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Is the Qur'an Inheritantly Evil?

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posted on Jun, 25 2009 @ 11:08 PM
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Is the Qur'an Inheritantly Evil?


pedestrianinfidel.blogspot.com

Qur’an 4.89 ... seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper.
Qur’an 5:51 “Muslims, do not make friends with any but your own people.”
Qur’an 8:12 cp. 8:60 “Instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers”; “smite above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them”
Qur’an 2:191 “...kill the disbelievers wherever we find them”
Qur’an 8:55 Surely the vilest of animals in Allah’s sight are those who disbelieve.
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posted on Jun, 25 2009 @ 11:08 PM
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For those of you who have a Qur'an you can confirm that it does actually say this. And I've found the whole book is full of hatred and anger towards all non-believers. These passages being the most obvious.

Recently I obtained a Qu'ran from a Muslim that were handing them out for free, probably trying to get people interested in Islam.

When I discussed thsi with different Muslims, some from Pakistan, some from Libya, their response was ignorant of the fact that these passages exist. And they avoid all topics of the Qu'ran whenever I mentioned these passages. Or say these passages have been mis-understood!

The Qur'an I obtained says on the back of the book that it has been translated by a well repected Muslim cleric, and to me, the definitions of these passages are obvious... you can't misunderstand the meaning of the words "kill the disbelievers...".

I discussed this with friends who have family in Muslim countries yet do not follow Islam themselves, and they also confirmed what I had observed about denial of these passages by the majority of Muslims.

I'm just wondering what people on here think of this, and if they have had similar experiences.

I also found this quote:


Qur’an 4:78 “Wherever you are, death will find you, even if you are in towers built up strong and high! If some good befalls, they say, ‘This is from Allah;’ but if evil, they say, ‘This is from you (Muhammad).’ Say: ‘All things are from Allah.’ So what is wrong with these people, that they fail to understand these simple words?”


This made me think of one thing instantly - 9/11.

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I then find myself wondering why moderate Muslim's want to be associated with such texts of anger and evil. And if god really wrote this, then he is an angry fellow!

We see extremists taking the Qur'an literally, are they the only Muslims in the world? And the moderates just a civilised and often westernised update of Islam, minus these angry verses.

But the problem is moderates find that removing these passages unacceptable... How can moderates ever escape the association with extremism with these verses printed in every Qur'an?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Obviously here in the west political correctness prevents this from being spoken by mainstream politicians? If politicians cannot face up to the truth of the matter, then how can the world ever do the same and sort out the problems peacefully between Islamic extremism and the free world.

IMO we near a clearer separation between radical & extremist Islam and the peaceful people who call themselves Muslims as well. Because too often we see moderates being labelled extremists by people unable to distinguish.

But if by definition the Qur'an is inheritantly evil, then Islam is inheritantly evil, and so these peaceful Muslims aren't really Muslims after all?

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pedestrianinfidel.blogspot.com
(visit the link for the full news article)

[edit on 25-6-2009 by john124]

[edit on 25-6-2009 by john124]



posted on Jun, 25 2009 @ 11:12 PM
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Dutch MP posts Islam film on web

Dutch MP refused entry to Britain

A short while back we had this incident of the Dutch MP prevented from being allowed into the UK for pointing out these verses in a video.

If he's only pointing out that the Qur'an states these things, why should this not be allowed as freedom of speech?

IMO it is not inciting hatred, it is simply showing how the Qur'an itself incites hated. He is not showing hate for Muslims, he is showing the reverse.

[edit on 25-6-2009 by john124]



posted on Jun, 25 2009 @ 11:12 PM
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[edit on 26-6-2009 by In nothing we trust]



posted on Jun, 25 2009 @ 11:44 PM
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reply to post by john124
 


There's also a parallel in the OT Bible, the only Difference is Qu'ran gave more details.

Although say in the Bible, it didn't say, "instill terror.." What the Israelites did, achieved the same effect in the neighbors of their defeated foes.

I would say the Qu'ran is the 'hardcore' edition of the OT Bible.



posted on Jun, 26 2009 @ 12:56 AM
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I find it difficult to believe that any inanimate object is evil, or good for that matter.

