Did Jesus actually walk this earth? Did he actually exist?

Please help. I'm pleading here. I was gonna email the guy that wrote the web page but he didn't seem to leave an email address on the site or at least I didn't see it. It says there's no record of Pontius Pilate executing a man named Jesus.

So, I'm looking for the record of who he did execute. Anything would be useful. If someone could get me Pilate's execution list or any roman list of crucifictions or executions. Roman birth records or even roman census records would help, but specifically the list of names they took. I know the Romans took excellent records. There must be a list of births and deaths and census data somewhere from the time.

I've been Googling for like two hours and I haven't found much of anything. I just want to go through them and see what is there.

Is there a link or books I can buy with these roman records in them? You've gotten me really interested now?

reply to post by KRISKALI777

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reply to post by KRISKALI777

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Hi KRIS/

you said ''Rock solid''?
(IsraelNN.com) Archaeologists have discovered what they say is the oldest Hebrew text ever found, at a site they believe was King David's front line fortress in the war against the people of Pleshet, also known as the Philistines....Oldest Hebrew Text~~~

AND A DEAD SEA SCROLL ON''STONE''
That's some sort of rock solid.

IX
helen

Seems like the page timing runs out???

These posts about whether Jesus existed or not never cease to amaze me.

I ASK YOU......

Why are the most powerful people on the planet worshiping SATAN????
I am not talking about a group of teenagers in someones basement in the middle of Ohio, BUT the MOST powerful, influential people on the planet that control all the money and every aspect of your life.
It's Right in plain sight for anyone with eyes to see..It's in their governmental buildings, monuments, their statues (why do you think they call it the pentagon?) It's on our money in our music, movies and television programs. They have infiltrated and destroyed the credibility of most of the churches and made them a pedophile haven. They pay these goofy televangelist on TV to make a mockery of Christianity and spread ridiculous internet claims that Jesus is really the Sun God Ra.

THEY sit and LAUGH RIGHT IN YOUR FACE and write books about how ignorant all of you are.....but instead of investigating them you run around like imbeciles asking whether Jesus or the New Testament is true. You want proof???????

Bohemian Grove is available on youtube or google video for free for anyone to watch... Once a year Presidents, Corporate Elitists, Politicians and the most Powerful people perform a cremation of Care ritual (a sacrifice of a life) to Moloch the OWl..BAAL...SATAN! Just as the days of Babylon.
It's on video for all to see!
DO you think they just are having a weekend of harmless fun?... or... could it be that's why they own a whole planet of 6 billion ignorant earth bound IDIOTS?? Keep playing with your blackberries, ipods, video games and posting these ridiculous questions about Jesus, because their Satanic plan is right on schedule.

HEY!!! Its 2009 right??? What do you think our calendar is based on???
2009 years since the birth of a fictitious character???? COME ON!
You Just keep asking why these nutty brainwashed Christians can be Soooo Stupid to believe in Jesus..and why we just can't see it is really the sun God Ra.
I never read any stories showing the Sun God Ra is against the oppressor Satan. Do you have ancient texts that can prove that relationship??? If you have maybe you could enlighten me.

Guess what people??? If Satan exists so does JESUS!
Wake up! and do some investigating!
They laugh at you... and the Christians pity you...So keep mocking the word of Christ...
Cause the END is almost here..
The Bible say's the generation that see's the birth of Israel will not perish until all is fulfilled. 1948 +70=
The bible predicts the rise of the Whore of Babylon and the increase of unbelievers in the last Days!
I am sure most of you unbelievers will be here to see the end unless you repent and confess that Jesus Christ paid the ransom for your soul!




















































[edit on 28-6-2009 by Wideawake08]

Gday,



Nope.
There are no such records from the time of Pilate at all.

We have only a few books from the 1st century - examples include Philo, Josephus, Seneca, Pliny.

Josephus does mention some specific crucifixions, and he does talk about Pilate.

