Richard Dawkins backs atheist camp to give children 'godless alternative', page 2

posted on Jun, 28 2009 @ 04:53 PM

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reply to post by Haydn_17

I really do not understand atheism, its a belief system that does not like belief systems? Can't we just have a camp for kids that lets them believe what they want, not "This camp is for christians" or "This camp is for atheists". Calling yourself an atheist is just as bad as calling yourself a christian in my opinion. Believing that there is no god is equally stupid as believing that there is; we don't know, leave it at that.

NatureBoy

posted on Jun, 28 2009 @ 04:57 PM

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reply to post by theyreadmymind

i think thats pretty much the point, dawkins loves the classic argument 'you cant disprove god' and its rebuttle 'you cant disprive a pink unicorn / china tea pot in space'

i'm sure the kids critical reasoning skills will only be advanced by anything a great mind like Dawkins is involved in.

moocowman

posted on Jun, 28 2009 @ 05:01 PM

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reply to post by Matteo

Religion is not about magic..

Magic like spitting on a blind man to make him see again ? talking snakes ?

Man claims squatters rights in belly of big fish ?

Prophet concerned with environment, gets lift on flying horse to heaven?

Dead people leave their graves and walk into town ?

Simon the magician loses magician of the year trophy ?

C'mon get real

NatureBoy

posted on Jun, 28 2009 @ 05:13 PM

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reply to post by seanizle

actually many people would argue that the concept of a god is impossible, contradictory and self-defeating while some would go as far as to say that to decided to ignore all rational counter points and believe in something totally unsubstansiated on the whim of some bronzeage crazys is not a valid viewpoint at all on bearing on the insane.

However this world was once run by these crazy folk and if they're let loose then the crusades, inquesition and all the horrors of the catholic empire will once again befall us - remember that a few hundred short years ago any viewpoint other than the orthodox christian viewpoint was punishable by death and torture. It's important for people that don't believe we can do whatever we like in this life just to get some magic reward afterwards make their voices hears, after all was it the Church that stopped slavers? no, the bible includes tips on keeping slaves, was it the Church that forwarded womens lib? no the opposed it with all their might. Was it the church that brought us the understanding and technology which allows us to communicate now? no they battled against it every step of the way.

Many, many people in this world now understand enough of the world, philosophy, history, argumentation and effective reasoning to see through the lies of the church, through the tricks and cons of the bible right through the vaporous nonsense which is the idea of a 'protecting father' who needs us to work really hard to make sure his special envoy on earth get the best cut of meat every time. The entire idea of a single all powerful religion stems from one family and their cunning tale which conned the tribe into presenting them with a special bit of every animal killed and always the best ones ready at the slightest whim, it's possible the best sham ever pulled by a group of travelers after an easy feed but thats all it is, a simple ploy to control people into paying for the clergy to take it easy - i bet the pope beatified whoever invented the 'tithe'

moocowman

posted on Jun, 28 2009 @ 05:17 PM

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reply to post by octotom

Why is this a big deal?

It's a wind up to get a response and to encourage people to think about what they believe and why the believe it.

You went to camp and had bible studies at an age that it was highly probably you would accept what you were "Told" as truth.

The fact remains that you still do, you may question some things but when it comes down to the nitty gritty, your brain accepted the adult truth with very little questioning.

You believe what you do because, what you were told when you were young was truth because it was coming from an adult.

Certain religious people will be horrified to learn of an atheist camp, why ? Because they know that no matter what BS you tell a child they will accept it as truth even if it doesn't make sense.

moocowman

posted on Jun, 28 2009 @ 05:19 PM

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reply to post by seanizle

I really do not understand atheism, its a belief system that does not like belief systems?

How on earth is my having no belief in unicorns a belief ?

Don't be silly young man

theyreadmymind

posted on Jun, 28 2009 @ 05:34 PM

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Originally posted by NatureBoy
reply to post by theyreadmymind

i think thats pretty much the point, dawkins loves the classic argument 'you cant disprove god' and its rebuttle 'you cant disprive a pink unicorn / china tea pot in space'

i'm sure the kids critical reasoning skills will only be advanced by anything a great mind like Dawkins is involved in.

If the goal is to teach children "You can't disprove a unicorn" then great, that's what they should be learning. But then why are they giving prizes for something nobody can succeed in? Also, I read in the article that Dawkins is not involved, but in name only and monetary contributions.

