It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.
Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.
Thank you.
Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.
Also, the graphic that says the nose of the plane created the hole in the C-ring hole. I beleive that is incorrect. We were told on site that the engine block of the plane is what created that hole as parts of the engine were found in that area. The nose would have been obliterated at impact as its metal not as dense as the engine.
Originally posted by BigSarge
By "way" I mean asking leading questions that get an answer from me that matches your theory. Certainly did not mean you have been disrespectful in any way.
Thanks for the overlay. If you look at the north side projections, while it is not exactly over ANC, if you were standing in that section and had a large passenger jet come overhead as where it is labelled "Witness drawings" I would need to look up in order to see it. From my vantage point, the plane was close to if not just above my eyeshot. I did not need to rotate my neck and head and eyes upward very much at all to see the plane. It was not within range that if I threw a baseball that i could have hit it. Hopefully this makes sense to you.
But I do agree with you in that, if it were flying the "official path" in relation to the annex, most likely I would not have been able to see it at all, just based on the lay of the ground I was on. My best guess is that it was located somewhere between the "official path" and flying directly over the Citgo. But, that's just a guestimate based on how far the plane appeared to be away from my location. It was also coming in at a slightly downturned angle, not straight in 50 feet off the ground so to speak.
I don't have any information about light poles, so really don't feel the need to speculate.
Same with a C-130. I did not see one at any point that I remember, but doesn't mean it wasn't there. Just that I did not see it.
You say that it is impossible for the plane to have hit, but just as I said before, maybe take my advice in never saying never or impossible. Anything is possible, but maybe from your investigation you feel it is unlikely. If the plane were as I THINK it was, the damage inside is/was entirely possible, even scientifically. And you still don't answer my question. Saying "they" have "advanced weaponry" is just guessing on your part. I'd like to hear of something tangible that explains how anything other than a plane could have caused the actual damage and debris inside the Pentagon.
Originally posted by BigSarge
Weedwhacker, not to defend Craig as I do not wish to take sides in this, I think he was inferring that Keith Wheelhouse was a fraud.
If he says he was in that section of ANC, I'd really like to know how and why he was there. He certainly was not a member of the Honor Guard or ANC staff. He was not a family member of the funeral that was taking place as it was an African-American family. If he were a tourist, he would have been ushered away from that section prior to the funeral as they are considered private events and tourists are moved away. the only possible option that he would have been allowed to be in that section/area is if he where visiting an actual gravesite. So he should be able to tell you who he was visiting and why. Pretty easy to debunk if he doesn;t have that info.
Originally posted by BigSarge
Has anyone every been interviewed who was located in the courtyard that saw or heard a large passenger jet flyover? I can tell you, it was very loud as it passed with engines running high. Someone there would have seen or at least heard the very loud jets just overhead flying away from them. Even with the explosion.
Originally posted by Craig Ranke CIT
He is the ONLY person who talks of the C-130 as a "shadow" right alongside"AA77".
Originally posted by BigSarge
Also, most of the damage inside the structure, and I am talking damage to walls, cubicles, basically easy stuff to damage was the left of the blast hole. When we were cleaning out the debris, we walked in and out of that hole many times, particularly before they shored up the supports to where we could clean out the section that collapsed.
it seemed the majority of the fire and damage inside were to the left of where the section of the bulding collapsed. On the other side of the collapsed section, the damage was not that extensive at all, especially on the higher floors. Most seemed to be from smoke and or from the concussion of the blast.
I have no idea what that means or what the implications might be
Originally posted by Craig Ranke CIT
Originally posted by BigSarge
Has anyone every been interviewed who was located in the courtyard that saw or heard a large passenger jet flyover? I can tell you, it was very loud as it passed with engines running high. Someone there would have seen or at least heard the very loud jets just overhead flying away from them. Even with the explosion.
Roosevelt Roberts Jr saw it as did others as reported by Erik Dihle.
As described by the ANC maitenance workers who unlike you, had a clear view of the approach, it was in a significant bank.
It was barely over the building and the bank continued over the south parking lot which means it may have missed the courtyard for the most part.
Maybe some people in the courtyard did see it but if they did they are afraid to talk, with good reason.
