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We Masons are not Illuminati!!!

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posted on Jul, 8 2009 @ 11:40 AM
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reply to post by Mintwithahole.
 

the only thing that you would be uneducated about is what really happens in a lodge. And you will never know that unless you were a mason. You might have taken offence to a comment that was meant that way. But to compare a guy in the US, In the South, in 1890, because he was racist by todays standards, with Hitler who killed millions of people, is a bit off. Like comparing Jeffry Dahmer to Wynona Rider. (Dahmer killed and ate people and Rider got caught shoplifting) Not that I think racism is at all good or right. I guess I just am curious to know what you think we as mason should do or say about Pike other than that which has already been said.

Mel Gibson is known to be anti-semitic, but I still enjoyed some of his movies. I don't have to marry the guy to enjoy some of his work.




posted on Jul, 8 2009 @ 11:42 AM
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Originally posted by Mintwithahole.
reply to post by network dude
 

I just don't agree. It would be like forgiving Hitler for murdering millions of jews and starting WW2 because he gave us the Volkswagon Beetle and autobahns! I was specifically refering to Pikes racism, nothing more ,nothing less, and I wanted to know how masons felt about it.


Mint,

You want to try the man in the court of revisionism. If we judge all writing and writers of the past through the narrow lens of what you find acceptable today, who survives unscathed? And quit over-reaching with your Hitler analogy. It only cheapens your argument.



posted on Jul, 8 2009 @ 11:53 AM
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Next time start the title in reverse order 'We Illuminati are not Masons,' and see what results you get.



posted on Jul, 8 2009 @ 12:12 PM
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reply to post by menguard
 



That would be intresting "We Illuminati are not Masons", dunno if anybody would own up to being Illuminati tho.


As far as Pike gos i'v heard both versions that he was a good man and that he a was evil man, that documentary that i offered a link too dosen't show Masons in that good of light, so who knows, it is good what they do for sick children but there are some occult aspects to Masonry.



posted on Jul, 8 2009 @ 12:23 PM
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Originally posted by King Seesar
...there are some occult aspects to Masonry.


There are occult aspects of Masonry, namely the ritual, but occult does not equal evil. Occult means hidden, as in esoteric.



posted on Jul, 8 2009 @ 12:55 PM
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Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus

Originally posted by King Seesar
...there are some occult aspects to Masonry.


There are occult aspects of Masonry, namely the ritual, but occult does not equal evil. Occult means hidden, as in esoteric.


Well the catholic church for one would give you a good argument. Also, what constitutes evil. . ? To me a cult masquerading as a religion is something to be weary of especially when it claims to worship the same god as the christian faith. But to get back to the whole Illuminati thing. The Illuminati are the illuminated ones while the freemasons are always searching for light! You could argue that as the masons climb through the degrees gaining more light once they reach the top they would indeed be illuminated and become part of the illuminated ones, the Illuminati. . .



posted on Jul, 8 2009 @ 01:15 PM
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reply to post by Fitzgibbon
 

Maybe you're right. The Hitler analogy may of been a bit too far but you get my point. I was asking about one tiny part of masonry, namely Pikes racist views and instead of an answer I received posts detailing what a good job he had done for masonry etc.
Thats not what I asked. . .



posted on Jul, 8 2009 @ 01:19 PM
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Originally posted by Mintwithahole.]

Well the catholic church for one would give you a good argument. Also, what constitutes evil. . ? To me a cult masquerading as a religion is something to be weary of especially when it claims to worship the same god as the christian faith. But to get back to the whole Illuminati thing. The Illuminati are the illuminated ones while the freemasons are always searching for light! You could argue that as the masons climb through the degrees gaining more light once they reach the top they would indeed be illuminated and become part of the illuminated ones, the Illuminati. . .


so what about that is bad or evil? I still have a hard time with the whole Illuminati thing since there is no real proof of any such group in todays time, but even if there is such a thing, what about them is bad? And for that matter what about searching for more light is a bad thing? I kind of thought all of us here were doing that on a daily basis. Masons just have a cool name for it.

But about the Catholic church, I think there is more dirt under their rug an there ever was in masonry. And wars continue to be fought over religion.

And the "cult" as you say doesn't claim to be any kind of religion. It's open to any belief in a supream being. I fail to see why that is such a difficult thing to get across.



posted on Jul, 8 2009 @ 01:28 PM
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reply to post by network dude
 


Well, if you're not a religion how come you say prayers, have rituals of initiation and funeral services and believe in salvation etc? Surely these are all requirements of a religion? Okay, its not christian but it is a religion?



posted on Jul, 8 2009 @ 01:42 PM
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reply to post by network dude
 


The problem with the Illuminati is they split people and cause them to become MPD(multiple personality disorder), as part of there so called path to Illumination, not to mention all the other evil stuff that the Illuminati does.