I don't think it's very far-fetched to believe that at some time a creature existed with a horn that was called a 'unicorn'. It's referred to several times in the bible. I think this is a thinly veiled attempt to make kids question the bible by first rejecting the idea of unicorns, which in itself is a pretty shabby argument for rejecting the bible. But that is just a suspicion.

Nevertheless, my argument is not about unicorns, atheism, or theism, but teaching and reinforcing poor critical thinking skills in children is what I'm against.

octotom

posted on Jun, 28 2009 @ 05:36 PM

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reply to post by moocowman

No, I was 17 when I became Christian, not a child. I didn't blindly accept it either. It was quite a struggle. That's a different story though.

If the "problem" is that kids don't hear an alternative view to Christian beliefs, why isn't the dominance of evolutionary theory in the schools enough? I mean, it's not like kids aren't exposed to the atheistic thinking at all. [Many students, by the way, just accept what their teachers say as truth, without questioning it, because parents more or less teach their kids that "the teacher is always right".] This charade doesn't need to be played. I think that the evolutionists are afraid that kids will accept evolution during the school year but then go to church camp and reject their cherished teaching for a religious view. That's why they're starting "atheist camp".

It's funny that you say that kids just accept what the preacher would say at Bible Camp. I'm assuming that at "Atheist Camp", the kids will be taught evolutionary things. Will the kid not just accept that as true [like kids do with their teachers at school]?

mr-lizard

posted on Jun, 28 2009 @ 05:37 PM

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Originally posted by Matteo
I'm sorry to say this, but not really so much, shame on those who those who organize those camps, and not because they should be ashamed not to have faith but because they will teach them ho to enclose their minds...

[edit on 28-6-2009 by Matteo]

It was Catholicism that drew me to atheism. I like to think i'm fairly open minded.

Peace

NatureBoy

posted on Jun, 28 2009 @ 06:06 PM

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reply to post by theyreadmymind

haha of course we know horse like animals with horns exist, they found some in africa not so long ago - the article i read said that dawkins was signing the note and had paid a large sum to help it get started, I'm sure he looked into it fully before getting involved.

It also stated it was a pink unicorn, i can't remember who coined the phrase 'pink unicorn' but basically its the same as was it bertrand russell's China Teapot hanging in space equidistant between earth and mars. I presume that the task of disproving the pink unicorn is a jest to give the attendees an idea of the light hearted but highly educational and hands on interesting the event is going to be.

Of course i'm sure it's every but as insidious as those sunday afternoon 'coffee evenings' which mention the free biscits, selection of home baked cakes but somehow forget to mention the constant sermoniseing about jesus!

theyreadmymind

posted on Jun, 28 2009 @ 06:32 PM

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reply to post by NatureBoy

I don't really know what to say, because these are all presumptions you've made with no evidence. (Except perhaps for the horned creatures in Africa.) But if the original article is accurate, I stand behind what I said, they're misleading these youngsters. I think maybe I'll go out and start my agnosticism camp. The world seems to need some balance right about now.

aorAki

posted on Jun, 28 2009 @ 06:44 PM

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Originally posted by Matteo

Mind should be very open, don't let your mind to be shut down by atheism...Really

That this world has a creator is the most obvious thing in the universe

Mmmmhmmm

I guess that first quote can apply to religion as well?

Just trying to be open-minded.

Originally posted by Matteo Why atheists should publicize and make public their loss of faith ( I am sure all of the atheists are people who lost faith, no one never had faith in such a thing like a creator )?
Atheists want to fight against the faith of religions because they actually recognize there is something more, a creator...And they want to fight this thing like adolescents want to fight against rules...

Golly, you obviously associate with different atheists than I do if this is your perception of us.

Originally posted by Matteo] you wanna know the consequences of those camps on young people?

. They will think life has no meaning and they will be weak in difficult period.

Help me, I'm weak. Because I do not believe in god, life instantly becomes meaningless. Oh the shame.

Originally posted by Matteo] They will become arrogant and harsh when discussing with people who have faith in a creator. They will teach them to avoid people who believe.

I have great relationships with believers, including family members. I am not chastised for my choice, rather we support each other and aren't afraid to discuss our thoughts with each other.

