We Masons are not Illuminati!!!

I said I wouldn't post again here, but I have to warn my fellow ATS'ers that they might NOT want to click on the Eric Phelps video posted above, because he is a known white supremacist. O.K. NOW I am out of here!

oh you dudes seriously,

now I am some other chick with the same name? How many suz's do you think there are in the world? About the same number of Lindas.

This is my first and only account here on ATS. If you got issues with her, take it up with her.

To the freemasons here can I ask you two questions? All except you Augustus masonicus because I don't think I have the time to read one of your meandering answers. . .
1. What part does the flaming torch have with freemasonry? Is it something to do with the light bearer? French freemasons gave the statue of liberty to the people of New York which has the flaming torch in it's right hand. Is the torch significant?

2. What part does the five pointed star play in freemasonry? What does it signify?

I eagerly await your answers.

Originally posted by Mintwithahole.
1. What part does the flaming torch have with freemasonry? Is it something to do with the light bearer? French freemasons gave the statue of liberty to the people of New York which has the flaming torch in it's right hand. Is the torch significant?

From what I know, a torch per se doesn't have any particular significance. In the lodge there are 3 burning tapers (candles, or lightbulb representatives thereof) representing "the three lesser lights in Masonry". (The three "great lights" are the Holy Bible, square & compasses. The lesser lights are the sun, moon and Worshipful Master of the lodge.)

2. What part does the five pointed star play in freemasonry? What does it signify?

Star? Again, nothing particularly significant. 3, 5 and 7 are all significant numbers to Masons and are used a few different places in the degrees. There were 5 lights in the ceiling above the altar at one or two lodges I've attended, but with nothing connecting those points, they're just as much pentagons as stars or inscribed pentagrams.

Should be noted the OES is represented byt a five point star.
The Eastern Star comes from this part in Matthew:

After they had heard the king, they went on their way, and the star they had seen in the east went ahead of them until it stopped over the place where the child was. When they saw the star, they were overjoyed. On coming to the house, they saw the child with his mother Mary, and they bowed down and worshipped him. Then they opened their treasures and presented him with gifts of gold and of incense and of myrrh.

One of the Christian interpretations of the symbol is the star that led the wise men to Jesus in the manger.

Originally posted by Mintwithahole.
To the freemasons here can I ask you two questions?
1. What part does the flaming torch have with freemasonry?

There isn't anything in the lectures or symbolism about torches, but they are used in the Scottish Rite. Mackey (Encyclopedia of Freemasonry Vol II) says this:

"The ancients made use of torches both at marriages and funerals. They were also employed in the ceremonies of the Eleusinian mysteries.

They have been introduced in the degrees especially on the Continent, principally as marks of honor in the reception of distinguished visitors, on which occasion they are technically called 'stars'"

Is it something to do with the light bearer?

No. It is not. Why do you insist on trying to pick a fight?

French freemasons gave the statue of liberty to the people of New York which has the flaming torch in it's right hand. Is the torch significant?

No. FRANCE gave the Statue of Liberty to the people of THE UNITED STATES. Her designer/sculptor was a Mason. Ever heard the term "the torch of liberty?" She's holding it. Note on her hand, though, there's no Masonic ring.

2. What part does the five pointed star play in freemasonry? What does it signify?

Again, Mackey says this: "The five-pointed star, which is not to be confounded with the blazing star, is not found among the old symbols of Masonry; indeed, some writers have denied that it is a Masonic emblem at all. It is undoubtedly of recent origin, and was probably introduced by Jeremy Cross, who placed it among the plates in the emblems of the Third Degree prefixed to his Hieroglyphic Chart It is not mentioned in the ritual or the lecture of the Third Degree, but the Masons of this country have, by tacit consent, referred to it as a symbol of the Five Points of Fellowship. The outlines of the five-pointed star are the same as those of the pentalpha of Pythagoras, which was the symbol of health."


[edit for grammar and spelling]

[edit on 11-7-2009 by senrak]

reply to post by Mintwithahole.

I remain skeptical due to my own personal experience.

reply to post by Mintwithahole.

1. In Idaho work at least and in Craft Masonry, the torch means nothing. It is not a major symbol of the Order.

2. The Five Pointed Star plays a part in the Order of the Eastern Star. I believe, as I am not in it yet, it represents the five women who the Eastern Star surrounds and the star also represents the Star of Bethlehem.

Minwithahole: You may have noticed by now that Suzque66's modus operandi is not to present facts, but rather to:

1. cast wild aspersions about people she doesn't like.
2. refuse to address the accusations further, or present supporting evidence.
3. get annoyed with, and insult, people who don't agree with her.