People happen to be both and simply use those objects to justify their prejudice and personal failings.

No matter where you go, you can always find someone that will tell you how you should be living, what you should be thinking and whom you should be loving..

Books are books...

It's all in what you believe.



posted on Jun, 26 2009 @ 03:58 AM
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Originally posted by darkangel831
No matter where you go, you can always find someone that will tell you how you should be living, what you should be thinking and whom you should be loving..

Books are books...

It's all in what you believe.


Well apparently, the Middle East isn't America.

Qu'ran is like a Great White Shark. Great White Sharks aren't dangerous if it's on land, unless you're stupid enough to wander near its mouth. However, it's far different scenario if you're in the water with it


-America is the land
-Middle East is the water or sea, you get the idea!


[edit on 26-6-2009 by ahnggk]



posted on Jun, 26 2009 @ 05:19 AM
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reply to post by john124
 

It always makes me sad when these same "quotes" are posted here again and again, with this selective editing. Did you know, this is probably the 50th time I've given this exact same response?

If you've read the Quran, you'll be interested to know that those quotes are INCOMPLETE!

for example:

4:89
They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks;


or another example:

8:12
Remember thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): "I am with you: give firmness to the Believers: I will instil terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them."

Where the Quran is talking about the occasion of a certain battle (you will excuse me if I cannot quote the whole surah to give context, it is pretty long), and you'll notice, it is God who is striking terror, and angels who are smiting necks and fingertips (not that there is anything wrong with people smiting necks and fingertips at the time of battle).

and:

2:190-92
And fight in the way of God those who fight you, but do not aggress: God loves not the aggressors. And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have Turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith. But if they cease, Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.



and 8:55 is a perfect example to illustrate what I've been saying for ages and ages now (not in this thread, though, obviously):

8:55
For the worst of beasts in the sight of Allah are those who reject Him: They will not believe.

"kaffir" (rejectors) is not the same as nonbelievers (which is la 'yuminoona' here)


And there you have it!
Another thing that irks me is the use of the term "moderate muslim", as if it is something different from normal Islam, and "extremist muslim", as if it is something that could be connected to Islam (not saying the OP is doing it, just an observation).
One of the many names for Islam is "The Middle Way" (the path between two extremes), and this is illustrated throughout the scriptures- muslims are obviously not allowed to go down the path of pure "this-wordliness", they can't go and become monks secluded from the rest of humanity.

While spirituality has rights over a Muslim, it is also very clearly stated that family/real-life has rights as well (you can't decide to pray through the night if your day-to-day interactions are going to suffer, for example).
AND (as relating to this topic) while Muslims are never allowed to be the aggressors in the fight, they are absolutely within their rights to defend themselves by whatever means necessary, BUT, if peace is requested/offered, it must be accepted. The right to self-defense is very explicitly stated in the Islamic Scriptures.

So as you can see, the Quran (or its author) is certainly not inherently evil, but people can certainly pretend to use it for evil work (it is much easier and noticeable to say "KILL KILL KILL! THE QURAN SAYS TO KILL!", than to read through long paragraphs of scripture, I suppose, especially when you've got poor ignoramuses who are willing to take in anything that is fed to them).

Sorry if I sound jaded on this topic, but seriously, this is the umpteenth time I'm having this discussion (no offense meant to you, you just joined last week), and I'll probably have it dozens more times.

PS: A side-question from my end: is that your blog?

[edit on 26-6-2009 by babloyi]



posted on Jun, 26 2009 @ 02:14 PM
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OK you have a point about these quotes, but the Qur'an has many many verses showing direct & extreme hatred towards all non-believers especially Jews. That cannot be in dispute, unless you think you can change the meaning of the english language!

Anyway there's very little difference between them saying their god can do this, and themselves do this. This can be interpreted that they can act in Allah's name.

Yes I have read bits of Qur'an but I'm not going to read it all!!! Anyone with any intellectual skills whatsoever can see this is a book of anger and deceit, inciting hatred, with a random page opening.

The hypocrisy of peaceful people who call themselves Muslims is an issue which must be addressed, as often Islam societies are handing out free qurans whilst having no knowledge of its content. To me this is young people in disarray forced into Islam by convenience rather than a well thought out choice.

