Sanctum,

I didn't see any evidence of an RPG.

Where is the RPG?

You seem to be getting a bit of a hard on there .E3.

You may want to bare in mind that the video we're talking about hear actually shows individuals being killed, actually, ripped to shreds.

Try to imagine one of your dearest family members being on that video, step outside of your box...!!

Someone asked the question about what a 30mm would do, I thought it appropriate to provide some insight.

Stepping out of my box, if my family was involved in a combat effort and they were shot at by my enemy, would I mourn their loss? Of course. Would I understand that they were in fact considered combatants due to the nature of their involvement, yes. Make no mistake, combat is not fun and I don't glorify it. However, if you step outside of your box, you will realize these were combatants and they took the risk involving themselves in a conflict they knew would involve inherent dangers to that end. Do they deserve to die? That's not my judgement to make. Did they appear to be suspicious? Without the full brief on the video, I can't make that determination, but I'm sure there is more information on why the bird was chasing them down.

Rip to shreds? Barbaric? Gruesome? All of the above. Combat is not pretty. Would I expect that helicopter crew to close range and kindly request that they surrender and then request in a polite manner that they walk themselves to the nearest ground combat element to turn themselves in? No. Engage the enemy and eliminate. If the enemy request quarter, yes, give quarter. That doesn't appear to a possibility with this operation in particular.

Originally posted by StarChild

Originally posted by Joe Cat
Starchild, nobody deservs to die like a dog.....one of them was wounded, not a threat to the pilots....this is cold murder.
This just shows how the US troops "respect" the iraq civilians!!

BOO HOO...

I'm sure the innocent people in the WTC felt the same way.

# 'em... They brought it upon themselves. Good riddents.


Mr. M

Yes, and I'm sure that the innocent children who have died because of the US policies before 911 must be very happy about the WTC. The thing is tho, there is no proof of the link betwen Bin laden and the Iraqies so, they don't necessarily deserve to die. What if some other country would come attack the US because of terrorist attack in their country, would it be justified? Would we be able to say, "those civilians got what they deserved!" I think that's just a retarded way to see all this... How old are you? 11 or 12 yo maybe?

Oh btw, people in Iraq lives just like you and me. They work, they go to school, they go buy food and their kids like to play. Do they deserve to die for any crimes that their governement might have done? Kids didn't attack the WTC. That was done by angry people in extremist groups. Do YOU think you deserve to die for all the deaths resulting from Bush's war?!?! You didn't ask for what happened. Nobody asks for that. Nobody wants violence just for fun. You do it when you feel that it is the only way that your message will be heard. I'm not saying that what Al-Quaida did was right. On the contrary. It was bad. But they felt they needed to be heard. They wanted to tell us that they are tired of the control of the US over their country. You would have been born there, you'd probably feel the same way...



[Edited on 6-5-2004 by riouxda]

Let's face it, that entire culture is rift with hate and discontent for anything American or Western just because it's different. I've seen Saudi Prince's come to the US for military training in our schools and be completely wild, against everything their culture stands for. Then, they go back to their country and act "the way they are supposed to". Does that justify? Perhaps not, but the part to remember is that the extremists in that culture have no respect for anything except themselves.

Originally posted by COOL HAND

Originally posted by Joe Cat
the geneva convention didnt seemed to be aplied at guantanamo(where are afeghans and other terrorists) .......that's why i was asking!

.

I would really like to see your answer to COOL HAND's question. Why do you think the Geneva Convention is not being adhered to at GITMO??? Any solid proof of any allegations, or simply hearsay????

Originally posted by .E3.
Someone asked the question about what a 30mm would do, I thought it appropriate to provide some insight.

Would I expect that helicopter crew to close range and kindly request that they surrender and then request in a polite manner that they walk themselves to the nearest ground combat element to turn themselves in? No.

Good point .E3. They would promptly reply with return fire of some sort.
Most likely, with the RPG that they were trying to stash, it was only about
40ft away.
(visions of Chief Wiggum leaning out of the cockpit with a bull-horn
whilst eating pretzels).
S.

Originally posted by .E3.
However, if you step outside of your box, you will realize these were combatants and they took the risk involving themselves in a conflict they knew would involve inherent dangers to that end.

