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We Masons are not Illuminati!!!

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posted on Jul, 19 2009 @ 06:11 PM
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Originally posted by Majestic23


This coming from someone who said to me in a related thread...


Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus
I do not think we actually need to give it to you as all of Masonry's teachings are already in the public domian and you most likely already know and practice them.


Double standards, but did I expect any less from someone who suggests belonging to an obscure club = good person?


You are being very disengenious because in the same post I gave you all of the 'teachings' of Masonry which are Brotherly Love, Relief and Charity. You do not need a Mason to teach you these principals and I was very clear in that message as to what I meant. There is no 'secret knowledge' there is no 'mystical knowledge' it all boils down to being good to other people. Hopefully no one needs a handbook for this type of behavior.




Did I suggest such a thing?


It certainly would appear to me that you did.


As has been made clear, if you arent in the driving seat of such an organisation you have little to no idea what the organisations goal actually is.


Please explain to me who is in control? Who 'runs' the orginization? Explain the power structure. It would seem that you have peculiar knowledge in this regard and I would like you to share that with everyone.



There are plenty of well meaning people who are sometimes exploited. Iam not suggesting this of you specifically. But in effect what you are doing is defending something that probably doesant deserve your efforts.


Does not deserve my efforts? By whose standard? Yours? Who are you to tell others how to allocate their free time? This is one of the recurring comments made on this site that really crack me up, all the people screaming about the impending New World Order are usually the first people to instruct others on what they should or should not be doing.

[edit on 19-7-2009 by AugustusMasonicus]




posted on Jul, 19 2009 @ 06:46 PM
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Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus
You are being very disengenious because in the same post I gave you all of the 'teachings' of Masonry which are Brotherly Love, Relief and Charity. You do not need a Mason to teach you these principals and I was very clear in that message as to what I meant. There is no 'secret knowledge' there is no 'mystical knowledge' it all boils down to being good to other people. Hopefully no one needs a handbook for this type of behavior.


The teachings of Masonry are "Brotherly Love, Relief and Charity"? Pull the other one. You sound like an acolyte.

You could apply those ideas to give a quick description of any religion. If thats as much about Masonry as you know then we are going to have a very stunted conversatoin.



What has all that got to do with "Brotherly Love, Relief and Charity"? Really, there is a deep meaning to this symbolism. I feel its deeper than you suspect.


Originally posted by AugustusMasonicusPlease explain to me who is in control? Who 'runs' the orginization? Explain the power structure. It would seem that you have peculiar knowledge in this regard and I would like you to share that with everyone.


I doubt it this being a conspiracy site.









Originally posted by AugustusMasonicusDoes not deserve my efforts? By whose standard? Yours? Who are you to tell others how to allocate their free time? This is one of the recurring comments made on this site that really crack me up, all the people screaming about the impending New World Order are usually the first people to instruct others on what they should or should not be doing.


Again you are making an argument out of nothing. Irs a web forum, you cant be so sensitive. I said "probably", you make it as though I was preaching at you.



posted on Jul, 19 2009 @ 07:41 PM
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Originally posted by Majestic23
The teachings of Masonry are "Brotherly Love, Relief and Charity"? Pull the other one. You sound like an acolyte.


Here in lies the problem. These are all the 'great secrets' revealed, yet, for some reason, you feel that there is more. Life is not that complicated and neither is Masonry.


You could apply those ideas to give a quick description of any religion.


I do not see what religion has to do with this, you do not need religion to be good to other people.


What has all that got to do with "Brotherly Love, Relief and Charity"? Really, there is a deep meaning to this symbolism. I feel its deeper than you suspect.


Actually, most of that symbolism is, in my opinion, to reinforce the tenets that I explained to you and to teach a few others of a similar nature.



The ladder is Jacobs Ladder 'The three principle rounds of which are Faith, Hope and Charity.'

The three pillars represent wisdom, strength and beauty as well as the three original orders of architecture; the Doric, Ionic and Corinthian.

