Britain's child poverty disgrace

Originally posted by pieman

Originally posted by The Last Man on Earth
Actually no, you're entirely wrong. I spent a lot of my life doing drugs, and the thing about doing drugs is that you end up having to go to the worst kind of people to get them.

d'ya think that your opinions might be a little skewed considering you basing them on a bunch of low life drug dealing scumbags, by any chance?

and by the way, the fact that you've spent "a lot" of your life doing drugs and still need to go to a scuzzy council flat to score crap drugs from chavs you hate underlines the fact that you're probably a stupid half wit with a big mouth, as if your opinions weren't enough.

Do you think drug dealers exist in a vacuum? Do you think there is some kind of drug dealer council estates, where all the "good" poor people are spirited away to whatever fantasy land you live in?

Do you have any experience at all with what I'm talking about? Do you have high-class friends who spend their days on Wall Street and then deal drugs on the side? Do you have any sort of rational counter-arguments to my own or do you have nothing more than a pack of insults to throw at me?

Do you have enough of your own wit to actually use proper punctuation and grammar, or would you like some of my half?

Or do you simply have absolutely no clue as to what you're talking about, but are angry that my opinions differ so wildly from your own?

Originally posted by stumason
reply to post by The Last Man on Earth

 

Don't worry dude, I know what your saying. I too have contact with several of these "long-term unemployed" and completely agree with you. There is no desire to work, they go through the motions of signing on without actually "seeking a job", as the allowance implies.

Also, the actual threshold to be considered as living in poverty is actually quite high. It doesn't mean cardboard shoes and porridge for dinner, not by a long shot.

Thank you, I'm glad someone here is actually cognisant of what chavs are actually like.

"These poor, underprivileged kids who are stabbing each other to death must simply need a bit more free money, because they're poor!"

No, what they need is a god-damned family that works for a living and has some responsibilities.

Originally posted by The Last Man on Earth
Do you think drug dealers exist in a vacuum? Do you think there is some kind of drug dealer council estates, where all the "good" poor people are spirited away to whatever fantasy land you live in?

no, there isn't any vacuum. they exist because there is a lucrative demand for drugs, which you help create. dealers exist at all levels of society, however, given the nature of competition in business at the level of society you seem to frequent, they tend to be the most distasteful people.

your opinion says more about the company you're willing to keep than the nature of society in working class areas.

Do you have any experience at all with what I'm talking about?

i grew up rough, on a rough estate, in a rough town, so no, no idea at all.

Do you have high-class friends who spend their days on Wall Street and then deal drugs on the side??

not on wall street, no, new york would be quite a trek for me, but i certainly haven't any need to resort to buying from people in council flats.

Do you have enough of your own wit to actually use proper punctuation and grammar, or would you like some of my half?

considering the grammatical quality of that sentence, i don't think you have any to spare.

Or do you simply have absolutely no clue as to what you're talking about, but are angry that my opinions differ so wildly from your own?

i think your opinion is offensive and ignorant. i have a lot of friends that you, in your ignorance, would call chavs, or perhaps an undesirable underclass. i might have been called just that by you ten years ago. i responded to you in kind.

reply to post by pieman


To be honest, you haven't a clue, and your posts reflect it. I'm done discussing anything with you. Especially your wonderful comeback about my grammatically-correct sentence, in which you failed to capitalise any words at all. Brilliant.

kids who are born in to poverty or to parents, some on here would consider "chavs". do not choose to be born into poverty. poverty is not just about having no job and no money, there is also poverty of opportunity and poverty of aspiration.
How can we blame the poor for being poor. Surely its been the policies of governments over the past 20 years. What about the bankers who've robbed us all, should they shoulder any blame?

Maybe when the financial crisis gets worse and your friends or family have to go on to benifits, will you view them as scrounging underclass?

Originally posted by The Last Man on Earth
I'm done discussing anything with you.

probably a good idea, quit with some dignity at least?

