We Masons are not Illuminati!!!

reply to post by King Seesar


Jesus is a bastardized translation Yeshua. It's not another name, it's what happens after many years of people repeating it.
Comparing that to names that people have either invented or tossed in is a entirely different matter.
A link doesn't prove you understand it. I've already discussed it. You read the full chapter, from one of the many resources I've provided for you, and then come back an weigh your opinion.

I am not debating the existence of the quote. it exists.

However, I can prove that Jesus was a vampire with one quote from the Bible.

Having read the Book and verse, I instead understand the point of the passage and his speech.

Originally posted by King Seesar
As far as both Lucifer and Jesus being referred to as the Morning Star, my opinion leads me to beleave that there were two different Morning Stars.

Look mate, where exactly is Satan referred to as a Morning star?
Because the passage in Isiah refers to wholly different character, that of an ancient king, not Satan.


[edit on 2-7-2009 by RuneSpider]

Originally posted by King Seesar
As far as both Lucifer and Jesus being referred to as the Morning Star, my opinion leads me to beleave that there were two different Morning Stars.

Personally I don't have the temerity to say there are TWO "morning stars" , but as far as Lucifer goes (approaching ad nauseam) it's Venus, which is, of course "the morning star"

"Lucifer is a name frequently given to the Devil in Christian belief. This usage as a reference to a fallen angel stems from a particular interpretation of Isaiah 14:3-20, a passage that speaks of someone who is given the name of "Day Star" or "Morning Star" (in Latin, Lucifer) as fallen from heaven.[2] 2 Peter 1:19 and elsewhere, the same Latin word lucifer is used of the morning star with no relation to the devil. However, in writings later than those in the Bible, the Latin word Lucifer has often been used instead as a proper name for the devil."

Source:
en.wikipedia.org...

Note the section on the "Lucifer myth" as well as the "Taxil hoax"

At any rate, to refer to Jesus as "the bright, and morning star" is, of course, symbolic. He's also called "the Lamb of God" and certainly we understand that he's not actually a "lamb"

I've gotten much farther into this discussion than I had planned (insomnia is a miraculous thing). As I've asked before, read the links I provided. I read yours! Remember?

reply to post by RuneSpider


1. Isaiah 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! Isaiah 14:11-13 (in Context) Isaiah 14 (Whole Chapter)

I take this verse as to mean Lucifer was the morning star son of the morning, just my take on it.

Plus i disagree with your take on Jesus being a bastardized translation the fact is God has many names it's as simple as that, whatever you wanna call him he's the alpha and omega and all the names point to the same supreme being.

But like i said i'll read your links that you have posted i'm interested in what they have to say.

Originally posted by Roark
Mintwithahole:

Mate, your standards are kinda inappropriate. Judging Pike for being "racist" is like judging a medieval Mongol for being "violent", or an ancient Bedouin for being "sexist".

So "every American" at this time in history was a bigot and a rascist!!?

Are you sure about that?

Are you sure this is what you're saying because I can see an awful lot of posts from Americans telling you you're wrong. ..

All you masons who going on about the Lucifer reference are completely missing the point. Pike was a well educated man, a genius in fact. When he mentioned Lucifer he knew full well how his words would be translated by the mainly christian people of the world. You can wrap this up any way you want but to the average man in the street the mere mention of the word Lucifer brings up Satanic overtones. It doesn't matter that he/Pike, meant it in some high brow, smart arse way, what matters is whether or not Pike realised how his words would be translated. And if he didn't maybe he wasn't as bright as he thought he was?

Originally posted by King Seesar


1. Isaiah 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! Isaiah 14:11-13 (in Context) Isaiah 14 (Whole Chapter)

I take this verse as to mean Lucifer was the morning star son of the morning, just my take on it.

I think it's first important to go back to the original documents. You quoted the KJV, but the original Hebrew of course does not contain the Latin phrase "Lucifer", which was added by St. Jerome during translation.

Further, it has always been accepted by Jewish biblical scholars that individual that this verse is referring to was Tigleth-pilaser, king of Babylon when Isaiah wrote the original document. He was not referring to a supernatural being, with the prophecy being that of the fall of Babylon and it's king.

