We Masons are not Illuminati!!!

I don't know of anyone who thinks that low level masons are the illuminati. I think the illuminati are amongst or move in circles with the upper echelons of freemasonary.

Originally posted by PronoEast

I agree with your statement that it is my belief that Jesus Christ is the only way to God. I have proved my point however that it is Freemasonry's stance that all religions are accepted. That is my personal fault with Freemasonry. Yes, I think that all other religions are incorrect, but this is my specific fault with masonry: it believes all religions are equal. As a man of a specific faith, that is wrong to me. So I'm glad we can finally agree and discuss this to this point. I appreciate your opinion network. It's always nice to be able to disagree and still have a pleasant conversation. Thank you for that.

I'm afraid you may have misunderstood the Masonic stance on the issue. Freemasonry doesn't accept "all religions", nor does it claim "that all religions are equal". Freemasonry states that all people are equal, and that all people have the right to hold their own religious beliefs without an arbitrary authority persecuting them for it. The Lodge does not accept "all religions". Indeed, it doesn't accept any "religions". It accepts people.

reply to post by Masonic Light


thanks for clarifying that for me. Apparently I was unable to explain that.

Since the US was founded on masonic principals (in part), it makes sense that we would have freedom of religion in both lodge and country. Which for any religious man should be a great thing. After all, if this was a dictatorship, and you were not free to chose your religion and practice it how you see fit, you might have to hide your beliefs from others instead of sharing it.

One of the most unrecognized and least known facts about Freemasonry is its Jewish origins and nature. The religion called 'Judaism', codified in the Babylonian Talmud and the Kabbalah, forms the basis for the doctrines, rituals, and symbols of Masonry. The secret god of both Freemasonry and Judaism is Satan-Lucifer

thy-weapon-of-war.blogspot.com...

Originally posted by necromanser
The secret god of both Freemasonry and Judaism is Satan-Lucifer

thy-weapon-of-war.blogspot.com...

apparently so secret that only you, a few other nut jobs around here, and the webmaster of your site know about it. Since you have all this secret knowledge, you should bring it to a lodge and let them in on your "facts" so we can stop with all the worship of God and junk.

Originally posted by network dude

Originally posted by necromanser
The secret god of both Freemasonry and Judaism is Satan-Lucifer

thy-weapon-of-war.blogspot.com...

apparently so secret that only you, a few other nut jobs around here, and the webmaster of your site know about it. Since you have all this secret knowledge, you should bring it to a lodge and let them in on your "facts" so we can stop with all the worship of God and junk.

apparently you've not made much of a debate. Just saying I'm a nutjob makes you look foolish.

Originally posted by network dude
There are a lot of southern baptists here. They all believe in God and his son. They read the Bible. Some of them are masons.

Funny, Billy Graham complained that all of the top Southern Baptists were Freemasons.

You as a man have no right to tell anyone what their soul is going to do after death. You don't get to make that decision. You don't know what is going to happen to your soul. You only hope you are right.

But, the Freemasons tell each other that they're going to the Celestial Lodge above.

Originally posted by Masonic Light
I'm afraid you may have misunderstood the Masonic stance on the issue. Freemasonry doesn't accept "all religions", nor does it claim "that all religions are equal". Freemasonry states that all people are equal, and that all people have the right to hold their own religious beliefs without an arbitrary authority persecuting them for it. The Lodge does not accept "all religions". Indeed, it doesn't accept any "religions". It accepts people.

Yes, it does.

It says that each man can pray to his own supreme being and use his own religious tome in the search for knowledge.

You're trying to make it look like Freemasonry has absolutely no opinion on faith and religion, which is not necessarily true.

Originally posted by vcwxvwligen

Originally posted by network dude
There are a lot of southern baptists here. They all believe in God and his son. They read the Bible. Some of them are masons.

Funny, Billy Graham complained that all of the top Southern Baptists were Freemasons.

You as a man have no right to tell anyone what their soul is going to do after death. You don't get to make that decision. You don't know what is going to happen to your soul. You only hope you are right.

