The largest tax increase in American history under the guise of climate change has passed., page 7

reply to post by Sheeper

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I am not exactly sure how you perceive this as being a "slave tax", unless of course you are of the crowd that believes we are all slaves to the mighty PTB which are hiding behind that great big veil of secrecy. If that is the case, then it doesn't matter what the government does, because you will disagree with ANY and ALL changes made, because it somehow represses us further as slaves. I can only imagine how pieceful life is with an outlook such as that.


reply to post by ElectricUniverse

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Originally posted by ElectricUniverse
reply to post by xmaddness

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..snip..
This sort of bill is not going to help anyone....

President Obama has promised that 600,000 jobs will be saved, yet we have been losing 500,000 + jobs every month for several months.

The current administration is only creating cheap labour. They want for Americans to do MANDATORY Community Service WITHOUT PAY = SLAVERY...
[edit on 27-6-2009 by ElectricUniverse]

This bill will create jobs. If this bill does not go through, then it will create zero jobs. What is better? Some jobs created, or zero jobs created? According to your estimate, 500,000 jobs a month being lost will continue whether this bill goes through or not. The fact that if this bill passes will create jobs is a good thing.

Also on your notion of doing community service as being slavery. I seriously would love to transplant you to the times of Egyptian or African American slavery. Work as a slave for a year in their shoes, and then talk to me about how doing a few hours of community service compares to true slavery. That comment alone is a slap in the face of the people who were truly "slaves".

God forbid we actually do something to help out each other in times of need.

reply to post by seasoul

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I have read and know of Tesla. Truly a great thinker that was way ahead of his time. History is filled with great thinkers who were repressed for their seemingly "forbidden" knowledge or heretical thinking. Telsa's ideas are being revisited however by many in the academic fields and by many in the private sector. This also reinforces the exact reasoning of why I believe this kind of measure is needed. It is going to pave the way for having to think of new ways of dealing with energy on a large scale. This will lead to new technological discoveries, which will in turn pave the way for cheaper energy in the long term. We cannot continue to rely on the oil producing nations for energy. Oil WILL reach a dead end eventually. That is a fact.


reply to post by aravoth

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Originally posted by aravoth
reply to post by xmaddness

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..snip..

How much revenue is created by fossil fuels? The government will never let go of that, they just added another tax on top of it.

Shortsightedness indeed, tell it to the people who are going to freeze to death next winter, or tell it to the people that'll start starving to death because they can't afford to eat.

The governments of the world will have to let it go once it runs out. There is a limited supply and it will eventually come to an end. What then?

To the people that are going to freeze? I hate to remind you of this, but all around the world people have been and will continue to die due to lack of basic needs. Any bill that the US passes is not going to change that.

reply to post by wutone

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Originally posted by wutone
reply to post by xmaddness

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No I just don't like fat cats (like AL Gore) pushing new taxes and restrictions on us to "save the planet" while they themselves spew tons of CO2 with their private airplanes and huge mansions.

I am all for renewable energy but the technology has to work.

I could not agree more. If you notice, I do not say anything about the environmental impact that this is supposed to "cure". I am not concerned with that at the moment because there are conflicting arguments on whether this will or will not have any effect on our climate. The only way for the technology to "work" is to invest in the research and development of this technology, which this bill will force.

Let's read some more and see how much warmer today is to periods of Climate Change when atmospheric CO2 levels DID NOT CHANGE MUCH...

Title:
Late Holocene Environmental and Hydrologic Conditions in Northwestern Florida Derived from Seasonally Resolved Profiles of δ18O and Sr/Ca of Fossil Bivalves.
Authors:
Elliot, M.; de Menocal, P. B.; Linsley, B. K.; Howe, S. S.; Guilderson, T.; Quitmyer, I. R.
Affiliation:
AA(Edinburgh University, Dept. Geology and Geophysics, West Mains Road, Edinburgh, EH9 3JW United Kingdom ; mary@ldeo.columbia.edu), AB(Lamont Doherty Earth Observatory, Route 9W, Palisades, NY 10964 ; peter@ldeo.columbia.edu), AC(University at Albany, 1400 Washington Ave, Albany, NY 12222 ; blinsley@ldeo.columbia.edu), AD(Laurence Livermore National Laboratory, 7000 East Ave, Livermore, CA 94550 ; showe@csc.albany.edu), AE(Laurence Livermore National Laboratory, 7000 East Ave, Livermore, CA 94550 ; ), AF(Florida Museum of Natural History, Dickinson Hall, Gainesville, FL 32611 ; )
Publication:
American Geophysical Union, Fall Meeting 2002, abstract #PP72A-0429
Publication Date:
12/2002
Origin:
AGU
AGU Keywords:
3344 Paleoclimatology, 4215 Climate and interannual variability (3309), 4227 Diurnal, seasonal, and annual cycles, 4870 Stable isotopes, 4875 Trace elements
Bibliographic Code:
2002AGUFMPP72A0429E