The Rough Ashlar and The Perfect Ashlar (the stones in the back left and right) represent our imperfect state and by the application of these principals we strive for perfection.

The Level teaches equality, the Plumb, rectitude of life and conduct and the Square, morality.

The checkered floor shows that life is filled with good times and hardship.


If I missed anything I am certain that other Masons might explain them. If you want further clarification please let me know.




I doubt it this being a conspiracy site.







Posting hand-drawn pictures and silly parlor tricks is not an explanation, it is the avoidance of one. In your own words please tell us the names of the people who you feel run Masonry, how they stay in control and how they rose to this position. You claimed it, now back it up.







[edit on 19-7-2009 by AugustusMasonicus]



posted on Jul, 19 2009 @ 07:45 PM
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Originally posted by Majestic23


What has all that got to do with "Brotherly Love, Relief and Charity"? Really, there is a deep meaning to this symbolism. I feel its deeper than you suspect.
Well, this particular picture has nothing to do with Brotherly Love, Relief and Charity. Instead, it shows Wisdom, Beauty & Strength, Ionic, Dorian & Corinthian columns, the jewels of the Jr. Warden, Sr. Warden and Worshipful Master, the Sun, the Moon and God and some other stuff. I don't recognize the key, and some of the details are too small for me to make out from this particular picture.


Most of the Masons on this site are 2 or 3 levels below "Global Elite". Where are YOU in the picture?


Any Mason (or anyone who's taken geometry in junior high) worth his salt knows that a real five pointed star has 36° angles and sides of equal length. What's this rubbish you're trying to show us?



posted on Jul, 19 2009 @ 10:13 PM
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I have a question.

I have not looked at other Conspiracy web sites so, I can not speak for them, but I have noticed that there are many masons here at ats.

Do masons join sites like these because of the stigma that they are conspiring so that they may see what is said about them?

Though I'm sure you each as individuals have your own reasons, but it is odd to me that there are so many on ats.

Do masons identify themselves as masons on the site so that other masons will know them? I mean, I don't see people Identify their race, or their occupation, not even so much their religion (even though they espouse their beliefs), but almost all masons I've come across here have something to identify them as such. I don't know how many Shriners are on the sight or Elks Club members are here, but most masons ID themselves. Why?

If my ancestors (Great Grandfathers) were masons, can I join?

Thanks



posted on Jul, 19 2009 @ 10:38 PM
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Originally posted by letthereaderunderstand
Do masons join sites like these because of the stigma that they are conspiring so that they may see what is said about them?


I can only speak for myself but I stumbled across the 9/11 ATS forum and hung around for a while before it got just too far out there to be worth even bothering with. I noticed the SS forum, looked about and have occasionally posted here ever since trying to address what to me are obvious errors or else outright trolling.


Originally posted by letthereaderunderstand
Though I'm sure you each as individuals have your own reasons, but it is odd to me that there are so many on ats.


There aren't that many (half-dozen or so).


Originally posted by letthereaderunderstand
Do masons identify themselves as masons on the site so that other masons will know them?


A Mason will probably be able to suss out another Mason by the knowledge that the other Mason demonstrates as well as by their choice of words. By the same token, a Mason will just as easily suss out a fake Mason.


Originally posted by letthereaderunderstand
If my ancestors (Great Grandfathers) were masons, can I join?


Even if they weren't, as long as you're of mature age (varies by jurisdiction), believe in a Supreme Being and are of good moral character, there shouldn't be anything to stop you.



posted on Jul, 19 2009 @ 10:44 PM
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How long have you been a brother mason?



posted on Jul, 20 2009 @ 01:16 AM
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reply to post by Fitzgibbon
 


Thank you Fitzgibbon for answering my questions. I appreciate you doing that.

I believe in a supreme being in as much as supreme means being "Final or last" to render "Final Being". Is this the understanding of supreme being the masons attend to, or is it, and I mean no offense by this but, an invisible being?