But there are no 'lists' of births and crucifixions.


But anyway -
Here are some resources you might find helpful :

Classics online :
classics.mit.edu...
www.perseus.tufts.edu...
www.perseus.tufts.edu...

The famous Early Christian Writings :
www.earlychristianwritings.com...
Arranged by date - a superb resource, handy, mainstream, scholarly.

and it's cousin :
earlyjewishwritings.com...

Church fathers :
www.newadvent.org...


Kapyong


[edit on 28-6-2009 by Kapyong]

Gday



TACITUS (c.112CE)

Roughly 80 years after the alleged events (and 40 years after the war) Tacitus allegedly wrote a (now) famous passage about "Christ" - this passage has several problems however:
* Tacitus uses the term "procurator", used in his later times, but not correct for the actual period, when "prefect" was used.
* Tacitus names the person as "Christ", when Roman records could not possibly have used this name (it would have been "Jesus, son of Joseph" or similar.)
* This passage is paraphrased by Sulpicius Severus in the 5th century without attributing it to Tacitus, and may have been inserted back into Tacitus from this work.

This evidence speaks AGAINST it being based on any Roman records -
but
merely a few details which Tacitus gathered from Christian stories circulating in his time (c.f. Pliny.)
So,
this passage is NOT evidence for Jesus,
it's just evidence for 2nd century Christian stories about Jesus.


K.

reply to post by spellbound

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A book I have just read, and have found has a lot of good and well researched information: The Pagan Christ by Tom Harpur. ISBN 1-74114-596-1
This book may answer a few issues addressed in this forum.

reply to post by helen670

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Yeah there is a copper scroll too.
Still doesn't substantiate wether the man really existed in the same capacity as the church says.
Bring me his bones then I may believe (after DNA testing, naturally).

Well thank you very much. It'll take a day or two to read all that with the other stuff I Googled up so far as well.

However, I do think it's a bit disingenuous for the author of the linked website to say



That's a bit misleading in my opinion. Of course there is no record of Pilate executing Jesus. There's no record of Pilate executing anyone. For that matter there are no specific records of who got executed.

It's not like Jesus was missing from the list. There was no list!

Thanks for the help though. I appreciate it much.

Hi/
That's easily done!
Go to Mount Athos and ask someone to show you!
It's a man's World there!
Unless you are scared of such things?

Or go to a church...each church is dedicated to a Saint...Relics are kept there.

ICXC NIKA
helen

I know this article will mean NOTHING to the unbelievers as they will say this link really doesn't prove anything...as they completely ignored my previous post! To them SATAN exists but Jesus Christ doesn't..and for those that don't believe in Satan GUESS WHAT??? The people running the planet do..
So apparently for over 2009 years Our yearly calender is based on a fictitious person.

news.nationalgeographic.com...

2000 year old Huge Underground Chamber Found--Early Christian Refuge?

The archaeologists peered into a huge hall lined with 22 thick pillars—giving the "impression of a palace," added Zertal, of the University of Haifa in Israel.

"We didn't have much light—it was complete darkness," he said. But "even with the torches, we saw how glorious it looks."

Etched into those columns were 31 Christian crosses, Roman letters, a Zodiac sign, and what looks like the Roman army's pennant—all of which surprised the researchers.

"It surely was not just a quarry," Zertal said.


[edit on 28-6-2009 by Wideawake08]

[edit on 28-6-2009 by Wideawake08]

I know the Man. I know the God. I know the Father & I know the Spirit. Some things you just have to experience in person. Don't be like Saul/Paul and have to be bitch slapped (ha ha) at the end. It doesn't look to be long now.

Gday,



Yah.

While there are no 'records' formally,
it is quite surprising that Philo does not mention Jesus.
Nor did Justus of Tiberias mention Jesus (he wrote a history of Jewish leaders in the 1st century, but didn't mention Jesus.)