If you have the time to waste by reading it all then quite frankly I find that amusing, no offence intended.


Quite frankly, I hold all religions with contempt because all religions have their own different self-righteous attitudes which are utterly pathetic. If they showed some respect towards people with different beliefs, or athiests then the respect would also be returned by athiests.

But I don't have any problem with religious people who remain peaceful towards others. I also understand that all religions have some form of violence in their histories. But Islamic violence is beyond a joke, their holy texts describe the most violent & vicious of killings as though they are discussing the weather reports. We see these acts carried out by the taliban, the Iranian islamic regime, hamas, hezbollah - all terrorist sponsored organisations or terrorists themselves.

IMO the Qur'an is also a book jokes. I mean would anyone besides an angry clown write such gibberish and complete nonsense.

And of course the bible is no better in terms of talking the most absolute gibberish & bull#.

Just reading the quran makes you wonder why the heck anyone wants to be associated with such despicable descriptions of extreme violence.

And before you say I'm responding using anger towards anger, no I'm not. Keep the old straw-man arguments to yourself please. I'm simply making accurate & rational observations that any rational person would agree with.

IMO many Muslim's worldwide and in Muslim countries, especially women are only Muslims because they are forced to be, the burka is an example of such despicable oppression.

Now I'm not saying we should force people away from this religion or any other religions without their consent, but they must be allowed religious freedoms as well as other freedoms at some point in the history of Islamic countries for successful integration into the rest of the world. Unless all westerns see fit to integrate into a backwards society of women with faces covered in public, stoning raped women and regular beatings. Which I think is highly unlikely.


IMO many Muslims if they had a choice would not even choose to be a Muslim, or at the very least prefer freedoms rather than sharia laws... look at Iran now as an amazing example of this, they seem to think dying for democracy is a worthwhile sacrifice.

With critical thinking skills employed & dialogue between westerners & young Muslims as well as other young religious people in places like Britain, I foresee people seeing opportunities to become free of religious restraints. I wouldn't expect to be able to change the mind of older generations though.

IMO religions actually cause more closed-mindedness without many people actually realising this. And you should see why I and many others seem baffled by the necessity for people to live by faith alone.

As you may predict I'm a big fan of Prof. Richard Dawkins, and his views on religions, although in my view I see Islam as an overdrive of non-critical thinking, compared to all other major religions.

IMO I feel religions prevent people from opening their minds and becoming spiritual. I see spirituality as accepting whatever our existence becomes during life and after, whether there is a god or not. Therefore being on the fence would not send me to hell.
Well probably because there is no hell IMO.

And for humans to truly accept our place in the universe most likely among many other forms of life, to look for answers inside a book rather than the stars seems a little unenlightened. And all forms of hatred must be removed from the human psyche, and replaced with something much nicer.

p.s. just for the record, that's not my blog I sourced. And if you wish to reply please address the bigger issues as well as the minor ones. If I have made a few minor discrepancies somewhere don't use those as an excuse to avoid the whole bigger picture.

[edit on 26-6-2009 by john124]



posted on Jun, 26 2009 @ 02:29 PM
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reply to post by babloyi
 



Another thing that irks me is the use of the term "moderate muslim", as if it is something different from normal Islam, and "extremist muslim", as if it is something that could be connected to Islam (not saying the OP is doing it, just an observation).
One of the many names for Islam is "The Middle Way" (the path between two extremes), and this is illustrated throughout the scriptures- muslims are obviously not allowed to go down the path of pure "this-wordliness", they can't go and become monks secluded from the rest of humanity.


Well the quran IMO holds the evidence to favour my view - that those people called terrorists who kill people are true Muslims... and those who call themselves moderates are westernised civlised people who can be appropriately called "fake muslims".

Again I ask why would any civilised person want to be associated with a large text of anger & hatred?

"The Middle Way" (path between two extremes) - sorry but this is utter bull#. Why people stick up for the nonsense this religion spouts is beyond me... they will say anything to legitimatize what they believe or what they live in ignorance about, and politically correct people fall for this or just don't care to bring up the issues. And the majority of the rest follow in line like sheep.

All religious studies just accept too much fiction and fairy tales as factual accounts in support of beliefs which are extreme, and use that as evidence to say they are watered down. These kinds of studies should be called delusional studies!!