Abstract
We reconstruct environmental conditions of coastal Northwestern Florida from combined measurements of δ18O and Sr/Ca of fossil marine bivalves deposited in an archeological site during the late Holocene period. We first investigated the environmental controls of seasonally resolved records of δ18O and Sr/Ca of modern Mercenaria mercenaria and Mercenaria campesiensis collected live from five coastal sites along the east coast of North America. Seasonal profiles were obtained by sub-sampling the incremental growth layers of aragonite and were compared with in situ historical records of temperature and salinity. We show that these bivalves precipitate their shell in isotopic equilibrium with the water in which they grew and that the δ18O records are not affected by variations in growth rate. Winter growth appears to be interrupted or strongly reduced below water temperatures ranging from 7 to 18° C, depending on latitude. The annual average δ18O decreases with latitude, reflecting both the parallel trend of freshwater δ18O with latitude over the North American continent and the reduced winter growth rate. The Sr/Ca records of the 5 modern bivalves also exhibit seasonal variations can be correlated to water temperature. However, contrary to corals, the Sr/Ca ratio is considerably lower than the average sea water Sr/Ca composition and is positively correlated to the water temperature. We dated and measured the δ18O and Sr/Ca of 30 fossil M. campesiensis from an archeological site close to Cedar Key, in the Gulf of Mexico. Accelerator Mass Spectrometry 14C dates obtained for each shell show ages which cluster between 1100 to 1400 and 2300 to 2600 14C years BP corresponding approximately to two historical warm periods known as the Medieval Warm Period (~ 1300-900AD) and the Roman Warm Period (~ 250AD-200BC). The average annual and summer Sr/Ca of 4 fossil shells are higher than that of modern bivalves from the same location suggesting that annual coastal water temperatures were 3 to 4° C warmer than today. The bulk δ18O values show a marked trend towards more positive values. 24 fossil shells have bulk δ18O values 0.2\permil to 0.7\permil more positive than modern bivalves from the same location. These results suggest that the coastal waters off northwest Florida were warmer and less saline compared to today and attest of considerable differences of the regional climate and hydrological balance during the Medieval Warm Period and Roman Warm Period.

adsabs.harvard.edu...

Ok, so what are scientists actually saying about the current Climate Change, and the cause of the past warming?...

The following is a whoopsie bit of information that got out from NASA in 2005.

Current warmth seems to be occurring nearly everywhere at the same time and is largest at high latitudes in the Northern Hemisphere. Over the last 50 years, the largest annual and seasonal warmings have occurred in Alaska, Siberia and the Antarctic Peninsula. Most ocean areas have warmed. Because these areas are remote and far away from major cities, it is clear to climatologists that the warming is not due to the influence of pollution from urban areas.

www.nasa.gov...

You have to scroll to the bottom of the above link to see the excerpt.

But hey, Let's see what some of the possible causes could be heh?

Science News

Antarctic Science (2003), 15:2:173-173 Cambridge University Press
Copyright © Antarctic Science Ltd 2003
doi:10.1017/S0954102003001305
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Editorial

Galactic energy and its role in a changing Earth

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ALAN P.M. VAUGHAN


Proposed climate change mechanisms are many and various but generally attributable to our part of the solar system. They usually focus on temperature changes driven either by local processes such as variations in oceanic circulation, or, levels of atmospheric greenhouse gases such as carbon dioxide, or by global processes such as variations in received solar energy linked to changes in the parameters of the Earth's rotation and orbit or solar activity. However, two recent papers have suggested that we may need to look outside the Earth System and even outside our local planetary system for the possible origins of climate change, both on a decadal scale and over longer timescales of hundreds of millions of years. In each case, the galactic cosmic ray flux and its potential effects on cloud formation is considered to be the culprit.