Plus i disagree with your take on Jesus being a bastardized translation the fact is God has many names it's as simple as that, whatever you wanna call him he's the alpha and omega and all the names point to the same supreme being.

I sort of agree, but the Greek name "Jesus" is a corruption of the Hebrew?Aramaic Yeheshuah.

Regardless, Pike used the classical reference to "Lucifer". The Romans often called the Greek god Apollo "Lucifer", as well as the planet Venus. The word has nothing to do, per se, with Christianity or its devil.

Originally posted by Mintwithahole.
All you masons who going on about the Lucifer reference are completely missing the point. Pike was a well educated man, a genius in fact. When he mentioned Lucifer he knew full well how his words would be translated by the mainly christian people of the world. You can wrap this up any way you want but to the average man in the street the mere mention of the word Lucifer brings up Satanic overtones.

Certainly Pike was very educated. Something that is a mark in his favor.

But keep this in mind. He DID NOT write this for "the average man in the street" He was writing to Scottish Rite Masons in the Southern Jurisdiction.

NO ONE else.

Indeed he knew full well that the uneducated wouldn't understand what he meant, but he didn't care one iota about that.

He wasn't even writing to UN-educated Masons, he was writing to EDUCATED Masons. In this very book (M&D) he makes that very clear.

It doesn't matter that he/Pike, meant it in some high brow, smart arse way,

It isn't "high-brow" or "smart-arse" to use one's intelligence. Intelligent people communicate in an intelligent manner.

what matters is whether or not Pike realised how his words would be translated. And if he didn't maybe he wasn't as bright as he thought he was?

Again, he wasn't concerned that the average Joe on the street thought.

He wasn't writing to them.

The book wasn't intended for them, but for those who truly wanted to understand the moral lessons of the Scottish Rite in his Jurisdiction.

reply to post by senrak


So once again we come full circle. Pike wasn't interested in the common man he was only interested in conveying his words to the elite! To those selected special few who would be in a place where they would understand what he was talking about. The rest of us, well what does it matter what we think?
It seems to me that freemasonry is built on rather shaky ground. We aren't elite you say but the writings of Pike are only meant for the elite. We invite any one to join but hey, you you wont understand whats going on so why bother? We're not part of the Illuminati/NWO but unless you are on the inside you have no chance of understanding or grasping hold of what the high masons are saying.
This is what people like me worry about when we hear the words masonry and brotherhood, yet you go out of your way to say it's not true then reverse track when the conversation turns to Pike. . . Suddenly the friendly and helpful brotherhood becomes the realm of the select few again!
So, please, which is it?
A brotherhood where you don't have to be a scholar and where everyone is welcome. Or is it a rather secretive society who doesn't care about what those outside the brotherhood think because at the end of the day, we don't matter. . .

Originally posted by Mintwithahole.
reply to post by senrak

 

So once again we come full circle. Pike wasn't interested in the common man he was only interested in conveying his words to the elite!

Mint, for goodness sake. Not all books were meant for the general public to read. Ever seen an Army Field Manual? It wasn't written for you, unless you're in the Army. You can read it, but it's not applicable to you. Neither is Pike's Morals & Dogma, nor several of the books he wrote.

The book's title is:

Morals & Dogma
of the
Ancient & Accepted Scottish Rite
of
FREEMASONRY

Prepared For
The Supreme Council of the Thirty-Third Degree
(Mother Council of the World)
For The
Southern Jurisdiction of the Untied States
and
Published By Its Authority

No, he wasn't writing for the "elite" He was writing for Scottish Rite Masons. Again, not every book that's printed in the world is intended for everyone in the world to read. This one was written for S.R. Masons. Not you. Not Jack Chick. Not John Ankerberg. Not non-Scottish Rite Masons or Scottish Rite Masons in other jurisdictions.

Pike wasn't being an 'elitist' by writing to the membership of his Supreme Council. He was writing an instruction book for them to better understand the fraternity to which they belonged.

The Ritual of the Order of the Eastern Star (since we're talking about stars) was NOT written for you or anyone EXCEPT MEMBERS of The Order of the Eastern Star. Nothing elitist about that.