Do me a favor and check out this website and do some investigating of your own, it's a very resourceful website with lots of info....

pseudoccultmedia.blogspot.com...



posted on Jul, 8 2009 @ 01:53 PM
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Originally posted by Mintwithahole.
reply to post by network dude
 


Well, if you're not a religion how come you say prayers, have rituals of initiation and funeral services and believe in salvation etc? Surely these are all requirements of a religion? Okay, its not christian but it is a religion?


Care to cite where all Masons believe in salvation? Or that there's a "funeral service"? And why what exactly about initiation equals religion and how initiation rites into groups aside from Masonry does not make those groups likewise religions?

Here's one for you. If it's a religion, what's the name object of Masonic veneration. Explain how it is that if it's a religion, Masons simultaneously remain open and active followers of other major religions? Detail more about this Masonic "religion" as you put it.

Be thorough. Be complete. Don't leave any aspect of your obvious 'knowledge' of this religion out.

[edit on 8-7-2009 by Fitzgibbon]



posted on Jul, 8 2009 @ 01:57 PM
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Originally posted by Mintwithahole.
reply to post by Fitzgibbon
 

Maybe you're right. The Hitler analogy may of been a bit too far but you get my point. I was asking about one tiny part of masonry, namely Pikes racist views and instead of an answer I received posts detailing what a good job he had done for masonry etc.
Thats not what I asked. . .



You're focusing on one negative facet of a man who did some remarkable things in his life.
In comparison; "Yes, Winston Churchill was a great leader during WWII, but he was a racist and a drunk so therefore should be ignored."



Well, if you're not a religion how come you say prayers, have rituals of initiation and funeral services and believe in salvation etc? Surely these are all requirements of a religion? Okay, its not christian but it is a religion?


My karate studio offers up prayers at the beginning of every tournament, and also has a initiation ceremony.
Many different organizations offer funeral services.
As for believing in Salvation... it's not part of Freemasonry, but instead reliant on the Mason's own faith.


Yeesh, I took two days off for my birthday, and still y'all are talking the same wind.


[edit on 8-7-2009 by RuneSpider]



posted on Jul, 8 2009 @ 01:58 PM
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Originally posted by Mintwithahole.
reply to post by network dude
 


Well, if you're not a religion how come you say prayers, have rituals of initiation and funeral services and believe in salvation etc? Surely these are all requirements of a religion? Okay, its not christian but it is a religion?



We say an opening prayer and a closing prayer. We also do a closing charge.(which is kind of like a prayer) But I say a prayer before I eat a meal. that doesn't make my steak religious.(although the last one was damn good) The funeral services go along with the whole reason masonry exists. The apron is a gift to an entered apprentice. The lecture of an entered apprentice(which i don't know yet) says that it should be worn with pride and upon your death it will be placed upon your coffin. (or to that affect) It is a part of who a mason is. Not inherently religious, just a part of our customs. We believe that when you leave this earth there is another journey that you go on. This life is just a small part of the whole. I like that, and it makes me not fear death at all. Now you don't have to believe anything that you are taught in masonry, but then again if you didn't like what was said, you probably wouldn't show up to the meetings.

It is not a religion, but it is religious so to speak. Since I personally hate organized religion due to the fact that it is intolerant of other beliefs, I find the system of belief in masonry fits me very well. So I kind of treat it like my version of religion. But that is a personal choice for me. It is not the whole of masonry. there are a few preachers in my lodge. They have their own religion. And I assume they are happy with that.

If you walk into a town looking for a beautiful place to rest, you will find beauty wherever you look. But if you walk into a town with the preconceived notion that it is a horrible place, you might not see anything but bad stuff. It's the same town, just seen through other eyes. Most people will find exactly what they are looking for. Just make sure you know what that is.



posted on Jul, 8 2009 @ 02:20 PM
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reply to post by network dude
 

Well that makes sense. You say that you treat freemasonry as your type of religion! Maybe thats why organised religion hates you so much, because you are at odds with christianity. I read somewhere that no mason could ever consider himself a christian and after reading your words I think I understand. I dont agree with it but I do partially get what you're getting at.



posted on Jul, 8 2009 @ 02:30 PM
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reply to post by Mintwithahole.
 


