Originally posted by verylowfrequency
There are plenty of Wealthy people that are good people and there are plenty of poor people who are greedy.

We have a pretty good system in the U.S. and most of the Western world, as you can grow up in a poor or working class family and become wealthy if you work hard enough or get lucky.

I think the people most likely to succeed in America and perhaps others parts of the world will do so using deceit. You must be very lucky and/or talented, violent or corrupt to succeed. It has always been so.

I just watched a documentary about Nickla Tesla and Thomas Edison. Edison hired Tesla, stole Teslas ideas and then attempted to keep Tesla from succeeding elsewhere after they parted ways.

Henry Ford started out believing that he should pay his workers well enough that they could buy his own product. Later in his career Ford attempted to squash his workers and keep them in thier place.

Those who already clawed thier way to the top use deceit to keep people from changing thier place in society. You must be very well connected to succeed.

See the difference.

Class mobility has always been an issue.

Hinduism kept people in thier place using the caste system.

Communism kept people in thier place using fear and intimidation.

Fuedalism kept people in thier place by force.

THey lie, cheat and steal to get power and then they lie, cheat and steal to maintain power.


[edit on 28-6-2009 by In nothing we trust]

Originally posted by In nothing we trust

Originally posted by verylowfrequency
There are plenty of Wealthy people that are good people and there are plenty of poor people who are greedy.

We have a pretty good system in the U.S. and most of the Western world, as you can grow up in a poor or working class family and become wealthy if you work hard enough or get lucky.

I think the people most likely to succeed in America and perhaps others parts of the world will do so using deceit. You must be very lucky and/or talented to succeed. It has always been so. I just watched a documentary about Nickla Tesla and Thomas Edison. Edison stole Teslas ideas and then attempted to keep Tesla from succeeding elsewhere.

Those who already clawed thier way to the top use deceit to keep people from changing thier place in society. You must be very well connected to succeed.

See the difference.

Class mobility has always been an issue.

Hinduism kept people in thier place using the caste system.

Communism kept people in thier place using fear and intimidation.

Fuedalism kept people in thier place by force.

[edit on 28-6-2009 by In nothing we trust]

Right, so am I wrong in blaming the governement whom controls the money and where it goes? Almost all those things you mentioned, except Hinduism, are government factions; and really Hinduism became the governing authority there, so am I wrong?

Originally posted by Jakes51
Money is not the cause of deceit and treachery. Deep down in one's inner core is where deceit lives. The deceit and treachery is what one does with the money. Deceit can arise from one using their monetary gains to wage war, murder, soliciting prostitutes, scam people (pyramid & ponzi schemes), purchase drugs and alcohol in excess, and there are many other results of human depravity from money.

Money can be used to do a lot of good such as feeding the hungry, building a water purification plant in the 3rd world, purchasing a education for a person not of the means of doing it for themselves and others . . . My whole outlook on money is this; how much does one really need to survive? In my opinion, all one really needs is sustenance, a roof for themself and their family, and clothes on their backs. So we use money as another excuse for mistreatment of others, when it isn't the money at all; it is the person.

It is easy to point at people who are liers, fornicators, murderers, idolaters and sorcerers who have money and say they are bad people.

I think the trully disingenuous attempt to purchase good will by using thier money for some hopeless feel good cause and then claim to be good people.

[edit on 28-6-2009 by In nothing we trust]

"The thing about money, Bud...it makes you do things ya don't wanna do."
-Wall Street

Well. I've been poor, richer than most Americans, and everywhere in between. All I can say is that at every level there is fear, lust, greed, and evil swarming around the topic of money. I believe most of the poor spend more time agonizing about money in a sense...first of all you've got to work like hell to get the tiniest scrap of it, there is never enough, day-to-day you worry about things the richer people take for granted. Psychologically, poor Americans hate themselves, as Kurt Vonnegut so eloquently described in Mother Night:

"America is the wealthiest nation on Earth, but its people are mainly poor, and poor Americans are urged to hate themselves. To quote the American humorist Kin Hubbard, 'It ain't no disgrace to be poor, but it might as well be.' It is in fact a crime for an American to be poor, even though America is a nation of poor. Every other nation has folk traditions of men who were poor but extremely wise and virtuous, and thereforre more estimable than anyone with power and gold. No such tales are told by the American poor. They mock themselves and glorify their betters...