journals.cambridge.org...;jsessionid=3CAA761B83219AEF5DE3388DC7918C64.tomcat1?fromPage=online&aid=151715

Copyright © 2005 Elsevier B.V. All rights reserved.
Asian monsoon oscillations in the northeastern Qinghai–Tibet Plateau since the late glacial as interpreted from visible reflectance of Qinghai Lake sediments

Junfeng Jia, , , Ji Shenb, 1, , William Balsamc, 2, , Jun Chena, 3, , Lianwen Liua, 4, and Xingqi Liub, 5,

aState Key Laboratory of Mineral Deposit Research, Institute of Surficial Geochemistry, Department of Earth Sciences, Nanjing University, Nanjing 210093, China

bKey Laboratory of Lake Sedimentation and Environment, Nanjing Institute of Geography and Limnology, Chinese Academy of Sciences, Nanjing 210008, China

cDepartment of Geology, University of Texas at Arlington, Arlington, TX 76019, USA


Received 28 July 2004; revised 28 January 2005; accepted 15 February 2005. Editor: E. Boyle. Available online 1 April 2005.

Abstract
Qinghai Lake is a large saline lake on the Qinghai–Tibetan Plateau of central Asia that is effected by both the Indian and Asian monsoons. We used reflectance spectroscopy to characterize the sediments in a 795-cm long core taken from the southeastern part of the lake. Sediment redness, which is related to iron oxide content, seems to monitor paleoclimatic changes in the core. Iron oxides appear to be eroded from nearby red beds or loess deposits and are transported by fluvial means into the lake. Thus, redness increases at times of increased precipitation, that is, as monsoon strength increases. Our redness monsoon proxy shows climate changes on several times scales. On a millennial scale, it records humid conditions during the Early and Mid-Holocene. From about 4200 to 2300 yr BP, low redness values suggest a two-millennial long dry period, which in the Late Holocene is followed by a more humid period. On a centennial scale, the redness proxy records not only the Little Ice Age, but also the Medieval Warm Period, the Dark Ages Cool Period and the Roman Warm Period. Time series analysis of the redness record indicates a 200 yr frequency, which corresponds to the de Vries solar cycle suggesting that, in addition to insolation changes resulting from orbital variations, solar forcing also results from cyclic changes in the suns luminosity.

Keywords: Asian monsoon; diffuse reflectance spectrophotometry; Qinghai Lake; sediment redness; iron oxides; solar forcing

www.sciencedirect.com

reply to post by ElectricUniverse

---

Right on ElectricUniverse!

I often wonder if any of these Ice Age / Global Warming / Climate Change fanatics have ever read a book about the Earth's history?

For those that aren't aware: the Earth's environment has changed constantly since the day it was formed. It has been hot, cold, dry, wet, and every admixture in-between. The Earth's climate is NOT static! It changes continuously and sometimes dramatically. Look it up - it's a fact. And its been doing that with or without people.

The idea of increasing taxes to thwart climate change is akin to the idea of throwing virgins into a volcano to prevent it from erupting.

reply to post by xmaddness

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You are completely missing the point.

Nearly everyone agrees we need to get off of fossil fuels if we can. Some want to get off them so we are not dependent on arab countries, some because they fear polluting the Earth.

This is not about pollution, this is about the path we take to new forms of energy.

We are already moving as fast as we can towards new forms of energy, solar, biofuels, energy storage, the smart grid these are the companies with the highest valuations and attracting the most venture capital in the stock market. If you are paying attention at all you would also notice nearly every car manufacturer is moving as fast as they can towards plug in electric hybrids already, even though they are really still too expensive for most consumers.

If you support this bill you are in favor of the government telling everyone what forms of alt energy to use, when to use it and how much to pay. When has giving the government more power, and setting up more red tape ever been a good idea?

Have you ever heard the phrase you can attract more bees with honey than vinegar? If you really support government involvement, a much better way to get change is tax breaks, and incentives.

Don't you see the reason that congress was not allowed to read or didn't want to read this bill is due to the fact it is not in the peoples best interests, but instead was in the interests of the 2000+ lobbyists?



[edit on 27-6-2009 by proximo]

reply to post by ravenshadow13

---

I don't care how much "research" you have done, the evidence of real scientist proves there is no man made connection to "Climate Change". I'm more inclined to believe the evidence posted by ElectricUniveres. I have never known a Climate Change scientist who didn't have an ..... agenda.

reply to post by Etsivä Romppainen

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Really tell me what country is following the global warming restrictions right now after the sign the Kyoto.