To those selected special few who would be in a place where they would understand what he was talking about. The rest of us, well what does it
matter what we think?

Again, it wasn't written for YOU. You may certainly read it (I doubt you ever will) and it might be interesting to you and you would likely learn some things that you didn't know. But unless you've experienced membership in the Scottish Rite, much of it's lessons are lost.

It seems to me that freemasonry is built on rather shaky ground.

That's your opinion and you're entitled to it. Personally I believe that Friendship, Morality and Brotherly Love (which is what Masonry is built upon) is a rather sound foundation.

We aren't elite you say but the writings of Pike are only meant for the elite.

Nope. I said M&D was only meant for S.R. Masons. Pike wrote a few things for general distribution, but most of his work was for the Scottish Rite, S.J. in Washington DC. In fact MANY of his writings exist in manuscript form only and are in the Archives of the Supreme Council in D.C.

We invite any one to join

We do NOT invited people to join. An interested party must ask a Mason about joining. If you've missed this in all the Masonic threads you've been involved in, you're selectively reading.

but hey, you you wont understand whats going on so why bother?

Masonic education is freely available to any Mason interested in pursuing it. If he chooses not to, it's his fault that he doesn't understand.

We're not part of the Illuminati/NWO but unless you are on the inside you have no chance of understanding or grasping hold of what the high masons are saying.
This is what people like me worry about when we hear the words masonry and brotherhood,

If you're interested in the truth about Masonry you need to read factual information about it and discuss it with knowledgeable Masons. We LOVE our fraternity and are very willing to open up and tell you about it.

yet you go out of your way to say it's not true then reverse track when the conversation turns to Pike. . .

I've not seen any back-tracking. I'm very open about Pike. He's one of my favorite writers. The Rituals of the Southern Jurisdiction are masterpieces and Pike is the one who revised them into what they are today.

Suddenly the friendly and helpful brotherhood becomes the realm of the select few again!

If you want to put it that way, then, yes. We are. We are a friendly and helpful brotherhood and we are (or should be) very select. We don't want just anyone to be a Mason. In fact there are many people that we don't want at all. If you were an employer would you hire anyone and everyone who walked in and asked for a job? Or would you select those qualified to do the job. Our fraternity does NOT strive to make bad men good. We strive to make good men better. If you apply for membership will we do a background check on you? Darn tootin'! (Sorry for the colloquialism, I've just always wanted to say "darn tootin'" in a post)

A brotherhood where you don't have to be a scholar and where everyone is welcome.

You DON'T have to be a scholar, mint. I know a ton of Masons who aren't. They're still my Brothers though. As I said above, if they CHOOSE to learn more about Masonry, there are plenty resources to allow that to happen. If they're happy not doing so....it's by choice. We don't force Masonic education.

Or is it a rather secretive society who doesn't care about what those outside the brotherhood think because at the end of the day, we don't matter. . .

You're missing the point entirely, mint.
It isn't that those on the outside don't matter as human beings, but if those on the outside choose to think wrongly of Masonry, that's THEIR choice. I'll do what I can to correct the errors, but many (a lot of whom are on this list) don't WANT to be told the truth. They've made up their minds already based on some anti-Masonic website or Bible-thumping preacher with his hand out for donations. Too bad for them. But there's no opening some closed minds.

Originally posted by Mintwithahole.
All you masons who going on about the Lucifer reference are completely missing the point. Pike was a well educated man, a genius in fact. When he mentioned Lucifer he knew full well how his words would be translated by the mainly christian people of the world. You can wrap this up any way you want but to the average man in the street the mere mention of the word Lucifer brings up Satanic overtones. It doesn't matter that he/Pike, meant it in some high brow, smart arse way, what matters is whether or not Pike realised how his words would be translated. And if he didn't maybe he wasn't as bright as he thought he was?

Aaaand maybe he didn't care that the latin term light-carrier was used as in another author's book - Milton's Paradise Lost, as the only place in prominently popular literature where he was paralleled to anything Satan-centric.