But, the Freemasons tell each other that they're going to the Celestial Lodge above.

no offence to Rev. Graham, but what significance does he have in this or any other discussion?

And we discuss the celestial lodge in prayer much like heaven is talked about in prayer. We who believe in a divine creator, also believe in some form of afterlife. It's not a lodge mandated thing, and it's not taught to us, you kind of already have to have that belief before you even get in the door.

Originally posted by vcwxvwligen

You're trying to make it look like Freemasonry has absolutely no opinion on faith and religion, which is not necessarily true.

then could you please let us all know which religion Freemasonry regards as correct, or most right?

reply to post by vcwxvwligen


While Freemasonry is open to pretty much all faiths, it is founded on Judeo-Christian beliefs.
Objectively, that can be viewed as indirect support.
Later degrees or the York Rite does require you to swear an Oath to defend Christianity, though doesn't require you to be Christian that I recall.

reply to post by vcwxvwligen

We don't say that just by joining the Masons you will enter favorably into the afterlife. You must be a moral man and a man of Faith. It is not up to man if one enters the gates of Heaven.

I'm sure that many of you masons on here are decent, sincere guys and genuinely do good. I'm also equally sure that none of you know everything about every aspect and section and subsection, whatever names you give them, of the masons.

The international Cabal which is destroying our world has, we know, infiltrated pretty much all positions of power and all important institutions and organisations in all major countries, including charities. I don't understand why you would persist in believing that this would not possibly be the case for Freemasonry.

There have been many serious questions asked, and doubts raised about some Freemasonry organisations, to say the least. There have also been testimonies by ex Masons about the corruption and evil of some aspects of Freemasonry.

While I repeat that I am sure most of you guys are sincere, I believe without any doubt it is possible to say that SOME aspects of Freemasonry are harmless and may even do good. I believe with equal certainty that it's not the case for all.

You will disagree with me, I'm sure, but I wonder if you have ever really given this any serious consideration. IMO itt is very possible that you are being used as the widespread acceptable 'front' for parts of the organisation which are very, very corrupt indeed.

Are you allowed to ask questions about such things within your Lodges?

Originally posted by wcitizen
I'm sure that many of you masons on here are decent, sincere guys and genuinely do good. I'm also equally sure that none of you know everything about every aspect and section and subsection, whatever names you give them, of the masons.

I'm sure you're a decent person as well, but I'm equally sure that unless you're self-employed, you don't know everything about every aspect of the lives of every person you work for or work with either. What kinks are your boss into? How much has the secretary embezzled from the company? Did the company pay for every piece of software on every computer in the office? Or did someone skirt the law and install something they weren't supposed to? Show me ANY organization that's COMPLETELY transparent. You can't. Why should Masonry be held to a different standard?

The international Cabal which is destroying our world has, we know, infiltrated pretty much all positions of power and all important institutions and organisations in all major countries, including charities. I don't understand why you would persist in believing that this would not possibly be the case for Freemasonry.

I can only ask, to what end? Say that TPTB, whatever you want to call them, HAVE infiltrated the Grand Lodge of my state. What exactly are they getting us, the blind underlings, to do without our knowledge or consent? How are they leveraging their position to actually DO anything, particularly anything un-Masonic?

While I repeat that I am sure most of you guys are sincere, I believe without any doubt it is possible to say that SOME aspects of Freemasonry are harmless and may even do good. I believe with equal certainty that it's not the case for all.

I would suggest that in those cases, it is the individual that is guilty of such indiscretions, and not the institution. I'm not saying the institution is incorruptible, but I do think that as large as it is, it would be difficult for institutional corruption to persist for long without someone noticing it and making a big noise about it. Close to 100,000 Masons in my state. Good odds someone's seen something, if there's anything to find...

You will disagree with me, I'm sure, but I wonder if you have ever really given this any serious consideration.

I honestly think it's something that most, if not all, Masons here on ATS have given regular thought to. There are even a few members here who joined Masonry explicitly to try to expose it, or to find out what was going on behind the closed doors, and when they got there, they found there wasn't anything to worry about and decided to stay.

