall.

Is it POSSIBLE their could be a God? A pragmatic Atheist who knows what it means would say it's possible but not very likely. Which is all one needs for reasonable doubt but not their there is not a God, but that their could be. Proving it is now up to the one suggesting there is.

Is that what you are saying?

I wasn't saying that, but I do agree with it to a point. All I was really saying is that one shouldn't make some non sequiturs and teach children to do the same. (You can prove a negative because [some arbitrary definition of] unicorns can be shown to have elements of hearsay and fantasy, therefore there is no such thing as unicorns.)

The only point I disagree with you about is that God is not very likely. Why do I say that? Because determining whether something is likely or unlikely depends on having all the facts, and we don't have all the facts. Therefore one can not make a determination of how likely God is.

[edit on 29-6-2009 by theyreadmymind]

Holy #.
It really blows my mind.

Let me start out by stating that I do not have a problem with a person having faith in something. Worship all you want. Just keep it out of politics, out of laws and out of my face. Somebody asked in this thread "why should athiests make public their lack of faith?"

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Are you HIGH???

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The morning after pill, stemcell research and many other things that would bennefit society are being squashed by goofy ass religious politicians or politicians pretending to be religious to get a vote.
Talk about closed minded people. The mosted closed minded people I know are "deeply religious"

Religion is being stuffed in our face in ways that affect our lives that religion has buisness being.

evangelicals are my favorite. I was up late one night flipping through the channels and came across some evangelicals at work. "Plant a thousand dollar seed and god will return it to you many times over. But you have to send me $1,000 first."

It was basically about 4+hrs worth of this guy extorting weak minded people into sending them $1,000 "even if it was their last"

Matteo said "Do you wanna know the consequences of those camps on young people?

. They will think life has no meaning and they will be weak in difficult period
. They will become arrogant and harsh when discussing with people who have faith in a creator. They will teach them to avoid people who believe.
. Atheism is an escaping from simple rules of life, so they will think they can do whatever they want, and they will be less respectful"


Especially christians, religious people are very weak in " in difficult periods" Instead of grabbing a difficult situation by the balls and through examining the problem from different angles and finding as many options as possible to work out the problem themselves they turn to god to fix it for them. In my experiance, "christians" make up the majority of people who blame their problems on somebody or something else.

reply to post by Tank2/8

The morning after pill, stemcell research and many other things that would bennefit society are being squashed by goofy ass religious politicians or politicians pretending to be religious to get a vote.

Religious people aren't against stemcell research. We just don't believe that killing a viable fetus is the right thing to do. The same is true with the morning after pill. We believe that by taking that pill, you're taking a life.

evangelicals are my favorite. I was up late one night flipping through the channels and came across some evangelicals at work. "Plant a thousand dollar seed and god will return it to you many times over. But you have to send me $1,000 first."

Televangelists aren't true evangelicals. They don't preach the evangelium which is where evangelicals get their name. They often don't give a rip about what the Bible says and make up stuff to make money. This seed thing is an example of that. The Bible says nada about giving someone 1000 shekels and God will return that to you.

Especially christians, religious people are very weak in " in difficult periods"

Those must be weak Christians that you know. The vast majority of the Christians I know are strong when they face troubles, because they understand that everything will work together for the glory of God, and their benefit.

Instead of grabbing a difficult situation by the balls and through examining the problem from different angles and finding as many options as possible to work out the problem themselves they turn to god to fix it for them.

Again, I don't know these Christians that you know, but those in my circles don't just sit around and wait for God to do stuff. In fact, that's the wrong approach to take. God works, often times, through our actions. In the Proverbs, 16.3, we're told that if we give our plans to the Lord, he will make our paths straight. That implies that there is some planning and execution on our part.

In my experiance, "christians" make up the majority of people who blame their problems on somebody or something else.

If you broadened the circle of Christians that you've experienced, you would discover that many Christians, especially Evangelicals, blame themselves for their problems, due to our sin nature. In any event, it is human nature to blame shift. That is not a market that Christian evangelicals have a monopoly in.