-

reply to post by senrak


But you simply can't have it both ways my friend. Either freemasonry is open to all, as most masons on here claim it is, or it is only open to academics who understand what the hidden terminology means.
I like to think I understood the whole handshake thing, the secrecy angle and so on, but now I find that this rascist mason you all seem to support was talking in tongues. Masonic tongues. . ! A language where nothing is what it first appears.
You say Lucifer and 99.9% of us normal, non masons, think you're talking about the devil or at the very least something evil, yet you say Pike was referring to Venus, a lightbearer, etc. When we question it us non masons suddenly become uneducated!

reply to post by senrak


But you simply can't have it both ways my friend. Either freemasonry is open to all, as most masons on here claim it is, or it is only open to academics who understand what the hidden terminology means.
I like to think I understood the whole handshake thing, the secrecy angle and so on, but now I find that this rascist mason you all seem to support was talking in tongues. Masonic tongues. . ! A language where nothing is what it first appears.
You say Lucifer and 99.9% of us normal, non masons, think you're talking about the devil or at the very least something evil, yet you say Pike was referring to Venus, a lightbearer, etc. When we question it us non masons suddenly become uneducated!

Originally posted by Mintwithahole.


But you simply can't have it both ways my friend. Either freemasonry is open to all, as most masons on here claim it is, or it is only open to academics who understand what the hidden terminology means.

Freemasonry, as an organization, is not open to "all", it's open to all who meet specific requirements. Likewise with scholarship.

You say Lucifer and 99.9% of us normal, non masons, think you're talking about the devil or at the very least something evil, yet you say Pike was referring to Venus, a lightbearer, etc. When we question it us non masons suddenly become uneducated!

Knowing the origin of the word "Lucifer" has nothing to do with being a Freemason. It's simply the fruits of honest research.

This, by the way, is the meaning of the oft-quoted line from Pike, where he said it was a "strange and mysterious" name for Christians to give to their devil, simply because the word means "light bearer". Pike seems to have believed that the Christians who adopted it had an esoteric reason for doing so.

As for as Pike's personal interpretations of both Satan and Lucifer, they are found on p. 102 of Morals and Dogma. Here, Pike adopts the traditional theosophical view that "Satan" is a symbol of the animal instinct, especially of sexuality, and does not literally exist as a spiritual being. He also notes the comparison with "the false Lucifer of the legend" invented by the "poets", namely, John Milton in his "Paradise Lost".

Since Pike explained all this in depth already in the same book, one wonders why you don't just read it and learn for yourself?

Originally posted by Mintwithahole.
reply to post by senrak

 

But you simply can't have it both ways my friend. Either freemasonry is open to all, as most masons on here claim it is, or it is only open to academics who understand what the hidden terminology means.




I like to think I understood the whole handshake thing, the secrecy angle and so on, but now I find that this rascist mason you all seem to support was talking in tongues. Masonic tongues. . ! A language where nothing is what it first appears.
You say Lucifer and 99.9% of us normal, non masons, think you're talking about the devil or at the very least something evil, yet you say Pike was referring to Venus, a lightbearer, etc. When we question it us non masons suddenly become uneducated!

Freemasonry is open to any who would apply and meet the criteria. They have to believe in a supream being, be of good moral fiber, and not have any problems with the law. (like a felony)

I will admit, Pike is a bit hard to read.(for me at least) But the language is written for masons. Without having been initiated, passed, and raised, you would have never heard some of the terminology most likely. But a mason will have heard and understood this language. There are plenty of smart people who are not masons. there are also plenty of not so smart masons. The whole Pike thing is a thorn for us more than it is anything else. If he never used that term, there would be none of these conversations, and he could have used another term easily. But it is not for me to decide or to judge. He was a brilliant man, great general, and great mason. But to have the entire fraternity trashed because of one man from the south in the late 1800's is crazy. The fraternity had already been around for a hundred years before him. I just wish we could get past the Pike thing altogether. Maybe there is some new dirt to be discussed about us.

edit to try to fix quote.(still trying)

[edit on 2-7-2009 by network dude]

[edit on 2-7-2009 by network dude]

Originally posted by Mintwithahole.
reply to post by senrak

 

But you simply can't have it both ways my friend. Either freemasonry is open to all, as most masons on here claim it is, or it is only open to academics who understand what the hidden terminology means.