As I understand, there are men of many faiths, yet acknowledging the faith they attend to under the understanding of one name amongst one another. I have heard that this name is under the acronym G.A.O.T.U. for Grand Architect Of The Universe. I would gather that this title could apply to any God, that is, the most high in ones faith. Is that correct?

If an atheist does not believe in an invisible being, yet is building his house by teaching his children to observe what is good and right in the eyes of all people and to do right by all people, yet does not teach them to believe in an invisible being, is he eligible?

Sorry, not meaning to be complicated. Everyone sees things in different ways. I guess I'm trying to find your base. If performing rituals, surely they are based of ideals. One of the main themes I would venture to say the masons are built on is "building". If that is the case, then the base must be one and uniformed ideal. If they build society, then they are seeking to be the base of that society, would that be correct?

On Moral Character. What is the standard and who is the Judge? If a man was once a criminal yet has reformed their life, are they eligible? If a man knows the law, therefore knowing the loopholes of that law and uses this to further advance himself, his family or his friends, yet legally, is this acceptable even if that loophole causes others problems?

On language. I have noticed patterns in your speech and others. It appears to be level. For as many rises, are as many falls. Interesting.

I asked this earlier, but I did not receive an answer. Mason means "Son", is that correct?

And finally. I hear, literally in the air, Gimal Ayen Vav. Is this a name? I am told, by the air, to remember this, and not to forget it. I know it sounds crazy about the air, but that's where I hear it.
It means Camal, Eye, Needle. That should be recognizable from Jesus and it is to me, but I couldn't help see the G A V is the masonic seal, specifically the G before the A before the V. Is this anything a mason could inform me of because it is a little unnerving when it happens to me. I will be sitting doing something and I will hear it. All I say is "Here I am". It sounds like wind, like a wooshing sound and the pitch of how fast it wooshes will utter words....really freaked me out the first time. I'm used to it now.

Thanks again, ltru



posted on Jul, 20 2009 @ 01:37 AM
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Originally posted by suzque66
The point is that anything else of value to anyone ...someone is told to 'google it' by keyword and come to a common conclusion.

If it were 'drug abuse' and 'athletes' it would come up with varied sites of supposed value but how many athletes have been actually been tested and caught?

When it comes to sources, sure no direct links can be found, YET. It will be a matter of time and patience., a dangerous endeavour but time will show. As I mentioned, even the Nazi plans are now being studied by historians ... it won't be long until the same happens in this situation.


Plenty of athletes have been caught! That's the whole point! Suspicion led to investigation, which led to conviction of the perpetrators. But the people who cast wild aspersions about Freemasons being organised child molesters have absolutely nothing to base it on!

There are no investigations. There are no convictions. Because there is no basis. Just stupid internet rumours propagated by morons with nothing better to do than demonise a group they know next to nothing about.



posted on Jul, 20 2009 @ 01:40 AM
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The rumours were around a longggg time before the internet don't ja know.

Don't act like you believe they are new.

You know better.



posted on Jul, 20 2009 @ 01:54 AM
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What??? That's beside the point... Wherever the rumours come from, or whatever date stamp is on them (and I'm not sure why you fixated upon this bizarre little point) they are still just rumours. None of them have any foundation. There have been no convictions or investigations of a Masonic body or of a person acting in the capacity of a Freemason.... EVER.

Doesn't that say something to you apart from "ohhh, they just haven't been caught yet"?

The people making the allegations are all whackjobs from what I can see anyway. The kind of people who think that the Masons are following them around in their cars or tapping their phones.



posted on Jul, 20 2009 @ 02:43 AM
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What??? That's beside the point... Wherever the rumours come from, or whatever date stamp is on them (and I'm not sure why you fixated upon this bizarre little point) they are still just rumours. None of them have any foundation. There have been no convictions or investigations of a Masonic body or of a person acting in the capacity of a Freemason.... EVER.