"...Americans, like human beings everywhere, believe many things that are obviously untrue. Their most destructive untruth is that it is very easy for an American to make money. They will not acknowledge how in fact hard money is to come by, and, therefore, those who have no money blame and blame and blame themselves. This inward blame has been a treasure for the rich and powerful, who have had to do less for their poor, publicly and privately, than any other ruling class since, say, Napoleonic times. Many novelties have come from America. The most startling of these, a thing without precedent, is a mass of undignified poor. They do not love one another because they do not love themselves."

Once you move up the ladder your immediate needs are satitiated and that nagging psychological self-hate abates in most people...but its still there like an evil jack-in-the-box ready to pop out. Even many of the very richest are insecure, living on the edge, gambling and one false move away from losing everything...and they know it. The more "stable rich" become smug and self-secure, or lost in their own worlds, perhaps surrounded by fawners and hangers-on...its almost like a form of senility. they may feel more secure yet become divorced from reality. And often the money tears families apart, pits brother against brother and father against son. Substance abuse is another ugly pitfall of the very wealthy...you can go on the "party circuit" and if you can afford it you can lose your body, mind and soul all at once.

Bottom line: Money is ugly and causes pain at all levels. Period.



[edit on 6/28/09 by silent thunder]

Originally posted by silent thunder
"The thing about money, Bud...it makes you do things ya don't wanna do."
-Wall Street

Well. I've been poor, richer than most Americans, and everywhere in between. All I can say is that at every level there is fear, lust, greed, and evil swarming around the topic of money. I believe most of the poor spend more time agonizing about money in a sense...first of all you've got to work like hell to get the tiniest scrap of it, there is never enough, day-to-day you worry about things the richer people take for granted. Psychologically, poor Americans hate themselves, as Kurt Vonnegut so eloquently described in Mother Night:

"America is the wealthiest nation on Earth, but its people are mainly poor, and poor Americans are urged to hate themselves. To quote the American humorist Kin Hubbard, 'It ain't no disgrace to be poor, but it might as well be.' It is in fact a crime for an American to be poor, even though America is a nation of poor. Every other nation has folk traditions of men who were poor but extremely wise and virtuous, and thereforre more estimable than anyone with power and gold. No such tales are told by the American poor. They mock themselves and glorify their betters...

"...Americans, like human beings everywhere, believe many things that are obviously untrue. Their most destructive untruth is that it is very easy for an American to make money. They will not acknowledge how in fact hard money is to come by, and, therefore, those who have no money blame and blame and blame themselves. This inward blame has been a treasure for the rich and powerful, who have had to do less for their poor, publicly and privately, than any other ruling class since, say, Napoleonic times. Many novelties have come from America. The most startling of these, a thing without precedent, is a mass of undignified poor. They do not love one another because they do not love themselves."

Once you move up the ladder your immediate needs are satitiated and that nagging psychological self-hate abates in most people...but its still there like an evil jack-in-the-box ready to pop out. Even many of the very richest are insecure, living on the edge, gambling and one false move away from losing everything...and they know it. The more "stable rich" become smug and self-secure, or lost in their own worlds, perhaps surrounded by fawners and hangers-on...its almost like a form of senility. they may feel more secure yet become divorced from reality. And often the money tears families apart, pits brother against brother and father against son. Substance abuse is another ugly pitfall of the very wealthy...you can go on the "party circuit" and if you can afford it you can lose your body, mind and soul all at once.

Bottom line: Money is ugly and causes pain at all levels. Period.