Originally posted by Matteo Atheism is an escaping from simple rules of life, so they will think they can do whatever they want, and they will be less respectful

Oh, and here I was thinking that I was trying really hard to be a model citizen, helping people with their learning, holding doors open, obeying most rules/laws and generally trying to be a productive, communicative and helpful Homo sapiens sapiens.

Originally posted by Matteo].Atheist say" Creator is in the Bible, so it doesn't exist "

You do know the bible is a story book, written by humans?

Originally posted by Matteo] would like to add that faith should be very personal and should bring someone to think deeply about things.

Having faith doesn't mean that it is the exclusive domain of deep thought (no, really). I find that Atheism allows me to approach many obstacles without preconceived notions.

Originally posted by Matteo] " The Good spreads if it is helped to...Many many people ( Me included in many things ) don't do anything to bring something good

The good won't spread if there are obstacles in its place, such as religious bigotry and bias.

The organiser, Samantha Stein, said the camp was not only for the offspring of atheists or "irreligious" parents. "It is a secular alternative open to children of parents of all faiths and none," she said.

"It is not about changing what they think, but the way that they think. There is very little that attacks religion; we are not a rival to religious camps."........Camp Quest UK's website says its counsellors and volunteers will lead activities teaching eight to 17-year-olds "about science, free thought and humanist principles. Activities cover critical thinking, science, history, human rights and ethics".

www.guardian.co.uk... awkins

Oh, sounds scary. Imagine all these critical thinkers getting loose!

[edit on 28-6-2009 by aorAki]

aorAki

posted on Jun, 28 2009 @ 06:56 PM
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Originally posted by Matteo

I am sure Atheists are rebels, but there is nothing to rebel against...

Eh?

Originally posted by Matteo

To be atheist is not actually bad or even concerning...It's something everyone of us goes through...Only you can decide to come back on your beliefs

So now you're saying that Atheism is a step towards gaining faith?

Originally posted by Matteo
We all are clocks

|I'm sorry, but I'm sure I can hear a cuckoo clock somewhere

Originally posted by Matteo Delusion should be read as Santa Delusion...Santa is a bad thing because it's a old tale who should not be used to tell children anymore...

Much like god I reckon.

Originally posted by Matteo is not about getting something, should be about the good sense of giving something to others...
[edit on 28-6-2009 by Matteo]

Doesn't it coincide with the Solstice and isn't it appropriated from earlier 'cult's/religions?

Originally posted by Matteo
My last opinion about this: just think about

Scientists are the people who have the greatest chance to realize the existance of a Creator...Order is something which is created, ad Order is in everything...But they don't seem to get it...

Now, I wonder why that is?

Originally posted by Matteo ...

I love the way Mother Teresa lived, she was divine...Every one should learn from her.

No, she was a corrupt Catholic.

she has also faced a diverse range of criticism. These include objections by various individuals and groups, including Christopher Hitchens, Michael Parenti, Aroup Chatterjee, Vishva Hindu Parishad, against the proselytizing focus of her work including a strong stance against abortion, a belief in the spiritual goodness of poverty and alleged baptisms of the dying. Several medical journals also criticised the standard of medical care in her hospices and concerns were raised about the opaque nature in which donated money was spent

en.wikipedia.org...

When someone asked Teresa how people without money or power can make the world a better place, she replied, “They should smile more,” a response that charmed some listeners. During a press conference in Washington DC, when asked “Do you teach the poor to endure their lot?” she said “I think it is very beautiful for the poor to accept their lot, to share it with the passion of Christ. I think the world is being much helped by the suffering of the poor people.”[8]

www.vegsource.com...

You can keep all your 'saints'. I would rather associate with people who aren't acting 'on a promise'.

[edit on 28-6-2009 by aorAki]

Amagnon

posted on Jun, 28 2009 @ 10:47 PM
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Originally posted by moocowman
reply to post by seanizle

I really do not understand atheism, its a belief system that does not like belief systems?

How on earth is my having no belief in unicorns a belief ?

Don't be silly young man

Actually I am agnostic - and atheists go further than not believing - they deny the possibility of a god.

While I think there is basically zero chance that any of the organized religions are right and have summed up what the supreme being is - and what his recipe for eternal life is - I do not rule out the possibility that there is some kind of giant geek up there in god-knows-where-land.

I really doubt it - but hey - I also think a tea pot flying in space, and pink unicorns are possible too! About as likely as god, and each other.

alienesque

posted on Jun, 29 2009 @ 02:08 AM
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Originally posted by Matteo
I'm sorry to say this, but not really so much, shame on those who those who organize those camps, and not because they should be ashamed not to have faith but because they will teach them ho to enclose their minds...