This has already been responded to above, but let me reiterate. Freemasonry ISN'T "open to all" I don't recall anyone here saying it is..and if they did, they are mistaken. Freemasonry IS selective. But, it doesn't necessarily select "academics" either. There are some who are; some who aren't. The various lectures of the rituals (which is what Pike compiled M&D to be...a collection of lectures for the rituals of the Scottish Rite) are intended to teach those Masons who want to learn. Some choose not to learn much about Freemasonry. That's their choice. There are no written exams on the degrees. One is not forced to learn. Doesn't make them less of a Mason, but certainly there are Masons who've taken the time to learn and now know more than others. No different than the school kid who makes a C or a D in Algebra vs. the one who makes an A. They're still students.

I like to think I understood the whole handshake thing, the secrecy angle and so on, but now I find that this rascist mason you all seem to support was talking in tongues. Masonic tongues. . ! A language where nothing is what it first appears.

Again, you've missed the point. Your bitterness toward a man you never even knew is blocking your comprehension here.

You say Lucifer and 99.9% of us normal, non masons, think you're talking about the devil or at the very least something evil, yet you say Pike was referring to Venus, a lightbearer, etc. When we question it us non masons suddenly become uneducated!

You are uneducated on this particular subject, lest we'd not be having this conversation. If one were to look deeper into what Pike actually wrote about it and review the pages and references sent, one could suddenly become educated on this subject. It's not an insult or degrading to be uneducated on a subject. But to discuss it intelligently, takes some work. No one knows everything, but through reading and instruction from others more knowledgeable on a particular subject, one may certainly learn new things.....if he so desires.

Originally posted by Masonic Light
Pike is interpreted correctly by those who do honest research. Why should Pike have cared what the dishonest ones and the Mason-bashers thought?

I can't remember the exact quote, but from a podcast reading of a old paper, "Freemasonry doesn't seek the approval or praise of man." I agree good men ( and women) will see what Pike meant and see that much of his writing is beautiful poetry that is filled with symbolism and allegory.

Originally posted by Masonic Light
I had read Pike before I became a Mason, and it was his works that made me want to become a Mason in the first place. I've heard many others say the same. Without the genius of Pike, I never would have even become a Mason.

As for the whole Lucifer thing, this is what I found:

Here is what Albert Pike wrote in Morals and Dogma:

LUCIFER, the Light-bearer! Strange and mysterious name to give to the Spirit of Darknesss! Lucifer, the Son of the Morning! Is it he who bears the Light, and with its splendors intolerable blinds feeble, sensual or selfish Souls ? Doubt it not!

Lucifer is latin for light bringer and the name the Romans gave the morning star, the son of the morning, the star that preceded the rising sun. I thought it was strange though that many scholars still debate whether Lucifer = Satan as it is mentioned only once in the Bible.

Isaiah 14:12 - How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

I then fell upon this Biblical verse:

Revelations 22:16 - I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

I will let you all draw a conclusion.

Here is a good site of information on it: Masonic Info

reply to post by Mintwithahole.

Actually there is no proof that Pike was a leader, or even a member, of the KKK.

reply to post by amfirst

The the Misraim has 90-degrees, and I doubt the credibility of a man who calls himself a vampire. Plus any man who says he is a Illuminatus, a Catholic priest, and a Satanic priest has problems with keeping his oaths to God.

Here is a article I found that the first two paragraphs are nicely worded.

William J. Schnoebelen must be one of the world's most gullible individuals. Those in the United States and Australia in particular have become accustomed to television fare such as "World's Dumbest Criminals" where the most ludicrous and irrational behavior of those who attempt to commit crimes are recounted. That notwithstanding, Mr. Schnoebelen really seems to 'take the cake' in terms of naiveté.

He claims that he was a 'witch' (whatever his definition of that is) for some 16 years until he discovered that being a witch was evil. (He has created his own definitions where paganism is the same as witchcraft). He was a Mormon for some 5 years until he discovered their supposed evils. And, of course, he was a Mason (for 8-9 years) until he discovered that Freemasonry (he now claims) was evil as well. Perhaps after a few more years as whatever he is now, he'll discover some evil there as well - and will write a book about it while going 'on the stump' with speaking engagements. Yes, Bill is nothing if not dexterous with his beliefs and slow to find yet another 'truth' (or lucrative opportunity....).