Arguing rationally with her doesn't really bear fruit. Sorry dude.

Originally posted by senrak

"The ancients made use of torches both at marriages and funerals. They were also employed in the ceremonies of the Eleusinian mysteries.

They have been introduced in the degrees especially on the Continent, principally as marks of honor in the reception of distinguished visitors, on which occasion they are technically called 'stars'"

Do you think the use of an "eternal flame" in the Olympics has anything to do with Masonry?

Originally posted by senrak
Again, Mackey says this: "The five-pointed star, which is not to be confounded with the blazing star, is not found among the old symbols of Masonry; indeed, some writers have denied that it is a Masonic emblem at all. It is undoubtedly of recent origin, and was probably introduced by Jeremy Cross, who placed it among the plates in the emblems of the Third Degree prefixed to his Hieroglyphic Chart It is not mentioned in the ritual or the lecture of the Third Degree, but the Masons of this country have, by tacit consent, referred to it as a symbol of the Five Points of Fellowship. The outlines of the five-pointed star are the same as those of the pentalpha of Pythagoras, which was the symbol of health."

So there is no reasoning that the Star is sacred geometry and relative to the Seal of Solomon? That was used in the building of his temple?

Also may I ask you opinion on the symolism of the checkerboard floor?

[edit on 12-7-2009 by Majestic23]

Originally posted by Majestic23
Do you think the use of an "eternal flame" in the Olympics has anything to do with Masonry?

Personally, I don't think so. I think the symbolism is from the same source, but Freemasonry borrowed it too, she didn't create it.

So there is no reasoning that the Star is sacred geometry and relative to the Seal of Solomon? That was used in the building of his temple?

Could be. My point is that even though the five-pointed star appears on Masonic prints, etc. it (as a symbol) is not considered one of the emblems of Masonry like the Square, Compasses, Skirret, Level, etc. I guess what I'm saying is there is not a lecture that says "The Star is a symbol of . . . .and teaches us . . . ., etc."

Also may I ask you opinion on the symolism of the checkerboard floor?

I quoted from the ritual on this recently, but can't seem to find the link to the post. But the symbolism is that the black and white represent good and evil, prosperity and adversity in the lives of humans.

I see.

What kind of information do you recieve as the levels progross? Are you actually taught anything relating to the nature of reality or god? Is the nature of the information linear or does it concearn many topics?

Originally posted by Majestic23
What kind of information do you recieve as the levels progross?

Each degree has a set of lessons on morality, brotherhood, etc. In some degrees, the same lessons are taught in different ways, with different symbols, etc. The three Craft Degrees (Entered Apprentice, Fellow Craft and Master Mason) represent Youth, Manhood and Age, with the chief lesson of the Master Mason Degree being Mortality. The lessons are meant to impress upon our minds that we ALL will die at some point, and as believers in a life after a physical death, we should be prepared for it. Masonry doesn't guarantee salvation or "save one's soul" but it teaches believers in eternal life to live in a manner that will prepare us for that eternal life. This is where a lot of anti-Masons get confused. It's beyond them that those of us who are Christians can call ourselves Brothers with men who hold a different religious belief. We are taught that each man must follow his own conscience.

are you actually taught anything relating to the nature of reality or god? Is the nature of the information linear or does it concearn many topics?

We are. And yes, it does concern many topics. It is important to point out too that much of this is not taught in the Lodge, per se, but is available in Masonic lectures and writings (which anyone may read..so it's silly that some say our teachings are secret). This puts the teachings of the Order in the hands of anyone who is genuinely interested. And has a down-fall as well. A great number of Masons never take advantage of this and tend not to learn much about true Masonry. But, that's their choice. We don't force education upon our members, but it's available to those who desire it.

Originally posted by Roark
Minwithahole: You may have noticed by now that Suzque66's modus operandi is not to present facts, but rather to:

1. cast wild aspersions about people she doesn't like.
2. refuse to address the accusations further, or present supporting evidence.
3. get annoyed with, and insult, people who don't agree with her.

Arguing rationally with her doesn't really bear fruit. Sorry dude.

As you may have realised I have a real problem with freemasonry but my questioning, even if at times I get quite annoyed and frustrated, is always honest. When I misquote someone or mistakingly propogate a lie I always apologise. Thats why I asked her for a lead where I could find this information about ritual child abuse because if it had been true I would never have let the masons hear the last of it. Forgive me for saying this but there's enough shady areas for us to dig dirt on freemasonry without having to make things up and cause more confusion.
Lieing is bad enough but lieing about child abuse is something I would expect from only the lowest of the low. . .

reply to post by Mintwithahole.