I take the view Jesus was a complete myth.


K.

Gday.



It's almost JUNE - named after Juno.
So, do you believe Juno existed?

What about day names - e.g. Thursday is Thor's day.
So, do you believe Thor existed?

Of course not -
basing days, months, or year numbers on some story or myth does NOT prove anything at all.


K.

Gday,



It's not a 'Christian cave' - it's a Roman quarry with graffiti including crosses - many people used crosses.
So what?

Crosses carved as late as 600 CE?
So what?

What is your point exactly?


K.


[edit on 28-6-2009 by Kapyong]

It's hard to believe they didn't say anything about him, but it's also hard to use the logic to say for sure. Even if he was real not everyone would have written about him.

The point that nobody outside of the Bible wrote about Jesus may be a valid argument, but to pick any one writer such as Philo or Justus just doesn't help because maybe they just didn't like the guy. Who knows?

We could say, look at all the people that did write about him such as the almost 25,000 manuscripts we have that are written by different authors at different times that referenced Jesus. Some of them date to the 2nd century and even the 1st depending on the debate at hand.

But every time you bring those up people say well those are religious texts so they don't count. Well, Philo was a Jewish philosopher and wrote religious texts right? Anyway, of course they're religious texts. They talk about Jesus. Any kind of ancient document that mentioned Jesus would automatically be called a religious text would it not? Remember the New Testament is simply a telling of what happened. That's the style it's written in.

So, according to that logic any ancient text I could find that mentioned Jesus would instantly be considered a religious text and discounted? No wonder I don't have documentation! lol.

After all most of the original source manuscripts of the ancient writings from people like Philo, Pliny, Plato, and even Homer are completing missing. They've been reconstructed from fragments and copies just like the New Testament has. To question the Gospel's authenticity means you also have to question the authenticity of all the ancient documents.

If we look at Plato's complete writings for example there are as few as only 7 manuscript copies, the earliest of which we can find may date to 1,200 years after it was supposed to be written, but we don't debate if that was authentic or not.

But that doesn't really prove anything either. But if we're going to question the historical authenticity of 25,000 cross referenced manuscripts that possibly date back to the 1st century that tell the story of what happened, then we have to question all the historical documentation. Such as did Pliny the elder really exist since the earliest material we have from him doesn't show up until 750 years later?

The point is I think a lot of people forget the Bible wasn't put together until much later. It's a collection of cross referenced manuscripts by different authors at different times that we have close to 25,000 copies of. To say there's no evidence outside the Bible is a little misleading. First, we collected it up and put it in the Bible later. Second, that's like saying I took your Philo and Justus and Pliny and Plato and I put all their work into a collection and called it the Bible2. Then I said, okay there's no proof outside the Bible2 that these guys existed. Well of course not, I just put all their stuff in one book.

If we look at Justus he was more likely born after Jesus died and Philo was a Jewish philosopher. Perhaps we wasn't too concerned with a Jewish heretic who was considered a criminal by the Jewish people and crucified. And we still have no idea how much of their material is still missing.

For many of them we have less than 10 damaged copies of their works where as the Bible we have close to 25,000 ancient copies. Some full and some partial. In ancient literature before 400 AD the Bible is actually referenced and quoted so much that the New Testament can be up to 99% reconstructed without the sources. Simply by looking at the other literature that quotes from it.

What's more telling I think though is all those people writing about the story of Jesus so much so that we have almost 25,000 manuscripts. If Jesus was not real why didn't the historians write about that? When the Christians were being put to death for their beliefs in the thousands why did most if not all the historians just forget to mention he was fake? That's the real question in my opinion.

[edit on 28-6-2009 by tinfoilman]

Gday,



Philo wrote at length on the Jews - their history, beliefs, sects and leaders; he wrote about the Logos too (Jesus was called the Logos.) Philo lived in the very time and regio of Jesus, and would certainly have mentioned him if he had been a Jewish leader/preacher whatever...