Are you allowed to ask questions about such things within your Lodges?

Sure. The power structure, while a bit difficult to explain, isn't really THAT complicated. Personally know and see regularly at least three former Grand Masters of my state... the guys who ran Masonry in my state for their one year elected term. I've had dinner with both the head of the Scottish Rite in my state, and the head of the Scottish Rite for the Southern Jurisdiction (35 states in the US, and I believe also having sovereignty over some other territories as well). THESE are the "high level Masons" of myth, and they're all very approachable men. If I had concerns, I'd have no problem discussing the matter with them.

Originally posted by JoshNorton

Originally posted by wcitizen
I'm sure that many of you masons on here are decent, sincere guys and genuinely do good. I'm also equally sure that none of you know everything about every aspect and section and subsection, whatever names you give them, of the masons.

I'm sure you're a decent person as well, but I'm equally sure that unless you're self-employed, you don't know everything about every aspect of the lives of every person you work for or work with either. What kinks are your boss into? How much has the secretary embezzled from the company? Did the company pay for every piece of software on every computer in the office? Or did someone skirt the law and install something they weren't supposed to? Show me ANY organization that's COMPLETELY transparent. You can't. Why should Masonry be held to a different standard?

If there were serious, persistent doubts and questions raised by more than one source about the integrity of a company I worked for, or an organisation I belonged to, I would consider it my duty to try to find out the truth. If it proved to be true, I would leave. If I couldn't find out the whole truth but was left with doubts, I would consider looking for an altenative post.

Actually, I have had the experience, I did find out there was corruption. It was an organisation which promoted moral values, high ethical standards and only accepted good people. And I spoke out. Very few people believed me at first. In the end I left. A year or so later the truth came out, a lot was exposed, things gradually changed.

.

I can only ask, to what end? Say that TPTB, whatever you want to call them, HAVE infiltrated the Grand Lodge of my state. What exactly are they getting us, the blind underlings, to do without our knowledge or consent? How are they leveraging their position to actually DO anything, particularly anything un-Masonic?

No, I'm not saying they are getting you to blindly do something without your knowledge or consent. I'm sayng that the bottom layers of the Freemasonry pyramid, if you will, could represent the plausible, benign part of the organisation. But at the top of the pyramid, in other 'branches', there could be other things going which are hidden and which would horrify you if you knew the truth. I don't know specifically, but say, for example, many of the symbols can be used satanically. That seems to be widely acknowledged. So the 'positive' use of these symbols by the lower levels of the pyramid and even some nearer the top, give plausible denaibility, to which you guys would be unwittingly contributing.

would suggest that in those cases, it is the individual that is guilty of such indiscretions, and not the institution.
I was trying to be clear that I wasn't saying the whole institution might be corrupt. But there could be groups within the institution whose agenda is harmful and corrupt, people who have a lot of power in society to boot.

You will disagree with me, I'm sure, but I wonder if you have ever really given this any serious consideration.

I honestly think it's something that most, if not all, Masons here on ATS have given regular thought to. There are even a few members here who joined Masonry explicitly to try to expose it, or to find out what was going on behind the closed doors, and when they got there, they found there wasn't anything to worry about and decided to stay.

But that still doesn't mean there aren't some very powerful branches of Freemasonry which could be very corrupt indeed.

Sure. The power structure, while a bit difficult to explain, isn't really THAT complicated. Personally know and see regularly at least three former Grand Masters of my state... the guys who ran Masonry in my state for their one year elected term. I've had dinner with both the head of the Scottish Rite in my state, and the head of the Scottish Rite for the Southern Jurisdiction (35 states in the US, and I believe also having sovereignty over some other territories as well). THESE are the "high level Masons" of myth, and they're all very approachable men. If I had concerns, I'd have no problem discussing the matter with them.

