I give up! How are people like me who are puzzled by the freemasons ever going to get honest answers to our questions when you all can't agree with each other? Ask about Pikes open racism you get egotistical masons saying, well he was racist, no he wasn't racist, well he was but wasn't everyone!!! Ask about the secrecy and the masonic ego's go into overdrive because they think they know it all. How dare anyone even contimplate the idea of them, the high and mighty freemasons, not being told the whole truth about this, what I am now beginning to understand is a, cult.
Anyone who reads the last few pages will see that if you ask a difficult question there is two masonic answers.
1. They try to come across as all sweetness and light.
2. They try to bamboozle you with an answer to a question which you never asked in the first place!

Seriously, if the masons ever had need of a good PR man you lot need not apply. With you representing the masons they would all end up burnt at the stake like some sixteenth century witch. Honestly, you're doing the brotherhood more harm than good. . .
Many times I've heard this mantra; They try to make a good man better! I fear you have been told you are better so many times by your own brethren that you are now beginning to believe it. . .

Originally posted by Mintwithahole.
I give up! How are people like me who are puzzled by the freemasons ever going to get honest answers to our questions when you all can't agree with each other?
...
Seriously, if the masons ever had need of a good PR man you lot need not apply.

We're all individuals with our own opinions, which is why they're all different. (So much for those who claim we're brainwashed... clearly we disagree on any number of things, but amongst each other we try to keep such disagreements agreeable. Almost like Unitarians in that regard, I'd wager.) None of us has or will ever claim to speak for Masonry. We can only offer our own experiences, opinions and interpretations, and that's all any of us has done in this thread or elsewhere on ATS.

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus
Just to clear up, I, being of Italian ancestry, was raised to follow two doctrines, that of Roman Catholicism and to obtain all necessary major appliances by having them fortuitously fall off the back of a truck.

I have since abandoned both of these ways of life and now only believe in God in more of a Deist sense and purchase my appliances at Home Depot.

Similarly, I'm Discordian for most purposes and Deist for others. (I don't think Eris created the world, I think she just helped screw it all up, and I've embrace the chaos...)

Originally posted by Sparkey76
Truth for fellow brothers right?

knowledge hoarded is no knowledge at all.

Truth as in honesty.

Originally posted by JoshNorton
We're all individuals with our own opinions, which is why they're all different. (So much for those who claim we're brainwashed... clearly we disagree on any number of things, but amongst each other we try to keep such disagreements agreeable. Almost like Unitarians in that regard, I'd wager.) None of us has or will ever claim to speak for Masonry. We can only offer our own experiences, opinions and interpretations, and that's all any of us has done in this thread or elsewhere on ATS.

I was just about to say almost the same thing. Maybe we are brainwashed.

Mint, I have my opinions because of what I have learned in life. What I have researched. Masonry teaches us the lessons we already know but it teaches them in a different way. It helps us to be better people because we remind ourselves of that which is the correct way to live. It makes me think of my obligations before I make any decisions. I don't speak for masonry. I speak for Mike. I believe in the teachings of masonry because they are exactly what I have told you they are. I am pretty sure no mason here intentionally tried to be egotistical in his response. It is just hard to answer the same question so many different ways. ( you did ask it in a few different ways.) For me to answer why a Satanist would be incompatible with masonry is something I cannot put into words. You would have to understand the teachings of masonry to see why. I hate to put it that way but I don't know how else to put it. Just please don't associate any answers you get here as "ALL of masonry". It's teachings are black and white. They have been virtually the same for decades. How they are intereperted changes with the times.(IMHO)

Originally posted by Mintwithahole.

Anyone who reads the last few pages will see that if you ask a difficult question there is two masonic answers.
1. They try to come across as all sweetness and light.
2. They try to bamboozle you with an answer to a question which you never asked in the first place.

I have been in a particular lodge, and I didnt know it at the time but you guys look to the East for the light , right?

now a lodge ive been in had its alter at the West end of the buildings! now I would interpret that as looking into the darkness! right or wrong?

You mean something like this?

I have asked this question in a few threads on a masonic thread and simply get ignored.

Now I swear on my life and my family's, I have been in a particular lodge, by chance and have seen inside it.

Alter to the West, ( not east, where the light comes from or centre like its supposed to be)
Human skull and bones underneath one of the seats to the right of the hall.

Ive seen wierd rituals when I served them drinks downstairs in function room, (laughable really) A pigs head being carried out and singing as it comes out.

I have seen other stuff too but I aint posting about what I read in a big book.

Originally posted by Mintwithahole.
But surely if you are all learning the same masonic laws and lessons your answers should all fall, at least, in the same ballpark! For your answers to be so conflicting is amazing. . .

We are taught to be individuals and think for ourselves. Masonry doesn't tell us how or what to think.

As for the "laws and lessons" while the lessons are basically the same, the ritual itself varies (sometimes greatly) from State to State in the U.S. and even more so in other countries. The rituals that are used in Canada and Great Britain are VERY different than those used in Virginia. I belong in both Kentucky and Missouri and the ritual in those two states is quite different in places, although, again, the lessons are similar.

The Laws are vastly different from Jurisdiction to Jurisdiction because they were written for the needs of different people in different places. There is NO group that governs all Masons around the Globe. Each Grand Lodge is autonomous, and the Grand Master, bound by the laws of his Grand Lodge, has the final say in his jurisdiction. Period.