I'm not fixated, seems you are. That topic was sooo pages ago. Besides the title of the thread is based on a rumour also. That is the premise of subject from the person so started it. The accusations that they are illuminati are the tip of the iceburg of the various rumours that fly about. I have already answered on the illuminati subject that it is a resounding NO, imo. (and I gave the reasons why).



posted on Jul, 20 2009 @ 07:02 AM
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Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus
Here in lies the problem. These are all the 'great secrets' revealed, yet, for some reason, you feel that there is more. Life is not that complicated and neither is Masonry.


I think otherwise, I think you are naive. If you see no relation the Egyptian and Kabbalistic magic there is no hope for you, good luck. Also, statements like "life is not that complicated" are pure nonsense just their to make it look like your argument is backed. Quit with your cheap tactics.


Originally posted by AugustusMasonicusI do not see what religion has to do with this, you do not need religion to be good to other people.


Masonry IS a religion, get that in your mind. You dont think its a religion when it clearly is. You are like the Scientologist who thinks because a Christian or Jew can be a Scientologist that mean its not a religion. In any case you are of on a tangent again and not answering the question in context again.


Originally posted by AugustusMasonicusActually, most of that symbolism is, in my opinion, to reinforce the tenets that I explained to you and to teach a few others of a similar nature.


Why, if life "isnt that complicated and niether is Masonry".

You are going to have egg on your face when you learn the true meaning of that symbolism.


Originally posted by AugustusMasonicusPosting hand-drawn pictures and silly parlor tricks is not an explanation, it is the avoidance of one. In your own words please tell us the names of the people who you feel run Masonry, how they stay in control and how they rose to this position. You claimed it, now back it up.


Its a simple concept (lol "parlour tricks"), if you are too slow to understand the ways a heirarchy works then that is your problem.



posted on Jul, 20 2009 @ 07:19 AM
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Originally posted by JoshNorton
Most of the Masons on this site are 2 or 3 levels below "Global Elite". Where are YOU in the picture?


Nowhere and I never will, I stand on my own two feet. You think me not being in the organisation means I know little when actually it means I just see things as they are in an unbiased way. Try an argue the point without trying to discredit me all the wat. Another repeated Masons tactic evident on the net and in the real.

If you are going to argue a few questionble degrees discredits that picture I gave then what can I do? It spells out MASON! Look at the architechture in Washington. Quit being so slow. America is the new Roman Empire, look at Augustus' avatar.



posted on Jul, 20 2009 @ 08:34 AM
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Originally posted by letthereaderunderstand


I believe in a supreme being in as much as supreme means being "Final or last" to render "Final Being". Is this the understanding of supreme being the masons attend to, or is it, and I mean no offense by this but, an invisible being?


The fraternity does not inquire into your personal interpretation of what a "supreme being" would constitute. However, Freemasonry itself recognizes the Deity as a personal being. He is referred to as both God and the Great Architect of the Universe, prayers are addressed to him, his blessing is invoked, etc.


As I understand, there are men of many faiths, yet acknowledging the faith they attend to under the understanding of one name amongst one another. I have heard that this name is under the acronym G.A.O.T.U. for Grand Architect Of The Universe. I would gather that this title could apply to any God, that is, the most high in ones faith. Is that correct?


Technically yes, although the acronym is rarely used in Masonry, with Great Architect of the Universe being almost always used in full. However the word "God" is used just as much.


If an atheist does not believe in an invisible being, yet is building his house by teaching his children to observe what is good and right in the eyes of all people and to do right by all people, yet does not teach them to believe in an invisible being, is he eligible?


Atheists cannot become Masons. However, this prohibition is not because the atheist is assumed to be immoral. It's simply because Freemasonry is a theistic institution, with some of its teachings concentrating on the mysteries of Divinity. These teachings would not be appreciated by the atheist.


If performing rituals, surely they are based of ideals. One of the main themes I would venture to say the masons are built on is "building". If that is the case, then the base must be one and uniformed ideal. If they build society, then they are seeking to be the base of that society, would that be correct?


The building metaphor os actually much more subjective. The Mason is to be a builder of his own character and storehouse of knowledge.