I am athiest. I teach my children manners, kindness and selfreliance.
I let my 12yrold daughter go to a sunday school group in the evening of what ever day they held it on once a week (no it was not sundays) mainly because I want her to form her own optinions in life. (and because she wanted to hang out with some of her friends.)
One evening she came back saying that the sunday school teacher was telling them all bout how athiests are wrong and that they are going to hell. Those of you who have seen southpark, there was one where Ms.Garrison was pissed that he/she had to start teaching evolution in school. When my daughter was telling me how her teaching was bashing athiets and 'telling the kids what athiests believe' It sounded pretty close to this. Ms.Garrison said "In the beginning, we were all fish. Okay? Swimming around in the water. And then one day a couple of fish had a retard baby, and the retard baby was different, so it got to live. So Retard Fish goes on to make more retard babies, and then one day, a retard baby fish crawled out of the ocean with its...mutant fish hands... and it had butt sex with a squirrel or something and made this.
[she points to a prehistoric mammal rodent] Retard frog-sqirrel, and then *that* had a retard baby which was a... monkey-fish-frog... And then this monkey-fish-frog had butt sex with that monkey, and that monkey had a mutant retard baby that screwed another monkey... and that made you!

"So there you go! You're the retarded offspring of five monkeys having butt sex with a fish-squirrel! Congratulations! "

From that point my daughter does not go to sunday school anymore. I do not bad mouth religions to my kids and I am not going to allow someone to bad mouth athiest or anyone else for that matter in an attempt to influence what they believe.

How bout the baptists from kansas. That is a group of people that I would happily put an end to personally





[edit on 29-6-2009 by Tank2/8]

The morning after pill does not take a life. It prevents fertilization from even taking place the same way other birth controls do. By denying people the morning after pill you are greating more of a chance that the person will indeed go through with an abortion

And that is the work religious politicians trying to impose there personal beliefs on the rest of the country. As far as the morning after pill, that is not anti abortion, it is pro telling somebody else how to live their life. If you were anti abortion you should be embracing the morning afterpill. When the morning afterpill is effective FERTILIZATION DOES NOT TAKE PLACE.

reply to post by octotom

Again, I don't know these Christians that you know, but those in my circles don't just sit around and wait for God to do stuff. In fact, that's the wrong approach to take. God works, often times, through our actions. In the Proverbs, 16.3, we're told that if we give our plans to the Lord, he will make our paths straight. That implies that there is some planning and execution on our part.

So when I come to the same good outcome out of a bad situation with out praying or following the bible. I worked through my own actions and just took out the middle man

If you are going to "believe" that the morning after pill is taking a life instead of looking at the facts about how the medication works and what takes place when it is effective THATS FINE, DONT TAKE THE PILL!!! BUT KEEP YOUR "BELIEVES" IN YOUR HOUSE OR CHURCH WHERE THEY BELONG!!!!

[edit on 29-6-2009 by Tank2/8]

[edit on 29-6-2009 by Tank2/8]

Originally posted by Tank2/8
The morning after pill does not take a life. It prevents fertilization from even taking place the same way other birth controls do. By denying people the morning after pill you are greating more of a chance that the person will indeed go through with an abortion

How long do you think sperm stay alive in the womb guy? Christians you understand believe life starts at the moment of conception. Having said that, why anyone would take a morning after pill BEFORE they have sex is NOT why they call it the morning AFTER. It kills what might be conceived from the night before. If she wasn't fertile, she wouldn't NEED a morning after pill.

The morning after pill is what they give to rape victims because they don't want to carry the rapists child.

Originally posted by Tank2/8
If you are going to "believe" that the morning after pill is taking a life instead of looking at the facts about how the medication works and what takes place when it is effective THATS FINE, DONT TAKE THE PILL!!! BUT KEEP YOUR "BELIEVES" IN YOUR HOUSE OR CHURCH WHERE THEY BELONG!!!!

[edit on 29-6-2009 by Tank2/8]

[edit on 29-6-2009 by Tank2/8]

Are you suggesting censorship? You do realize this country has a law protecting religious expression do you not? I rarely ever have the problems with religious people you claim you are having. Why do you allow them to shove things down your throat like Bibles? How is it you watched a televangelist for FOUR hours asking for money the whole time?

In my experiance, "christians" make up the majority of people who blame their problems on somebody or something else.

Blaming ones problems on others is something most PEOPLE DO Example: YOU!

Here YOU are blaming everything from politics to all the problems in America on Christians.

Also, forgive me for suggesting that I find it hard to believe ANYONE even the most zealous Christian could sit through something like that for four hours much less someone who has as many issues with religious people in general as you do.



[edit on 29-6-2009 by DASFEX]

Originally posted by DASFEX

Originally posted by Tank2/8
The morning after pill does not take a life. It prevents fertilization from even taking place the same way other birth controls do. By denying people the morning after pill you are greating more of a chance that the person will indeed go through with an abortion

How long do you think sperm stay alive in the womb guy? Christians you understand believe life starts at the moment of conception. Having said that, why anyone would take a morning after pill BEFORE they have sex is NOT why they call it the morning AFTER. It kills what might be conceived from the night before. If she wasn't fertile, she wouldn't NEED a morning after pill.