Mind should be very open, don't let your mind to be shut down by atheism...Really

That this world has a creator is the most obvious thing in the universe

Why atheists should publicize and make public their loss of faith ( I am sure all of the atheists are people who lost faith, no one never had faith in such a thing like a creator )?
Atheists want to fight against the faith of religions because they actually recognize there is something more, a creator...And they want to fight this thing like adolescents want to fight against rules...

Do you wanna know the consequences of those camps on young people?

. They will think life has no meaning and they will be weak in difficult period
. They will become arrogant and harsh when discussing with people who have faith in a creator. They will teach them to avoid people who believe.
. Atheism is an escaping from simple rules of life, so they will think they can do whatever they want, and they will be less respectful

Do you want to know a thing ? It's like some very conservative religious people who could say " Aliens are not present in the Bible, than they don't exist " right in front of an alien...Atheist say" Creator is in the Bible, so it doesn't exist "

Don't you notice?

I would like to add that faith should be very personal and should bring someone to think deeply about things.

Non believers ( That's what I noticed ) are always telling people " African children are dying in thousands, so the creator should not exist "
They tell people " What God did for your life? "
They should think " What I have done to bring something good to African people ? " The Good spreads if it is helped to...Many many people ( Me included in many things ) don't do anything to bring something good

[edit on 28-6-2009 by Matteo]

[edit on 28-6-2009 by Matteo]

minds should be open?..thats the whole point of these camps..opening kids minds to the possibility that there is no god..

do you seriously think that at religious camps they teach the kids that there very well may not be a god?

i doubt it...

alienesque

posted on Jun, 29 2009 @ 02:13 AM
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Originally posted by seanizle
reply to post by Haydn_17

I really do not understand atheism, its a belief system that does not like belief systems? Can't we just have a camp for kids that lets them believe what they want, not "This camp is for christians" or "This camp is for atheists". Calling yourself an atheist is just as bad as calling yourself a christian in my opinion. Believing that there is no god is equally stupid as believing that there is; we don't know, leave it at that.

we also dont know whether or not there is the lochness monster or the yeti..should we teach kids that they should question these things and just accept they may or may not exist..and leave it at that?..

whats fire..ive no idea...leave it at that..whats rain..no idea..leave it at that..why do birds fly..no idea...why bother looking to see why...

that sort of thinking is just plain lazy and will not move our species along..thankfully our common past is full of people who seeked the truth.

Kaytagg

posted on Jun, 29 2009 @ 02:14 AM
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Originally posted by Haydn_17
www.guardian.co.uk...

An atheist summer camp for children is to be held in the UK for the first time this year, offering a "godless alternative" to similar religious events under canvas.

Freakin awesome. I wish I had an atheist summer camp to go to when I was younger.

OzWeatherman

posted on Jun, 29 2009 @ 02:15 AM
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Originally posted by seanizle
reply to post by Haydn_17

I really do not understand atheism, its a belief system that does not like belief systems?

Let me guess.... you're religious

You have the definition of atheism wrong. Dont assume we all dislike other beliefs, because that is not fact. Atheism is a term simply given to those who do not follow an organised religion. The majority of us do not hate religion, we just dont agree with it, thus, we dont worship a god.

Flighty

posted on Jun, 29 2009 @ 03:16 AM
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I think children would find this just as boring as a christian camp.
Why talk about God at all? If it's called a godless camp....why the obsession of talking about him/her then?

This would be like joining a kiddie club who don't like Britney Spears to sprat on Britney for a whole week. Sounds childish to me.

Kids don't like Politics in case you haven't noticed. Whatever makes them think that religious politics is going to be any different?

ahnggk

posted on Jun, 29 2009 @ 03:21 AM
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I'm a Christian and I would like to offer my view on it.

-First, I never attended any Christian summer camp when I was young. I simply felt that I'm different and I would want something that is more open to diversity.

-I also didn't liked the Atheist summer camp concept. Like I said, I wanted diversity than anything else. I like the Critical Thinking part though.

-But I've been in camps before, with friends that we organized ourselves. We did it in the spirit of friendship, exploration and expansion of knowledge. We have a Catholic, an Atheist, and two Christians. It didn't matter!