Just show me what they are doing about the global warming beside promising compliant I challenge you.

Is a fraud.

The Kyoto protocol is nothing that a hype to make believe that nations cares while the US were tagged with the price of it.

That is why the US stayed away from it.

But now our own profiters are going to find ways to profit from the American citizens here in the US.

So are you going to show what other nations are doing?

Specially China and India.

Or do you actually believe that global warming and pollution can be measured, sold and transfered.

Is a scam get it is nothing but a scam

Just because countries are signing the Kyoto protocol nobody can tell for sure how much pollution nations actually emit or how much they control because is a hoax.

Is nothing that a scam a fraud to make money.

reply to post by Rockpuck

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Is the biggest scam running in the world right now and people still swallow the rhetoric.

The earth is getting warmer and that is nothing that we can do about it the same way that our ancestors could about it when the last ice age hit them.

People really needs to get educated with earth natural cycles.

All this global warming hoax is for some dirty rats to profit while they can at the expenses of nations.

Pitiful.

Originally posted by ravenshadow13
reply to post by ElectricUniverse

---

I'm actually a Human Ecology major come the fall and I'm spent the past four years studying primarily the sciences. I've done tons of research, you can go look at some of my threads.

Honestly even if it's not Global Warming you can't deny that some climate change is happening because of us. Even just pollution and deforestation which has nothing to do with CO2.

We should be increasing taxes for this. We should get rid of our dependence on oil. No matter what, that has to happen.

You pay attention to the research you want to believe. So do I. But I'd rather be safe than sorry. And I'm a liberal, I don't trust businesses and people to begin with, and I'd rather trust the government to regulate all the greedy money makers in business and take my chances with the people in government.

[edit on 6/27/2009 by ravenshadow13]

Well, I'm a philosophy student. Please explain how raising taxes helps the environment. Don't be fooled by the rhetoric, this bill is not about saving the earth, this bill is about power power. It's about the expansion of the federal government, the expansion of centralized power. Our "leaders" believe they know better than the individual, and that's what it comes down to.

You do know that there are charities that provide more help to people actually in need than the government ever could dream to help, yet they get rid of the incentives to give to charity. Why? Because the federal government wishes to be the avenue for those in need to go to. They want us to be totally dependent on them. Why? Because once we are totally dependent on them, they own us.

As it stands now, the majority of Americans work from January Through June, not for their family, not for themselves or the causes they believe in or support, but for the federal government. That's half your time, and in many cases more than half an individuals time, our most precious commodity. If people had more of their time, they would spend more of it helping people and the issues they deem important. Many many studies show that with more wealth an individual has, comes more and more charity. If you had more time, I would bet that you would spend more of it cleaning beaches or supporting PRIVATE organizations that help to clean the environment. Honestly, more good would come from people having the ability to spend more of their own money and time helping the causes that are near and dear to their hearts than the government could ever hope to create.

Empower the individual NOT the centralized power systems that have created more suffering and more filth and more death than any other entities on the planet. RavenShadow, in many of your post's and threads, you strike me as a caring, thinking individual, please don't let these monsters fool you and blind you to what is really going on.

It all costs...Not all the higher energy cost would show up in people's utility bills.

www.guardian.co.uk...

Part of the big problem here is the BIG LIE that the average family's costs are only going to be $145 per year (or whatever B.S. figure they are putting out). The costs aren't only directly attached to your monthly electricity bill but will be hidden in the higher cost of all your purchases. This bill is going to hit the people hardest that have the least. Al Gore and Nancy Pelosi may have no problem paying for a $3 apple or a $5 stick of butter; but what about those that can't?

Anyway, so let's see what scientists are saying about the warming for the 20th century, and even before that.

Oceanic Influences on Recent Continental Warming
GILBERT P. COMPO
PRASHANT D. SARDESHMUKH
Climate Diagnostics Center,
Cooperative Institute for Research in Environmental Sciences,
University of Colorado, and
Physical Sciences Division, Earth System Research Laboratory,
National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration
325 Broadway R/PSD1
Boulder CO 80305-3328
compo@colorado.edu
(303) 497-6115
(303) 497-6449

Citation:
Compo, G.P., and P.D. Sardeshmukh, 2008: Oceanic influences on recent continental warming. Climate
Dynamics, doi: 10.1007/s00382-008-0448-9.
This article is published by Springer-Verlag. This author-created version is distributed courtesy of Springer-Verlag.
The original publication is available from www.springerlink.com at
www.springerlink.com...