Justus of Tiberias was from Galilee - the same tiny area as Jesus, and he wrote a book about Jewish leaders in the late 1st century. He would certainly have written about Jesus if he had been any sort of real leader.




Nonsense.
These are merely later COPIES mostly from many CENTURIES later.

You have confused two fundamentally different issues - that because we have so many copies this proves the contents true. Well, this is obviously not true - the number of copies has nothing to do with the truth of the contents. Consider -

* the Iliad - over 600 manuscripts, more than the NT until after 1000AD - does this mean that the Iliad was more true than the NT until about 1000AD, but from the middle ages on, the NT became MORE TRUE than the Iliad?

* the works of 10thC. Yen-Shou of Hangchow - about 400,000 copies exist, about 4000 times as many copies as NT copies at that time - does this make the work over 4000 times MORE TRUE than the NT?

* the Book of Mormon - there are millions of copies of this work, many dating maybe a FEW YEARS after the original - would this make the Book of Mormon much MORE TRUE than the NT?

* the Lord of the Rings - there are many millions of copies of this work, (including the original manuscript AFAIK), dating from very soon after its writing - does this makes the Lord of the Rings of vastly more true than the NT?

No.
It should be obvious that the NUMBER of copies attesting to a work gives no support to the truth of the contents.




None date to 1st century.
A few tiny scraps date to 2nd century.
The earliest large MSS are from c.200CE.

There are only about 5000 Greek MSS in total.
Your figure 25000 includes all the late Latin MSS from many centuries later.




It's not black and white.
All documents 'count'
But some are less relaibel than others.

Why don't you believe the Hindu scriptures?
Why don't you believe the Scientology books?




Style means nothing.
The NT is not history at all - it is full of magic and impossible events and historical blunders...




But no one ever said that logic.
You just made it up.




We DO question the authenticity of ALL ancient documents.
Some are more reliable than others.
The NT is not very reliable.



The age of MSS has nothing to do with the truth of the contents.




No-onre forgets that.
Stop treating your readers like idiots please.




It's a collection of legends and myths - just like the Greek myths which 'cross-reference' each other.



It's completely true and relevant.



So what?
The truth of ancient books has NOTHING to do with whether they are collected into larger collections or not - what matters is whether their claims stand up to scrutiny.

The NT does not.


Kapyong

Gday,



Riiiiight.
There is evidence - we just haven't found it yet.




So what?
Why on earth do you think this proves ANYTHING?

We have millions of copies of the Book of Mormon copied from the actual original author - does that make it more true than the NT?

No?

Then why pretend that 25000 COPIES of the NT proves anything?




No it can't.

Have you tried?
Have you ever seen anyone try?

I have.

It is NOT 99% at all - this is just a little story that believers love to tell each other.




Why didn't the ancients mention Hercules was fake?
Or Aesculapius? Or Persephone? Or Dionysus? Or Apollo?
Hmm?

Because back then, when people believed this stuff - NO-ONE EVER said ANY God didn't exist - they just never ever did that.

That's why.

But -
what we DO see is all sorts of attacks on Christianity - including authors who specifically claimed the Gospels were FICTIOn based on MYTHS (Celsus.) Others claimed Jesus was a PHANTOM who never came in the flesh.

Sceptics of the day attacked Christian beliefs in every way they knew how.



Kapyong

reply to post by Kapyong

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Well you really went off, but I think you missed my point. First of all, Jesus wasn't a leader. He was a crucified criminal. I just want to get that out. In Jesus's time he would not have been put in a book of Jewish leaders.

But I think you missed m point. I'm not saying having more copies of the Bible proves it's right. In fact I never submitted any evidence at all. This is a hypothetical conversation. I said right in my post that what I was posting doesn't prove anything as it is not evidence. Did you miss that line?

What I'm saying is the books of the Bible were written by different people at different times and they all confirm and sourced each other. Why do they then not count as historical documents?