IMO Islamic studies is a study of the delusions of angry people, and a constituent delusional fanbase who may or may not call themselves muslims.

I think we have to come to the conclusion that too many young people don't engage their brains on the issue enough and question these issues.... and leading to confusion and anger from within which is often unconfined and outwardly blaming, rather than looking at the real issue from within islam.

Unless they are just too stupid to understand... that's also possible and definitely plausible!



[edit on 26-6-2009 by john124]



posted on Jun, 26 2009 @ 02:47 PM
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reply to post by john124
 

Oh...I apologise. I thought we were having a reasoned debate about whether the Quran is inheritantly[sic] evil. I'd assume such a discussion would require a reasonable perusal of said book, along with what the book defines and lays out as "the religion of Islam".

I didn't realise you were going on page-long rhetoric along the lines of:
"The quran is violent
Yeah, the quran is violent
Oh, and the Quran is violent
The Quran is "bull#"
Fiction, Fairytales, delusions, confusion."

Every claim I made (including the title of "the middle way") is backed up by the text of the Quran. Every claim you made is laced with "IMO". If you feel it beneath yourself to read the Quran, it is fairly absurd for you to (pretend to?) discuss it's inherent evilness.

Anyhow, carry on!

[edit on 26-6-2009 by babloyi]



posted on Jun, 26 2009 @ 03:02 PM
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Originally posted by babloyi
reply to post by john124
 

Oh...I apologise. I thought we were having a reasoned debate about whether the Quran is inheritantly[sic] evil. I'd assume such a discussion would require a reasonable perusal of said book, along with what the book defines and lays out as "the religion of Islam".

I didn't realise you were going on page-long rhetoric along the lines of:
"The quran is violent
Yeah, the quran is violent
Oh, and the Quran is violent
The Quran is "bull#"
Fiction, Fairytales, delusions, confusion."

Every claim I made (including the title of "the middle way") is backed up by the text of the Quran. Every claim you made is laced with "IMO". If you feel it beneath yourself to read the Quran, it is fairly absurd for you to (pretend to?) discuss it's inherent evilness.

Anyhow, carry on!

[edit on 26-6-2009 by babloyi]


Religions get a free ride, why should they not be criticised. We can criticise politicians, sports players etc... but if we mention the prophet mohammed's killing sprees and rampages etc, they threaten to kill us. And then proclaim it's all in the name of a peaceful religion. Excuse me for pointing out the obvious hypocrisy shown there!

I was hoping you'd provide a worthwhile argument against what I have provided.

A random page opening of the quran can tell you everything you need to know. I have read bits of it, you would send yourself crazy if you sat down and read it all. Oh wait... that's what has happened to some muslims that read it.


I've backed up my claims with quotes from the quran of words with obvious meanings.

You quote random stories as fact, quite different. These stories even if assumed correct do not change the meaning of other hatred verses. Well, contradictions and hypocrisy "are" the forte of these people!

You choose to ignore and not discuss the real issues just as expected.

But there's always at least one fanboy of every kind of despicableness.

[edit on 26-6-2009 by john124]

[edit on 26-6-2009 by john124]



posted on Jun, 26 2009 @ 03:15 PM
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reply to post by john124
 

"Fanboy of despicableness"?! Good one!

I'm going to have to note that down in my big book of terms people have used to insult me.


Originally posted by john124
Religions get a free ride, why should they not be criticised. We can criticise politicians, sports players etc...

Go ahead and criticise! Nobody here has mentioned anything about threats but yourself!
But if you're criticisms turn out to be baseless, you can expect to be called out on them.



Originally posted by john124
I was hoping you'd provide a worthwhile argument against what I have provided.

.....

I've backed up my claims with quotes from the quran of words with obvious meanings.

You quote random stories as fact, quite different.

Yes, and the "quotes" you gave were shown to be edited and incomplete. When I quoted the whole passage, I was quoting stories, but when you quoted incomplete and inaccurate edits of the same passage, you were giving "quotes from the Quran with obvious meanings"? Yes, the meanings are quite obvious. You'll understand what is being talked about if you read the whole sentence at least!