I didn't think I would have to give examples of the thousands of pages on the subject. How could this be news to you? It is too nice outside (finally) to be searching for articles which you could have found easily. I didn't invtent the accusations of child abuse in reference to masons. The rumors have been around since before I was even born.

www.mindcontrolforums.com...

www.freemasonrywatch.org...

www.youtube.com...

freemasonrytoday.com...

***www.amazon.com...
e-torrent available.

My older brother has been a Free Mason for almost 10 years now. He is a hardworking family man who wouldn't hurt anybody. He works hellish hours going back to school as well as a County Sheriff.

WHen I found out he was a Mason I joked with him and asked "So, how often do you guys get together and slaughter lambs?"

He smiled, laughed and shook his head. He replied "No, no we don't do that."

So I asked "Ok, so what do you do then, why so secretive? What's the big secret, what do you guys do all day?"

He said."We just help each other out. If one of us or our family needs help, we help them."

Of course thats all he said....

I really can't imagine my brother doing anything malicious or wrong. He is a good person.

reply to post by suzque66


and the choice of anybody with a brain is to ask a few questions. Since these accusations are made there should of course be arrest records? no, couldn't find any of those. Lets see, how about some go old witness testimony, the kind you get with a court transcript, no, none of those either. OK, how about some good old fashioned rumors. YES! we have a plenty of those. So here you are, given the choice to either use your brain or let it turn to mush. Repeating lies multiple times doesn't make them come true. No matter how many times you try. The closest thing that has come about this subject is the Sandy Frost stuff about the Jesters getting some young hookers. I am not sure is it was proven, but the pictures were pretty convincing. At least there was proof (pictures) with that one.

Originally posted by suzque66
reply to post by Mintwithahole.

 

I didn't think I would have to give examples of the thousands of pages on the subject. How could this be news to you? It is too nice outside (finally) to be searching for articles which you could have found easily. I didn't invtent the accusations of child abuse in reference to masons. The rumors have been around since before I was even born.

www.mindcontrolforums.com...

www.freemasonrywatch.org...

www.youtube.com...

freemasonrytoday.com...

***www.amazon.com...
e-torrent available.

when you get a chance please check out some of your links. The firs two are obvious, as they are the usual www.ihatemasons.com thing, but the you tube thing never mentions masonry except in the title. I could list a you tube video claiming that Suzque66 rapes male pigmy goats. that wouldn't make it true, but it would bring you some attention. The last two are nice sites with good information. Freemasonry today is a magazine for UK masons. The amazon link is for a book about the "Secret Rituals of the O.T.O." which is not a masonic order to my knowledge. Please if you are going to pretend to be intelligent, put a bit more effort into it.

You asked for links because I said the masons have been accused of such for years. Those are the first 4 out of 35,000 that came up with keywords freemason, child abuse and accused. Any other variation would draw up similar sites. The content is less important than the general jist of it is not a new concept (this rumor). So no one has been officially convicted of these crimes, doesn't mean some people don't accuse or don't believe it.
(as 35,000 give or take sites is evidence that some even insist it occurs).

Quit obsessing, there are rumors of masons having their hands in all sorts of nefarious deeds, those topics seem to come up sporatically (in thread questions). Earlier in the thread there were accusations of murder/killing (page 17??) amoung masons upon request. The likelyhood of that occuring is as likely as within any group of fellas that are capable of conspiring (army buddies, school buddies, family members, lovers etc, etc).

The topic is the illuminati involvement in masonry, which I doubt has any bearing. Like someone mentioned pages ago, if they were illuminati then as if they would announce it to lower level masons. It takes many (likely decent guys) to keep a front of house looking legit while the poker game goes on in the back.

Originally posted by suzque66
You asked for links because I said the masons have been accused of such for years. Those are the first 4 out of 35,000 that came up with keywords freemason, child abuse and accused.

Oddly, the Google results on "rapes, male, pygmy, goats" gets 9,000 hits. Thankfully, adding the keyword Suzque66 to that list produces no results. Yet. (wait for Google to index this thread for the hilarity to ensue)

You brought up goats in the other thread didn't ya?

Methinks you are obsessed with goats. Besides how could suz do such things to a goat? eeesh I don't have the parts.

u the p-nut buttah and jelly guy!!