The reason I pushed for an answer about the satanist issue was purely down to the fact that I was receiving so many different answers from you masons.

I would submit to you that a practicing Satanist could not become a Mason. (I'd sure question the members who'd let one in) Mainly because (as said before) Typically Satanists see Satan as a rival of God. Black Masses are a mockery of Christianity. They do not look upon Satan as the Creator of the world. Masonic membership requires believe in a monotheistic God, Creator of all. Additionally the rituals and lessons of morality come from the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament if you prefer that term) of the Bible. Most Satanists wouldn't be overly interested in Bible Study.

Masons also love to waffle on! Why give a one sentence answer when two paragraphs of details not relating to the original question will do just as well.

We get paid for this stuff by the character, not by the sentence.

Its the wriggling around on the end of a hook when the questioning gets tough which makes me suspect that there may be more to freemasonry and that some of the allegations forwarded against the group may have some basis in fact.

We're not the ones who made you mistrusting.

But I do think Masons have a problem with race. Another recent thread here on ATS details how Georgia masons wont let a black guy join. . .

That's a very sad incident in Georgia that will be handled by the Grand Lodge of Georgia, whose jurisdiction it is. You're awfully brazen to suggest that ALL Masons are racists, because that's what you're suggesting. I regularly attend Lodge with men of several races. Additionally my two sons are adopted from Guatemala, so if you're going to suggest that I'm a racist, you'd better back off and regroup.

I also think the freemasons are a breeding ground for the NWO or Iluminati.

{yawn}

You attract top businessmen, Politicians, bankers and future influential people into your ranks,

Hmmm. People who are leaders in their communities. People who are active in what's going on around them. People who stand out among the rest, becoming active in an organization that's active in the communities. What is surprising about that?

and prepare them to do the right thing for when the elite come a calling.

Who are the "elite" and what are they going to come calling FOR?

As for other masons, like your good self and the others on here, I think you wont be told whats going on further up the line because you're not important enough to be involved.

Yeah, we're simpletons who know nothing about the organization to which we've given so much time and study.

And I don't mean that in an insulting way.

Well it's insulting as hell, nonetheless.

Your role is to keep the lodges open and recruit more people who may be of benefit to the elite in the future.

When did the "elite" tell you this? If they didn't, how are you so cocksure about it?

The question then becomes not whether masons are evil or not because I dont really think you are. The question now is have masons ever suspected that there best, most influential and richest members are being cherry picked by the elite?

Cherry picked to do what? Run the NWO or the Illuminati? I'm glad this is conspiracy forum and this is the kind of nonsense that's expected here.

[edit on 5-7-2009 by senrak]

Originally posted by RuneSpider

Similarly, I'm Discordian for most purposes and Deist for others. (I don't think Eris created the world, I think she just helped screw it all up, and I've embrace the chaos...)

Duly noted, I believe I remember you talking about working on some new Age style projects, but couldn't be sure. My apologies.

I don't exactly fit the mould of Neo-Pagan, though many of my friends are. I've had good success with dowsing rods & tarot cards. I've also sung latin choral works as part of Christian masses in cathedrals across the US and the UK. I've been exposed to quite a bit but follow my own path. I've studied Tim Leary & R.A. Wilson (and met them both on the lecture circuit) and if push came to shove, could be classified a practitioner of Chaos Magick in various and assorted definitions thereof. My witch friends all hold me in high regard, but I don't take much interest in their rituals or trappings as such... a general personal distaste for organized religion regardless of its form or flavor. *shrug*

Originally posted by Mintwithahole.
You twist, you turn but you dont give answers- at least not the answers to the questions we ask.

Funny, considering you did not answer any of the questions I asked in my last post responding to you in which I answered your questions. As a matter of fact you said you were 'giving up'. I guess answering questions is too bothersome a task for you to undertake.

Mintwithahole:

You've got a real nerve coming onto this forum and claiming that you want answers when you're clearly just here to serve an anti-Masonic agenda. Various people (non-Mason and Mason alike) have tried to provide you with a ream of information from their own knowledge and perspective, and all you can do is whine about how not everyone's opinion is the same.

Well, all I can say is: bad luck, kiddo.

If you want to harp on about Satanism, go for it. Freemasonry doesn't concern itself with Satanism, no matter how hard you try to connect the two.

You're quite free in casting weak, ad hominem aspersions about how "cock-sure" Freemasons are, and similar generalisations and character judgements, but all it does is detract from any actual arguments you may have.

Get your act together, mate.

Roark (a non-Mason)

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus

Originally posted by Mintwithahole.
You twist, you turn but you dont give answers- at least not the answers to the questions we ask.

Funny, considering you did not answer any of the questions I asked in my last post responding to you in which I answered your questions. As a matter of fact you said you were 'giving up'. I guess answering questions is too bothersome a task for you to undertake.

But I'm not here to answer questions. You may have forgotten but this thread is entitled, Masons aren't the Illuminati. We're not the Illuminati you proudly boast and when people say, Oh yes you are, you all form a circle, slap each other on the back and give answers to questions which nobody asked you!! Its pathetic. Like you say, answering questions is too bothersome a task for you to undertake. Why not use the time instead to congratulate your fellow masons on how great they are and show us all what a great grasping of the English language you have.
Very confusing but perhaps I should have expected as much from people who wear aprons but don't cook and who wear gloves indoors. . .