The only reason Roosevelt Roberts talked is because he was deceived into thinking it was a "another plane" and did not understand the implications.
But we know for a fact that there was no second "commercial airliner" at 50 feet altitude flying away immediately after the explosion as if it "missed its target, missed the landing zone".
The fact that military people in the courtyard aren't talking does not disprove the fact that you saw the plane proving the officially required flight path false.
Originally posted by Craig Ranke CIT
Roosevelt Roberts Jr saw it as did others as reported by Erik Dihle.
Originally posted by Craig Ranke CIT
As described by the ANC maitenance workers who unlike you, had a clear view of the approach, it was in a significant bank.
Originally posted by BigSarge
I watched the presentation, and saw no one who was inside the Pentagon courtyard that saw the plane fly over.
Also, I did not state that I would not be able to see it unless it was north of the Citgo. Based on the fact that it was not THAT CLOSE to me, I feel it was either directly over the Citgo, or just south of the Citgo. What also matters is the altitude at that point. If it were 1,000 feet off the ground I could have seen it from over I-395, even south of the "official" report.
Yes, I know it wasn't that high, but just making the point that its altitude at the point it passed over the annex area/direction makes a difference in what anyone from ANC would have seen.
IMO, every time I read your statments that say something is not debatable and is absolute fact it somewhat discredits your work here. It says you have decided and are closed minded on what actually happened. no one truly knows every detail as it happens except for God himself. You are making assumptions based on witnesses which if you look at ALL of the witness accounts as a whole and not just the ones that fit your theory, vary WIDELY.
Personally, I tend to believe my own eyes and experience over that of someone else trying to tell me what I did or did not see. I encourage you to continue speculating, but would love to see you take some of your considerable investigation skills and apply them to finding out how and why this plane was not stopped before hitting the Pentagon rather than arguing over its flight path 50 feet left or right. Even if you believe your own theory, that the plane did not crash, but flew over. Have you put any research into finding out where the plane went? And how many people would need to be involved to make such a mission possible? Quite a few great Soldiers were killed in that attack. And I don't know of ANYONE, much less 100's of government people that would assit in covering up and/or perpetrating such an event. AND still be able to keep it quiet 8 years later.
Originally posted by Craig Ranke CIT
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/508bbf792e1a.gif[/atsimg]
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/07cfba55f264.jpg[/atsimg]
Originally posted by BigSarge
Who are these "others"? Roosevelt Roberts alone, out of the hundreds of possible witnesses to a fly away is no where near enough to even consider that it actually did so. And based on the speed and trajectory I witnessed, there is no way the plane could have banked enough in any direction as to not fly over the courtyard. If the contention is that it banked over the south parking lot, then there should be even MORE witnesses. people in the parking lot, people in buildings in Crystal City which is just south of the Pentagon. there must be literally just as many if not MORE witnesses to a flyway than those who witnessed it flying towards the Pentagon. once there was an explosion, it gave everyone within earshot a reason to look that direction.
Honestly, ask yourself wouldn't there be 5 times as many witnesses to a fly away is there is to a fly to? There's no way it would NOT have passed over the highway leaving the scene. Where are all those witnesses? We should see 5 times as many videos of those folks. it just doesn't make viable sense that we do not.
Originally posted by Reheat
Dihle doesn't even remember saying what you indicate he said.
Originally posted by Reheat
NO ONE said or illustrated a significant bank at all.
KWAME HOLMAN: When American Airlines Flight 77 slammed into the Pentagon, taking the lives of all on board, it carried eight members of a National Geographic Society field trip, including students and teachers from Washington, D.C. Leading the trip were Geographic Society staffers Ann Judge, 49, and Joe Ferguson, 39. Lanny Proffer worked with them.
Originally posted by BigSarge
Instead of turning this into an arguement that obviously neither side is going to admit being wrong about. Let's use Craig's assumption that the plane did not crash into the Pentagon.
Where did the plane and its passengers go and why would the government want these people kept alive?
Why not crash them into the Pentagon and "destroy the evidence" of the conspiracy? Not only the innocent passengers, but also the terrorists who were seen boarding the flight at Dulles?
Since you seem to be convinced of the fly away, have you begun an investigation on this? Any evidence found?