The morning after pill is what they give to rape victims because they don't want to carry the rapists child.

I am not even going to entertain that. Do some research on it then come back with an argument

[edit on 29-6-2009 by Tank2/8]

reply to post by DASFEX



Ok dasfex, I am not talking about oppressing religious rights or expression PERIOD religious expression and religious politicians swinging one way or another on issues that affect everybody BASED on there own religious believes that others do not share is WRONG. Me saying that religion should be kept in the church or house or where ever you chose to practice it is not oppressing you and your faith one bit.

Click here for more information.

Im waiting for the "how to be a good person" camp. To argue whether or not there is a god is just a waste of time. We will never agree and it only causes conflict and separates people. But we do know how to be a good person. (at least i like to think that we know) Most religions seem to agree on the "golden rule" so why not focus on that. Its real and nobody can argue whether or not it exists.

Just a few months ago a man attempted to rob a convenience store and the store clerk pulled a gun on him and instead of blowing his brains, out asked him why he was doing this...The man said he had no money or food for his family. The clerk gave the would be robber money, and some food then let him go...

Kindness, compassion... these are without a doubt real and cannot be argued, so why not focus on that? Is it too easy? Do we need some kind of drama in our lives to feel complete?

I am new to the website and so far im in love with it. I chose this as my first post because the topic of religion is always on my mind. I was raised a christian and have always felt something was missing, like i didn't belong. But the idea of there being no creator seems wrong to me too. (could be the christian brainwashing =P ) I know that a day will come where all my questions will be answered, but until then i try with all my might to focus on being the best person, husband, father, that i can be.

Originally posted by DASFEX

Originally posted by Tank2/8
The morning after pill does not take a life. It prevents fertilization from even taking place the same way other birth controls do. By denying people the morning after pill you are greating more of a chance that the person will indeed go through with an abortion

How long do you think sperm stay alive in the womb guy? Christians you understand believe life starts at the moment of conception. Having said that, why anyone would take a morning after pill BEFORE they have sex is NOT why they call it the morning AFTER. It kills what might be conceived from the night before. If she wasn't fertile, she wouldn't NEED a morning after pill.

The morning after pill is what they give to rape victims because they don't want to carry the rapists child.

On Aug. 24, 2006, the U.S. Food and Drug Administration approved a form of emergency contraception to be sold over the counter to women ages 18 and older. The generic name for this contraceptive is levonorgestrel. It's also known by the brand name Plan B.

The female reproductive system is extremely complex and the menstrual cycle involves several different hormones. Here's a simplified version of how it works:

Shortly after a woman finishes her period, her pituitary gland begins the monthly cycle by secreting FSH, or follicle stimulating hormone. This hormone tells the ovaries that it is time to prepare a follicle for ovulation.
Image courtesy Georgia Reproductive Specialists
A fertilized egg

One follicle develops and begins emitting the hormone estrogen. Estrogen causes the uterine lining to thicken so that it will be ready to accept a fertilized egg.
Just before ovulation, the ovaries also secrete progesterone and continue secreting it for about two weeks.
The hypothalamus and pituitary gland sense the level of estrogen rising in the blood. When the level is high enough, the pituitary gland releases luteinizing hormone (LH). This hormone tells the follicle to release the egg into the fallopian tube. Sperm can fertilize this newly released egg during a 24-hour window.
If sperm fertilizes the egg during that 24-hour window, and if conditions are right, the fertilized egg implants itself into the thickened uterine lining and the woman is pregnant. If the egg goes unfertilized or if something prevents implantation, the woman doesn't get pregnant and she begins menstruating about two weeks after ovulation. Then the cycle repeats.
Although there is only a 24-hour window during which an egg can be fertilized, sperm can live for three to five days inside a woman's body. So if a woman has unprotected sex three days prior to ovulation, she has a very good chance of getting pregnant. (See How Sex Works for more information.)