True, Philo may have lived in the same area at the same time and not written about Jesus. However, other people that did live in the same time and same area as Jesus did write about Jesus.

So you would also have to answer the question the other way. If Jesus was not real why did people write about him? My question is just as valid.

However the only answer you can give is speculation. You have no idea right? Well I have the same answer. Why didn't he write about him? I have no idea?

It maybe true that it is because he didn't exist, but my point was if Jesus didn't exist it just brings up more questions than we started with.

As for the documents that claim Jesus was a myth, what evidence do you have that they are in fact correct that Jesus was not real?

Also, I wanted to state that it's a myth that the manuscripts are merely copies of each other. Remember the Bible was written by many authors. It wasn't just one author, but I think many people forget that.

And as for scrutiny. Well, it's 2,000 years later. That's all I know and we're still here talking about it.


[edit on 29-6-2009 by tinfoilman]

Gday,



I accurately answered all your points.




Oh please !
Jesus was the leader and founder of the early Christians.
Now you pretend he weasn't a leader?
What nonsense.





You kept pointing out (over and over) the number of copies as if that made it true.
It doesn't.
Now you seem to be backing away from that claim.




What on earth is your point ?
That you have no point?




Why on earth do you think books written at different times by different people should be considered true?

What matters is whether their contents ARE true - whether they stand up to scrutiny - not whether they were 'written by different people at different times'.

The Greek myths were 'written by different people at different times'.
The Hindu scriptures were 'written by different people at different times'.
etc.

So what?

Confirm and source each other?
So do all scripture collections.

The Greek myths 'confirm and source each other'.
The Hindu scriptures 'confirm and source each other'.
So what?




They ARE 'historical documents' - documents from ancient history.
You seem to be playing word games and pretending this makes them accurate books of ancient history. It does not.

All ancient books are evaluated and checked.
The NT is evaluated and checked.
It is not good history.




No they didn't.
Which is why you didn't quote any.




If Hercules was not real, why did people write about him?
If Apollo was not real, why did people write about him?
If Bacchus was not real, why did people write about him?
If Osiris was not real, why did people write about him?

Do you really think that only REAL people get written about?
Did you not know that some books are not true?




Well, we have NO evidence for Jesus.
But we have evidence his story was considered a lie, fiction, myths.
It's pretty clear.




25000 MSS you said - do you believe there are 25000 different books?
Hmmm?

What nonsense - those 25000 MSS you mentioned over and over are COPIES of the Gospels mostly - didn't you know that?





FFS !
No-one forgets that.
Stop treating your readers like idiots.
The Greek myths were written by many people - so what?

NOT ONE of the NT books contains any claim to have met Jesus.
Not one !

So it does not matter how many books written ABOUT Jesus - CLAIMS about Jesus - BELIEFS about Jesus.

Not one single person, Christian or other, ever claimed to have met a historical Jesus (not counting the forged 2 Peter.)

Paul had a vision of Jesus.
Others wrote books about him.
No-one ever claimed themselves to have MET Jesus personally.


Kapyong


[edit on 29-6-2009 by Kapyong]

reply to post by tinfoilman

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Hi/
I would suggest you stop googling and pasting your FACTS and do your own research as to what is what!

What you are saying, is nonsense!
Of cf course there are many facts pointing to Jesus Christ existing.
Jesus Christ spoke many times to His Apostles...They wrote it down,inspired by the Holy Spirit and passed it on to us.
Very recent in fact...which I did post, seems people dont want to read, but hey,

David slaying Goliath...a older script was found..older then the sea scrolls.
There's evidence everywhere....so stop reading someones work who claim to know Scripture and Gods Wisdom, and do some real research!

Theres enough rubbish on the net.....and the sacry thing is..people believe and STAR the rubbish more!
Unbelievable,sadly but true!

ICXC NIKA
helen