OK, so you've had dinner with them. My point is, there are serious suspicious and in some cases accusations and even, in some cases, statements from alleged victims, that the Scottish Rite has involvement with paedophilia and child abductions. Perhaps you've heard of Holly Reid. That's just one example. Of course, they would deny it if you asked them, but you didn't, so you didn't see what their reponse was. Many high level criminals appear manicured, smart, genteel and approachable. That's how they operate. That's how they dupe people and mask the truth. The criminal politicians are experts in it, for example.

reply to post by wcitizen


I really do understand what you are saying. We as masons, can't possibly know everything that goes on in all of masonry. I have no idea what happens in a 33rd degree meeting. I am not a 33rd degree mason and have not been invited to one. But your assertations that there are evil things going on in our organization are incorrect. First and foremost, you being the accuser has to bring proof that group "XYZ" is doing something bad. Then we as masons will vehemently defend group "XYZ" or we will look at your proof and decide that indeed there is something bad happening. You can't just assume that a group that doesn't publish it's agenda is automatically doing bad things. I as a mason and I as a member of this site, would take it upon myself to fix a problem that might exist within my organization, if it was in my power to prevent. I am sure you would not like me telling you that you know nothing of how to communicate on ATS. That you are just a noob and have no idea of the intracasies of global mass communication. That would be rude of me to assume that I know anything about you other than what I have just read. that is why we get flustered when we get accused of being duped because we are low level masons.

Originally posted by wcitizen
If there were serious, persistent doubts and questions raised by more than one source about the integrity of a company I worked for, or an organisation I belonged to, I would consider it my duty to try to find out the truth. If it proved to be true, I would leave. If I couldn't find out the whole truth but was left with doubts, I would consider looking for an altenative post.

Actually, I have had the experience, I did find out there was corruption. It was an organisation which promoted moral values, high ethical standards and only accepted good people. And I spoke out. Very few people believed me at first. In the end I left. A year or so later the truth came out, a lot was exposed, things gradually changed.

I assure you, the same thing would happen if any actual corruption were exposed in any of the organizations of which I'm a member.

I don't know specifically, but say, for example, many of the symbols can be used satanically. That seems to be widely acknowledged. So the 'positive' use of these symbols by the lower levels of the pyramid and even some nearer the top, give plausible denaibility, to which you guys would be unwittingly contributing.

I'm not sure how to react to that. I realize you're saying a "what if", and not levying anything accusatory in your example, but the concept of "using a symbol satanically" sounds like a bunch of superstition to me. Call me a skeptic, but a symbol is a symbol. It can have meaning and interpretation, but it, in and of itself, has no inherent power. You got me stumped, and I consider myself a practitioner of chaos magick and am well versed with sigils and the like. The symbol itself doesn't do anything... it's just something to focus on while your mind does the real work...

Originally posted by network dude

Originally posted by vcwxvwligen
Funny, Billy Graham complained that all of the top Southern Baptists were Freemasons.

You as a man have no right to tell anyone what their soul is going to do after death. You don't get to make that decision. You don't know what is going to happen to your soul. You only hope you are right.

But, the Freemasons tell each other that they're going to the Celestial Lodge above.

no offence to Rev. Graham, but what significance does he have in this or any other discussion?

And we discuss the celestial lodge in prayer much like heaven is talked about in prayer. We who believe in a divine creator, also believe in some form of afterlife. It's not a lodge mandated thing, and it's not taught to us, you kind of already have to have that belief before you even get in the door.

You said only a few of the Southern Baptists in your area were Freemasons, which does not accurately reflect the Southern Baptist congregation as a whole, or even high-level Southern Baptists.

What does a divine creator have to do with an afterlife or a celestial lodge?

Originally posted by network dude

Originally posted by vcwxvwligen

You're trying to make it look like Freemasonry has absolutely no opinion on faith and religion, which is not necessarily true.

then could you please let us all know which religion Freemasonry regards as correct, or most right?

Any religion whose practice includes the worship of a supreme being.

reply to post by KSigMason


Freemasonry says that a man will enter the Celestial Lodge above if he wears the apron.