A PARABLE:
Your version of the quote: "...Tom is an evil and violent murderer"
Actual version: "I don't think Tom is an evil and violent murderer".

Or perhaps something more pertinent to the topic:
You say: The Quran says "To kill the unbelievers wherever you find them!"
The actual quote: "Fight those who fight you, but don't aggress. Kill them wherever you find them"

I'm sure you can understand what is "obvious".
Just to be clear, do you admit you were wrong about those quotes?

Please, put forward the "real issue", and we can discuss them. But if the "real issue" is a one-sided rant agains a book you don't feel like reading, you'll understand why no one will participate?

[edit on 26-6-2009 by babloyi]



posted on Jun, 26 2009 @ 03:18 PM
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Quote: "The whole sodding lot of the quran"

Anger, hatred towards all non-believers.

Incites hatred towards all non-believers. Therefore it can produce evil attributes within believers. A book itself cannot be evil, but the writers of this book can be appropiately called evil and inciters of hatred.

Some backwards primitive humans who lack the intelligence or social skills to behave reasonably towards the rest of the world are the authors of the quran trash.

A god wrote it you may say...... hahahahahahahaha that's very funny
If we assume such mythical beings can exist, this kind of text would be the work of the devil!

Now we can say all the statements that I put were IMO are now accurate and correct.

[edit on 26-6-2009 by john124]



posted on Jun, 28 2009 @ 10:41 PM
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Those quotations are grossly taken out of context and mistranslated and wrong but not all of it. There are plenty of Quran's available on the net so I suggest looking them up for yourself. I would do the work for you, but you've already proved you're not interested in anything that's really in the Quran.



posted on Jul, 7 2009 @ 02:07 AM
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This is perhaps trite by now, but you can take similar phrases from the bible and make similar arguments.

In Numbers it is told that the Israelites, shortly after receiving the Ten Commandments, including the admonition "Thou Shalt Not Kill", went on a violent rampage throughout the Sinai/Negev wilderness area.



Numbers 21.24 (RSV) And Isreal slew him with the edge of the sword, and took possession of his land from the Arnon to the Jabbok, as far as to the Ammonites; for Jazer was the boundary of the Ammonites.



Numbers 21.32 (RSV) And Moses sent to spy out Jazer; and they took its villages, and dispossessed the Amorites that were there.


Then they confronted the Og, the King of Bashan:

Numbers 21.35 (RSV) So they slew him, and his sons, and all his people, until there was not one survivor left to him; and they possessed his land.


Later:

Numbers 31.7 (RSV) They warred against Midian, as the Lord commanded Moses, and slew every male.

(And, by the way, Moses was angry that the women weren't killed too, and demanded that this error be corrected - see Numbers 31.13 to 18.).

And the Lord instructed Moses, before crossing into Canaan at the end of their wanderings:

Numbers 33.42 (RSV) then you shall drive out all the inhabitants of the land from before you...


Much of this is repeated in Deuteronomy, with a bit more detail about how utterly the victims and their property were destroyed.

And then the real ethnic cleansing began, the destruction of Jericho, the slaughter of the Amorites and execution of their kings, destruction of Makke'dah, Libnah, Lachish, Gezer, Eglon, Hebron, Debir, Hazor and its several dependencies.



For it was the Lord's doing to harden their hearts that they should come against Israel in battle, in order that they should be utterly destroyed, and should receive no mercy but be exterminated...


How about punishment for proselytizing?


Deuteronomy 13.10 You shall stone him to death with stones, because he sought to draw you away from the Lord your God.


And the homes of the Proselytizers?


Deuteronomy 13.15 you shall surely put the inhabitants of that city to the sword, destroying it utterly, all who are in it and its cattle, with the edge of the sword.


Disagree with a judge?


Deuteronomy 17.12 The man who acts presumptuously, but not obeying the priest who stands to minister there before the Lord you God, or the judge, that man shall die...


Son talks back to the parents?


Deuteronomy 21.21 Then all the men of the city shall stone him to death with stones...


False accusation of pre-marital sex against a wife? Husband is beaten.
True accusation of pre-marital sex against a wife? Wife is killed.
(Deuteronomy 22.13-21)



[edit on 7/7/2009 by rnaa]



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