Silent Thunder that is an excellent post.

America is trully an insecure hateful society. I don't think it was supposed to be this way, but how would I know it's the only reality that me and my family have ever known.

It's like were all trapped on an out of control carnival ride gone wrong and no one knows how to stop it.

[edit on 28-6-2009 by In nothing we trust]

If given the chance (EVERYONE), would you tell the smallest lie in order to gain 5000 dollars?

Lets say you work at a gas station, and was given the chance to earn 5000 dollars if you charge an extra penny on all sales during the day (even though this wouldn't happen, follow me).

You have ZERO chances at getting caught.

The way "I" would look at it are like this.

1. A penny is nothing.
2. I am not going to get caught.
3. I am going to be making 5000 dollars.

The cons are this.

1. I am stealing money.
2. It is deceitful and "bad".
3.It is tactics like this that I would normally complain about, just on a higher level.

My point? OF COURSE.

The benefits of having money outweigh the personal satisfaction of telling the truth 100% of the time - that MANY people would go through with even the smallest of crimes to make a fortune.

Of course, I am speaking only for myself and my own views of other people.

I think the biggest challenge in life is knowing when to dodge, hit, and run.

Hitting all the time wears you out and will make you collapse.
Dodging all the time gets you nowhere.
Running also gets you nowhere.

But, a combination of all 3 will get you somewhere, and the better combo for whatever situation, the farther you will get (money wise).

The problem is, people are GIVEN these chances that I listed above. Maybe not literally, but metaphorically speaking. I would (an am currently) love to a life without "greed".

But if such an opportunity came up as the one I listed - my eyes will turn and my hands will continue.

The fact is, there are not many nice people in the world, and the majority are "mean". While I do not prefer being the "mean" one, on some subjects, you must treat everyone that way.

To much lenience and you fall, and to much greed and you end up stealing from yourself.

Originally posted by redoubt

"America is a very deceitful place. It seems as if everything is a lie and everyone is a lier. Even those who have no money are deceitful, they are just not capable of hiding thier deceit, because they tend to be stupider."

Your own prejudices soil what might otherwise be a good bit of observation. In fact, greed and dishonesty infect every corner of humanity.

Our history... one that predates America by thousands of years, show that the desire to gain material wealth breeds dishonesty and indeed, even murder. We covet those things we do not have and will jealously take what we can not acquire honestly.

The undeniable truth is that our species as a whole carries greed and envy as natural imperfections.

OK the world is a very deceitful place.

I am curious as to who's history you are referring to.

[edit on 29-6-2009 by In nothing we trust]

Hi/

You know, it never really occurred to me to say this small but very Significant Scrpture ..... if an Angel of darkness(Demon) was to appear in his dark form, then people(some)would FEAR this form of Darkness because he stood for EVIL...True?
So, in order for this Angel to be accepted by the person, the Angel then transforms himself into an Angel of Light!

Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light (II Cor. 11:14)
How very much to the truth,of that Scripture is in todays world!

Here is a simple teaching of Orthodoxy..."Just as fishermen hide the hook with bait and covertly hook the fish,
similarly,
the crafty allies of heresy cover their evil teachings and corrupt understanding with pietism and hook the more simple,
bringing them to spiritual death."
(Cf. The Touchstone, by A. Kalomiros)