On Moral Character. What is the standard and who is the Judge?


Freemasonry, being more or less a product of the Enlightenment, basically subscribes to a Kantian ethic.


If a man was once a criminal yet has reformed their life, are they eligible?


It would depend on the individual situation, and whether or not the crime was a heinous one.


If a man knows the law, therefore knowing the loopholes of that law and uses this to further advance himself, his family or his friends, yet legally, is this acceptable even if that loophole causes others problems?


Masonic law is different than secular law because Masonic law concentrates solely on morality. For example, in most states, the possession of marijuana is illegal, but is not technically immoral. On the other hand, it is not technically illegal to be an habitual drunk, but it is immoral.


I asked this earlier, but I did not receive an answer. Mason means "Son", is that correct?


Not to my knowledge, at least not in our usage. Our fraternity was derived from the English and Scottish stonemason guilds of the middle ages.


And finally. I hear, literally in the air, Gimal Ayen Vav. Is this a name? I am told, by the air, to remember this, and not to forget it. I know it sounds crazy about the air, but that's where I hear it.
It means Camal, Eye, Needle. That should be recognizable from Jesus and it is to me, but I couldn't help see the G A V is the masonic seal, specifically the G before the A before the V. Is this anything a mason could inform me of because it is a little unnerving when it happens to me.


I've never seen a Masonic seal with those letters. I would suggest that the significance may be Kabalistic rather than Masonic.



posted on Jul, 20 2009 @ 08:46 AM
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Originally posted by letthereaderunderstand
reply to post by Fitzgibbon
 


I believe in a supreme being in as much as supreme means being "Final or last" to render "Final Being". Is this the understanding of supreme being the masons attend to, or is it, and I mean no offense by this but, an invisible being?


Supreme Being in the 'creator-of-all-that-is' mode is what's meant, the final arbiter of existence. Whether one's faith renders that Supreme Being visible on occasion or not is part of the person's faith and not part of Masonry's concern.


Originally posted by letthereaderunderstand
As I understand, there are men of many faiths, yet acknowledging the faith they attend to under the understanding of one name amongst one another. I have heard that this name is under the acronym G.A.O.T.U. for Grand Architect Of The Universe. I would gather that this title could apply to any God, that is, the most high in ones faith. Is that correct?


It's meant to be a non-specific reference where the individual brethren make personal reference to their own understanding of the Supreme Being. This is what allows good men of different faiths to work together in-Lodge knowing that their beliefs are being afforded equal consideration. In my Lodge, our membership is primarily Christian of one stripe or another (Catholic included) but also includes brethren of the Sikh and Jewish faiths.


Originally posted by letthereaderunderstand
If an atheist does not believe in an invisible being, yet is building his house by teaching his children to observe what is good and right in the eyes of all people and to do right by all people, yet does not teach them to believe in an invisible being, is he eligible?


In a word, no. While that person deserves acknowledgement for living a good and just life, a belief in a Supreme Being is a must for becoming a Mason in most of the world. That said, I understand the Grand Orient of France and Lodges constituted under it don't have that requirement.


Originally posted by letthereaderunderstand
Sorry, not meaning to be complicated. Everyone sees things in different ways. I guess I'm trying to find your base. If performing rituals, surely they are based of ideals. One of the main themes I would venture to say the masons are built on is "building". If that is the case, then the base must be one and uniformed ideal. If they build society, then they are seeking to be the base of that society, would that be correct?


Uniformed ideal? Not exactly. More like shared ideal, ideals common amongst the world's religions. The building that goes on within Masonry is building up the moral structure of the individual so that he may be of greater utility to himself, his family and society in general. Masonry doesn't build society so much as remind its brethren of their existence within society in general and how to better support it.


Originally posted by letthereaderunderstand
On Moral Character. What is the standard and who is the Judge? If a man was once a criminal yet has reformed their life, are they eligible?