Masonic Info - Bill Schnoebelen

I'd like to put this to King Seesar and Mintwithahole:

I have posted three links to where you can browse and scrutiny Morals and Dogma at your leisure.
Since the pages are search able, pull up the quote, and examine it yourself.
Pike was discussing how odd it is, that Satan was named Light Bearer, and later goes on to discuss why he may have that name.

This is not in support of Lucifer, merely a attempt to understand the name given to him.

Like someone said earlier Pike is a bit hard to read but I did have a brief, Sorry if that means I'm uneducated, look at his life story and some of the things he is alleged to have said. It seems one thing we can all agree on and that is that Pike was an out and out rascist. And you can't dress it up as everyone at that time was also rascist because thats just to tar everyone with the same brush and thats not right.
Masons aren't the Illuminati but they may well be supplying the shadowy elite with likely candidates, big businessmen, bankers, etc. That we can debate until the cows come home and I dont suppose we'll ever agree. Masons aren't shape shifting lizards! Thats just ridiculous. I dont even think all masons are bad or evil although I sometimes doubt whether a society with secrets would tell everyone every secret it has in its arsenal.

But what I do know, and I think it's a thorn in the side of freemasonry, is that Albert Pike shared the rascist views of the KKK. I think he knew darn well that everyone would jump to the wrong conclusions when he mentioned Lucifer, and he delighted in it. He seems to have been a narcistic big head who was drawn to the masons because it offered him a suitable platform to show just how smart he was.
When freemasons support and protect Pikes name they are, in effect, forgiving him for being a bigot. Unfortunately I'm not that forgiving.
And as for dishing up even more dirt on the masons as someone above mentioned a few posts back. I hardly think its worth the effort. The fact that you hold the memory of this dispicable man (Pike) so close to your hearts speaks volumes about freemasonry.

reply to post by Mintwithahole.


I honestly don't give a rat's ass about Pike and I'm a 32° Scottish Rite Mason in the Southern Jurisdiction. I just want people to quote him honestly—not out of context, not made-up hoaxes.

reply to post by Masonic Light

Strange indeed! You would think that someone of his fame would have been on the rolls if he had been a member.

reply to post by Mintwithahole.

Actually Ms. Susan Davis published Authentic History which proved all that Fleming wrote to be false. All that have come since then are just citing him or lying.

reply to post by Mintwithahole.

What I find funny in all this that Pike commanded a unit of Native Americans. An act which drew criticism from his peers.

reply to post by Mintwithahole.

Can you please cite a credible source?

reply to post by Mintwithahole.

You seem to be missing the point that Masons don't seek the approval and praise of man. To the rational thinking and good mind, it understands Pike's words and does not try to twist them to entrap the weak minded. Plus his words only pertain to the Scottish Rite.

reply to post by Mintwithahole.

It wasn't the elite, but the Masons. Maybe at that time it was fairly elitist as you needed money, and the taboos of being in the same club as your boss.

You speak of Albert Pike as if he was the very foundation, but he is just one man who spoke on one branch of the Craft. Who says our members don't understand the meanings? We give excellent, IMO, explanatory lectures on everything to do with the Craft and ceremonies which accompany them.

What bothers me is that so many non-members try to lecture to the members what they perceive. It's the height of arrogance and ignorance to think that a non-member may know more about a group than the member. Particularly when those non-members post so much that just isn't, and when a member goes to correct them the conspirator claps his hands to his ears exclaiming
I won't hear it, it's not true" like some bad imitation of the 1st "No-Evil" monkeys.

How can their be rational debate when fact is presented to you and you shove your head in the dirt? So much hate and discontent over misunderstandings and falsehoods spilled from the mouths of liars.

reply to post by Mintwithahole.

Freemasonry is always open to those who seek it with a pure heart and good intention. Because you won't understand the meaning does not make it evil.

As I am pushing the bounds of the limit post I will stop. Following I will post a poem that speaks volumes. I'm sure some here will have problems with it as it was written by a Brother Mason.

[edit on 2-7-2009 by KSigMason]