ICXC NIKA
helen

What everyone fails to see is that we can change the environment of this country. How? You may ask and You would be rightly asking. If we started to fail to buy EVERYTHING and I do mean Everthing they offer. This is something I have thought about at length. Make enough money and save it or try winning it at the lottery or invest to make a big fortune off the stock market. Use that money to buy a large parcel of land, build yourself a house, just big enough for your family. Till the rest of the ground, build a stable and buy some horses(Or buy yourself some bikes to get around).However the horse dung is good fertilizer, so it's more useful than the bikes. Anyway, grow your own vegetables and grains. Oh and you can either use solar, wind, or hydro power or any combination of both, or you can go the way of the Amish. I prefer somewhat between the two, Solar. and a little touch of the Amish. Get yourself started with the veggies, start a stand and sell your produce that which is not needed for your family, In the meantime get fishing and gaming license, and rods and tackle for fishing, AND BOWS AND ARROWS for hunting.(Why you may ask?) Well because after you get your game with the arrows, you can pull them out, clean and reuse them, Not possible with guns/ammo. OK. So then you can even sell some of that meat for some income, Then you can buy your own pigs, cows, and sheep. With the sheep you can make your own clothes, the supply would be endless as l;ong as they reproduce, you can make clothes without ever killing them. Ok. So you have to spend some cash to be self reliant, but, say in five years you've accomplished this. You are no longer at the mercy of money. But you have a little left obviously from your meat sales and produce stand, so what do you do with that? Well you really don't want it to go to consumption, so forgo giving it to a charity. A better thing to do is to use it to build your own "SOUP KITCHEN" Using the meat you raise and the vegetables and grain you grow, feed some poor hungry folk in your area, and give them a place to sleep, Who knows? This may start a communal, but something like the Amish, nothing like the crazy cults, except it'll be for people who want to Shun consumption, and then more people may join, the more the merrier. Heck, if we all did something like that imagine how F'ED the corporations would be? Plus we would all again learn how to BE A COMMUNITY again, to show interdependance and tolerance and acceptance, as long as everyone offered something to help the commune. See nothing would be FREE, per se, but it would be like a co'op. But, yeah that's just ridiculous to have this kind of dream, right? I know. But it isn't impossible.

[edit on 29-6-2009 by ldyserenity]

Originally posted by ldyserenity
I don't necessarily think money lust breeds decietfulness, however the people who control the money...Ie. the government I do beleive in their control over this aspect of all of our lives, rich or poor, they have been decietful ...

mmmmm I disagree.

It is always easier to blame the people who pull the strings when there are many in the audience who would jump at the chance to be the puppetier. Everyone owns thier own small slice of decietfulness. Some people are not even honest with themselves.

Greed and deceitfulness are closely related. Greed is really just a commentary on the human condition. Greed is really a survival instinct, but some people just get carried away with it.


[edit on 30-6-2009 by In nothing we trust]

ldyserenity, you CAN go backwards like this and have a good time doing it. But if everybody did it like that, then we would have the same problems as before.

Modern systems and methods to achieve advance for the few at the expense of the many are the only hope for humanity. We must each master the skill of killing softly those that help us the most. Think about others as animals. We kill them to survive.

Nobody ever won by not playing.

---

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pls watch above,its very interesting and it might give some thoughts of how the money works

People aren't born evil.
But evil is.

Originally posted by ldyserenity

Almost all those things you mentioned, except Hinduism, are government factions; and really Hinduism became the governing authority there, so am I wrong?

I believe that Hinduism became the governing faction in India simply because they pursued a policy of divide and conquor. They segregated the people into non-mobile classes, restricted the disemination of information and let each succeeding layer of society dominate and repress the layer below it.

... am I wrong in blaming the governement whom controls the money and where it goes?

No I don't think you are wrong at all.

[edit on 1-7-2009 by In nothing we trust]

Originally posted by helen670

You know, it never really occurred to me to say this small but very Significant Scrpture ..... if an Angel of darkness(Demon) was to appear in his dark form, then people(some)would FEAR this form of Darkness because he stood for EVIL...True?

So, in order for this Angel to be accepted by the person, the Angel then transforms himself into an Angel of Light!

Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light (II Cor. 11:14)
How very much to the truth,of that Scripture is in todays world!

I rather like these two passages Helen.

So who is the evil one?

Satan or Satan?

Mark 3:26

And if Satan opposes himself and is divided, he cannot stand; his end has come.

Luke 11:18

If Satan is divided against himself, how can his kingdom stand? I say this because you claim that I drive out demons by Beelzebub.