Abstract
Evidence is presented that the recent worldwide land warming has occurred largely in response to a worldwide warming of the oceans rather than as a direct response to increasing greenhouse gases (GHGs) over land.

Atmospheric model simulations of the last half-century with prescribed observed ocean temperature changes, but without prescribed GHG changes, account for most of the land warming. The oceanic influence has occurred through hydrodynamic-radiative teleconnections, primarily by moistening and warming the air over land and increasing the downward longwave radiation at the surface. The oceans may themselves have warmed from a combination of natural and anthropogenic influences.

www.cdc.noaa.gov...

Thousand of new volcanoes revealed beneath the waves
10:04 09 July 2007 by Catherine Brahic
For similar stories, visit the Mysteries of the Deep Sea Topic Guide

The true extent to which the ocean bed is dotted with volcanoes has been revealed by researchers who have counted 201,055 underwater cones. This is over 10 times more than have been found before.

The team estimates that in total there could be about 3 million submarine volcanoes, 39,000 of which rise more than 1000 metres over the sea bed.

"The distribution of underwater volcanoes tells us something about what is happening in the centre of the Earth," says John Hillier of the University of Cambridge in the UK. That is because they give information about the flows of hot rock in the mantle beneath. "But the problem is that we cannot see through the water to count them," he says.

Satellites can detect volcanoes that are more than 1500 m high because the mass of the submerged mountains causes gravity to pull the water in around them. This creates domes on the ocean's surface that can be several metres high and can be detected from space.

www.newscientist.com...

Between the increase underwater volcano activity, the past activity of the Sun which was during the 20th century, and a few years in the beginning of the 21st century as the highest level of Solar activity in about 1,000 years, and the fact that several planets, and even Moons with atmosphere in the Solar System were WARMING at the same time Earth was WARMING, all of this should tell people the past warming, and the ongoing Climate Change is natural.

The Sun's activity is now at the lowest it has been in over 100 years, and if it continues we might very well find ourselves in another Little Ice Age, yet the AGW still want to contain a gas that has NEVER been proven to cause the warming claimed by the AGW fans?....

doi:10.1016/j.palaeo.2005.07.012


Copyright © 2005 Elsevier B.V. All rights reserved.
Temperature responses to quasi-100-yr solar variability during the past 6000 years based on δ18O of peat cellulose in Hongyuan, eastern Qinghai–Tibet plateau, China

Hai Xua, b, , , , Yetang Hongb, Qinghua Linb, Yongxuan Zhub, Bing Hongb and Hongbo Jiangb

aState Key Laboratory of Loess and Quaternary Geology, Institute of Earth Environment, Chinese Academy of Sciences, 10 Fenghui South Road, High-tech Zone, Xi'an, Shaanxi Province, PO Box 710075, China

bState Key Laboratory of Environmental Geochemistry, Institute of Geochemistry, Chinese Academy of Sciences, Guiyang, 550002, China


Received 28 October 2004; revised 17 July 2005; accepted 19 July 2005. Available online 22 August 2005.

Abstract
During the past 6000 years, the temperature variation trend inferred from δ18O of peat cellulose in a peat core from Hongyuan (eastern Qinghai–Tibet plateau, southwestern China) is similar to the atmospheric 14C concentration trend and the modeled solar output trend. The general trend of Hongyuan δ18O during the past millennium also coincides well with the atmospheric 14C concentration trend, the 10Be concentration trend in an ice core from the South Pole, the reconstructed total solar irradiance trend, as well as the modeled solar output trend. In addition, temperature events also correspond well to solar perturbations during the past 6000 years. Therefore, the driving force of Holocene temperature variations should be properly ascribed to solar activity. The spectrum analysis further illustrates that quasi-100-yr fluctuation of solar activity was probably responsible for temperature variations in northeast Qinghai–Tibet plateau during the past 6000 years.

Keywords: Peat; Oxygen isotopic composition; Temperature; Solar activity; Qinghai–Tibet plateau; China

www.sciencedirect



[edit on 27-6-2009 by ElectricUniverse]

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