I am not sure that all organized religion hates freemasonry. Even the Catholics are a bit more tolerant to the idea now. I do think they don't like what they can't control. And the free thinking ideas of masonry is a breeding ground for someone to disagree with a point or two in any rigid testament. As I said, some folks are happy being baptist, or Islamic, or whatever they chose to be. And can still coincide with masonry. The funny thing is that quite a few of the masons I interact with here have kind of the same outlook on religions as me. It must be the conspiracy nature in us. Not being afraid to ask the tough questions. Anyway, I have to go do a bit of work so I keep up the appearance of having a job.



posted on Jul, 8 2009 @ 02:31 PM
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Originally posted by Mintwithahole.
reply to post by network dude
 

Well that makes sense. You say that you treat freemasonry as your type of religion! Maybe thats why organised religion hates you so much, because you are at odds with christianity. I read somewhere that no mason could ever consider himself a christian and after reading your words I think I understand. I dont agree with it but I do partially get what you're getting at.


Masonry is an adjunct to one's religion, not a replacement. That's why brethren of Christian (of all flavours), Jewish, Muslim, Sikh and other religions can sit in-lodge, hear the same thing and apply it equally to their own religions without there being a 'my religion's the true religion' beef.

Masonry looks to bring men of good faith together by way of their commonalities, not divide them because of differences.



posted on Jul, 8 2009 @ 02:41 PM
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reply to post by Mintwithahole.
 


I think the main issue devout Christians might have with a prayer during a Masonic meeting is that we don't mention Christ. Some Christians feel that ALL prayer must be to Christ or through Christ (in Christ's name) to God. I don't think all Christians feel this way, and in your heart and mind, if you're praying to Christ when you listen to the prayer being spoken, I think that's fine. There are people who become offended by the lack of Christ's name in the Blue Lodge works though.

That said, there are more groups with the requirement that members A: Must be Christian, and B: Must me Masons than groups with the requirement that members be Mason and any other particular religion. I can think of at least a half dozen organizations for Christian Masons. I don't know of any that have been created for Jewish Masons or Muslim Masons or Pagan Masons.



posted on Jul, 8 2009 @ 02:49 PM
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reply to post by Fitzgibbon
 


But freemasonry is at odds with christianity! The twp are incompatible. . .
Henry Wilson Coil in Coils Masonic Encyclopedia writes;

"The views of the masonic religion are in open conflict with biblical christianity, so much so that in our opinion a knowledgable and committed mason could not possibly be a true christian."

In The Higher Degree Handbook, page 25, written by JSM Ward, a 33rd degree mason and historian, writes;

"A considerable amount of excision was necessitated by the alteration of the clause in the masonic constitution which changed masonry from a christian to a non-christian basis."

He goes on to say how anything christian was eliminated. . .

So maybe you are breaking some masonic law taking your christian laws into the lodge?



posted on Jul, 8 2009 @ 02:50 PM
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You have a cause and a purpose that you believe is helpful and charitable to mankind. It gets you out of the house, into a group setting of like-minded brothers, practice memorizing rituals and striving for the next step up the ladder.

What you don't realize is that your symbolism, rituals and practices are derived from pagan practices.

My father was also a grand poo-bah having been a Mason for most of his adult life. My husband is a ustawuzzer. Both of these guys are very, very good men with good hearts.

But the fact remains, no matter how much you don't want it to be so, it is a secret society founded on pagan rituals, symbols and ideology.

Just think a second. You've been fooled. Your most basic goodness has been exploited and I'd think that fact would make any Mason question the entire set up. You are all being used in a very sick, twisted way.

Eastern Star ring any bells for you pagans out there?



posted on Jul, 8 2009 @ 02:53 PM
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reply to post by Hazelnut
 


what did you get for Christmas last year. Just name one gift. the one that really made you happy.

edit to add:I thought you would be right back to answer but since you are not, I will tell you where I was going with that. Christmas as a whole is founded on a pagan idea. The tree thing, yea pagan. But we still enjoy that time of year. That doesn't make it bad. But who is any individual to decide what I believe is good? As long as my ways fit in with society (meaning I don't go around killing people and breaking the law) then what I personally believe masonry is all about is of no concern to anyone else. If I thought it was a mockery of my religion, I would not be a member. If it was no longer fulfilling to my soul, I would quit. But since it is what I like I will remain a mason. Even it someone thinks it is a bad idea. God made us each with a brain of our own. I choose to use mine to make my own decisions.

[edit on 8-7-2009 by network dude]



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