You can see from this description that a drug could lower the risk of pregnancy in one of three ways:

It could kill all of the sperm after ejaculation.
It could prevent the fertilized egg from implanting in the uterus.
It could either prevent or delay the release of the egg. Levonorgestrel takes this third path.
What Plan B Isn't

Levonorgestrel is an emergency, or backup, contraceptive. It can help reduce the chance of pregnancy if the woman isn't already pregnant. Levonorgestrel has no effect on the mother or the fetus if the woman is already pregnant. RU-486, or mifepristone, is a completely different drug that performs a chemical abortion early in a pregnancy.­

­ When you purchase Plan B, you get two pills. Each pill contains 0.75 milligrams of levonorgestrel. You take the first pill as soon as possible after unprotected sex, and you take the second pill 12 hours later.

Although scientists aren't completely sure how it works, they believe that levonorgestrel prevents pregnancy either by stopping the ovulation process or by disrupting the ability of sperm and egg to meet in the fallopian tubes. Some speculate that the drug may prevent the fertilized egg from implanting as well, perhaps by making the uterine lining less receptive to the egg.

Levonorgestrel does this by disrupting the natural hormonal cycle. It contains a synthetic form of progesterone (regular birth-control pills contain it in lower doses). The high doses of progesterone in Plan B are disruptive enough to prevent fertilization or implantation.

If ovulation has already occurred, levonorgestrel will be less effective. It will be most effective if it's taken before ovulation. This is why it's important to take Plan B as soon as possible after unprotected sex. Once a fertilized egg implants, Plan B will have no effect. This explains why doctors advise women to take Plan B no later than 72 hours after unprotected sex -- the chances of it working are very low at that point.

Because of all these variables, Plan B is not 100 percent effective. But in clinical trials, it has been found to be 89 percent effective.



[edit on 29-6-2009 by Tank2/8]

Originally posted by DASFEX

Originally posted by Tank2/8
The morning after pill does not take a life. It prevents fertilization from even taking place the same way other birth controls do. By denying people the morning after pill you are greating more of a chance that the person will indeed go through with an abortion

How long do you think sperm stay alive in the womb guy? Christians you understand believe life starts at the moment of conception. Having said that, why anyone would take a morning after pill BEFORE they have sex is NOT why they call it the morning AFTER. It kills what might be conceived from the night before. If she wasn't fertile, she wouldn't NEED a morning after pill.

The morning after pill is what they give to rape victims because they don't want to carry the rapists child.

Sperm can live 3-5days inside the womb guy!

[edit on 29-6-2009 by Tank2/8]

Originally posted by Otsego
Im waiting for the "how to be a good person" camp. To argue whether or not there is a god is just a waste of time. We will never agree and it only causes conflict and separates people. But we do know how to be a good person. (at least i like to think that we know) Most religions seem to agree on the "golden rule" so why not focus on that. Its real and nobody can argue whether or not it exists.

Just a few months ago a man attempted to rob a convenience store and the store clerk pulled a gun on him and instead of blowing his brains, out asked him why he was doing this...The man said he had no money or food for his family. The clerk gave the would be robber money, and some food then let him go...

Kindness, compassion... these are without a doubt real and cannot be argued, so why not focus on that? Is it too easy? Do we need some kind of drama in our lives to feel complete?

I am new to the website and so far im in love with it. I chose this as my first post because the topic of religion is always on my mind. I was raised a christian and have always felt something was missing, like i didn't belong. But the idea of there being no creator seems wrong to me too. (could be the christian brainwashing =P ) I know that a day will come where all my questions will be answered, but until then i try with all my might to focus on being the best person, husband, father, that i can be.

Welcome to ATS! Great first post. I'm happy to give you your first star and would be happy to join you in your "be a good person" camp!

Originally posted by Tank2/8



Although scientists aren't completely sure how it works, they believe that levonorgestrel prevents pregnancy either by stopping the ovulation process or by disrupting the ability of sperm and egg to meet in the fallopian tubes. Some speculate that the drug may prevent the fertilized egg from implanting as well, perhaps by making the uterine lining less receptive to the egg.

Levonorgestrel does this by disrupting the natural hormonal cycle. It contains a synthetic form of progesterone (regular birth-control pills contain it in lower doses). The high doses of progesterone in Plan B are disruptive enough to prevent fertilization or implantation.



[edit on 29-6-2009 by Tank2/8]

And like I said, BOTH of those deal with the situation AFTER conception. "ContraCeption" is used disable ConCeption but if a woman is not taking any contraceptives, it is likely she may get pregnant and planB is after conception or the likely hood that she HAS conceived it will terminate the fertilized egg. You claimed this was a Contraception, Science has already proven life begins at conception.

Oh and by the way, if you are going to steal other peoples work, at least use the external quotes and the link to the article you got here

health.howstuffworks.com...