The Lodge as a whole is the judge in that a man petitioning for membership has to be sponsored by existing members of the Lodge, then a 3-person Board of Investigation is sent out to interview the man in his home (as well as answer any questions he and/or his SO might have about Masonry). Then based on the report of the B of I (as well as their own personal knowledge of the man), the Lodge as a whole votes.

As far as the past criminal thing, that's one of those 'how long is a piece of string' kind of questions. I think the absoluteness of enforcement varies by jurisdiction and (I would think) the nature of the crime and how long past. I would think that a Les Misérables sort of situation would be given a pass but certainly major felonies are not going to be overlooked no matter how exemplary a life and how much time has passed.


Originally posted by letthereaderunderstand
If a man knows the law, therefore knowing the loopholes of that law and uses this to further advance himself, his family or his friends, yet legally, is this acceptable even if that loophole causes others problems?


That's a grey area and one of those things that depends very much on the person being voted on and the Lodge doing the voting.


Originally posted by letthereaderunderstand
On language. I have noticed patterns in your speech and others. It appears to be level. For as many rises, are as many falls. Interesting.

I asked this earlier, but I did not receive an answer. Mason means "Son", is that correct?


Etymology isn't my strong suit. Off the top o my head, I wouldn't think so but I'll leave a definite yea or nay to someone better grounded than I.


Originally posted by letthereaderunderstand
And finally. I hear, literally in the air, Gimal Ayen Vav. [snip]


Nothing that I'm familiar with.


Originally posted by letthereaderunderstand
Thanks again, ltru


Not at all.



posted on Jul, 20 2009 @ 08:50 AM
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Originally posted by Majestic23
Quit being so slow. America is the new Roman Empire, look at Augustus' avatar.


And there you have it sports fans. the leader of the NWO has been found. No further searching is needed. And to think that he was here all this time. he was even listening to our conversations!

Oh, Augustus, leader of the NWO, please don't invoke your wrath on the poor souls at ATS!

Majestic23, just for future reference, if you ask a person a question and they give you their answer to that question, they did their part. Weather or not you believe that answer is completely up to you, but thinking that you know all the answers, why ask questions at all?



posted on Jul, 20 2009 @ 08:52 AM
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reply to post by Fitzgibbon
 





Even if they weren't, as long as you're of mature age (varies by jurisdiction), believe in a Supreme Being and are of good moral character, there shouldn't be anything to stop you.


Good moral character! Did I hear you right? Was Aleister Crowley, 33rd and 97 degree freemason,the infamous beast 666 of good moral character? How about Dr Wynn Westcott who was a member of the Order Of The Golden Dawn? Or how about Helen Blavatsky who wrote, "Satan is the god of our planet and the only god. Lucifer represents life, thought, progress, civilisation, liberty, independance. Lucifer is the logos, the serpent, the saviour.
Seems to me that while modern day masons naively believe that when Pike referred to Lucifer he was not talking about Satan, Blavatsky was under no delusion what masons meant when they mentioned Lucifer. She was talking about the only god (as far as she was concerned). The one true supreme being. . . Mind you that fits in well with the masonic belief in a supreme being doesn't it?
If these are your ideas of people with "good moral character" then I'll pass if you don't mind.



posted on Jul, 20 2009 @ 08:52 AM
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Originally posted by Majestic23
Masonry IS a religion, get that in your mind.


So, please elaborate for us the exact nature of this 'Masonic religion', its god's name, a detailed description of its theology and how it is that men of the world's religions (including leaders of those religions) have long been able to work together in-Lodge and not find the teachings of this 'Masonic religion' to be at odds with their own faith.

I wait with rapt anticipation your detailed and complete answer to the above questions.



posted on Jul, 20 2009 @ 08:54 AM
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reply to post by Masonic Light
 


Masonic Light...thank you sir. I really appreciate that. You even answered my weird question...thanks. Forgive me for the seal comment. I was thinking of the G inside of the compass and square. I thought that was a seal. If not a seal what is it, so I don't say that wrong next time if I may ask.

Thanks again.

Peace



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