They didnt ask for the coalition to occupie Iraq, they are..if this was the case, i dont know.....fighting to free Iraq from the hands of coalition forces.

How couldnt they not get involves.....imagine one day muslims take over you city and you wouldnt do nothing?!?!? dont think so....

Perhaps not, but the part to remember is that the extremists in that culture have no respect for anything except themselves.

Well, that would apply for any extremists in every country. There are extremists in USA too. Just think of people like the KKK. So, the extremists in our culture also don't have any respect for anything except themselves IMO.

Nobody knows an answer to my 'double-tap' question?

Originally posted by DerekJR321
Just my .2 cents from watching the video. Even tho the gunner was ordered to "Hit Em"... watch the video. The gunner aims at the drivers side of the pick up truck. Look very closely. There is a heat signature in the drivers seat.

If you look at the heat sig' from the trucks rear wheels, they are pretty
warm. Yes, i know it's a rear wheel drive that generates heat in the
axle, differential etc. Compare the truck to the ute...it's a fair sized
truck. But it does look like such a strong heat sig would indicate
the truck is carrying weight. RPG's are tubes and would be easy
to try and hide 50-80 under a tarp'.
S.

[Edited on 16-5-2004 by sanctum]

Originally posted by curme
Nobody knows an answer to my 'double-tap' question?

Pilots don't have the ability to capture enemy combatants. They can "lay off" fire if there is GCE in the area. Typically pilots will make multiple passes to ensure all targets are eliminated.

The "double-tap" rule generally can only be something used by ground troops with small arms. An Apache helicopter working at a distance like that has orders to eliminate targets and that's the bottom line. Leaving wounded targets alive and flying off into the sunset is just a huge liability. This is just one of those harsh realities of war. People WILL die.

As far as the Geneva Convention goes... the US really isn't so bad about following it. Can any nation at war be held to the Geneva Convention by the letter? Doubtful considering we still have issues with killing our own troops in friendly fire incidents. Let alone making sure we treat every last enemy combatant in a humane manor.

If you go back in history there are plenty of examples in war time of how our following of the Geneva Convention actually cost us lives in our side. But regardless we continued to follow it and still do to this day.

The bottom line though is commanders in the armed forces will do what it takes to minimize losses on our side.

A couple of things to note about this video:

1. 9 seconds of footage is removed from the video before shots are ever fired. You can notice this easily from a jump in the video and watching the time stamp.

2. Obviously they had been following them long before the video started.

3. The pilot confirms the object IS in fact a weapon. Command asks if the pilot is sure and he confirms that it IS a weapon. If you're in a combat situation you live by your judgments right or wrong. This was a judgment made by a trained combat pilot in a combat situation. If you think you can do better then please go and join up or shut up.


-sock

Originally posted by s0cket

If you go back in history there are plenty of examples in war time of how our following of the Geneva Convention actually cost us lives in our side. But regardless we continued to follow it and still do to this day.



-sock

What examples are you talking about?

For ground forces in battle to finish off the wounded is practically a gimme. It may even be merciful, when comparing itm to what could happen to them in captivity(ie Viet Nam).

But not among the civilized nations. we, as a civilized society, should not go around cutting off heads. We aren't the Mongols. I have no pity for those men who got blasted, but this video was released for some reason. If those pilots were on a seek and destroy mission, it should have stayed that way. Not very many people have access to those in flight videos, and IMO someone released it for some reason.

A lot of people seem to forget that the US troops are just doing what they are ordered to do.Maybe they shouldn't be there maybe they should.The fact is they are and their lives are in danger day and night.Thats not something easily comprehended for us lot sat in front of our computers,most likely safe and sound.

If you are in that helicopter what would you do ? Risk your life because after all it's wrong for you to be there ?

No, you would probably do exatly what those guys did and feel justified in your actions.

Unfortunately innocent people die in wars and instead of giving the troops a hard time on these boards while they are a long way from home under constant threat,maybe one or two of you could lay off them for a while and stick to complaining about the politics that got them there and/or are keeping them there.

Hopefully things over in Iraq can soon come to a peaceful conclusion and the brave soldiers from all the countries over there can return back home proud of doing their duty.

How very patriotic! But no matter what we're, and i say we're because im totally with you on this, we're still going to have people who are opposed to war or what we're doing and will argue this until its all over