Especially your wonderful comeback about my grammatically-correct sentence, in which you failed to capitalise any words at all. Brilliant.

i never claimed to have grammatical superiority. besides which, of course, capitalisation would be properly described as punctuation, not grammar. grammar is the construction and syntax of a sentence while punctuation is the notation of stops, starts and pauses used to emphasise motion and emotion in the written word.

but what would i know, i'm just a chav without a clue.

[edit on 25/6/09 by pieman]

Seems to me that we could probably stay away from attacking each other and discuss the subject? It's a good subject and one worthy of debate.

Great stuff pieman, I also have had extensive (dealings lol) with the chavs and I can tell you something, they are as you say, the worst type of people.
It's not about race or about poor individuals just needing a break, these scumbags are happy with their crap little lives sponging off the state, waiting for thier grows and rutting like rats with their addidas princess's.
This is the best these worthless people can do at life. If it wasn't for the weak rap lyrics and their dumb chav families egging them on they might feel ashamed.
But here's the dirty little secret, they are only living a tiny fraction of their lives, I live my life to the fullest taking in art and culture, seeing the world, like most good people I want to improve and grow.
These people just aren't capable of it, keep your head up pieman that other guy was a toff and we both know they know nothing.

Originally posted by Badfuture
Great stuff pieman, I also have had extensive (dealings lol) with the chavs and I can tell you something, they are as you say, the worst type of people.
It's not about race or about poor individuals just needing a break, these scumbags are happy with their crap little lives sponging off the state, waiting for thier grows and rutting like rats with their addidas princess's.
This is the best these worthless people can do at life. If it wasn't for the weak rap lyrics and their dumb chav families egging them on they might feel ashamed.
But here's the dirty little secret, they are only living a tiny fraction of their lives, I live my life to the fullest taking in art and culture, seeing the world, like most good people I want to improve and grow.
These people just aren't capable of it, keep your head up pieman that other guy was a toff and we both know they know nothing.

This paragraph is exactly why the human race will not progress and will continue to segregate, fenced off with hate.

You think it's all the Chav's own fault? I really hope you are not projecting the paths of your success and motivation onto others, assuming they are the same as you and are capable of the same understanding of life as you? Some people are distracted, some people have love inside but have no idea how to get it out.
Some people don't get the chance to learn the things you did. These people may look like they have chosen this life but you need to look a lot deeper... find a path of influence and follow it. Why is their education limited? Why do they feel it is ok to act aggressive? Why do they behave like, as you put it, scum?

Maybe read some of Howard Becker's theories.

The world will never improve if we fail to understand each other.

And14263 I don't really need any life lessons nor do I want to understand chavs or hear any socio-economic excuses for their lack of advancement in life.
I'm writing from my own personal experience, perhaps you are the one who misunderstands these people.
I'm not talking about the poor or working class here, the people I'm talking about are like bottom feeders, they put their girlfriends on the street so they can buy stella, they also beat them if they don't do it.
They steal anything they can, they refuse to work but expect to be shown respect.
Its liberals like you with your california dreamcatcher nonsence that allows them to thrive.
Stop wasting your time protecting the wrong people.

reply to post by Badfuture

It worries me that you can't see the humanity that has been forceably lost in these people. I can't turn my back on lost souls. I can't help but think what these people would be like if they hadn't been brought up in really hardcore estates.
I also can't carry on replying to posts at 23.49 uk time after a bottle of brandy, post death of King of Pop.
I'd like to carry on the debate when I'm sober. Not in an aggressive 'I'll show you I'm right' way. I respect your views and I know why my views can be seen as crazy and out of touch... If you read my post history you'll see that I blame society for everything... It's a good get out clause... maybe it's too good.
I will say this... I used to hate a lot of people... but life became a lot easier when I began to try and understand why people behave like they do.
I see your point though... can I keep making excuses for these people?

I work in one of the most disadvantaged areas of England in programmes which aim to reduce inequalities for these people.

In the years I have been doing this work I have seen things which have made me very sad and humble. These are human beings, families who are doing the best they can in the situation they are in. Many have poor education and have low self esteem and confidence.

You see constantly the cycle of deprivation i.e. girl has baby at 13, no father and then her daughter has her child in her early teens and on it goes. These girls CHOOSE to get pregnant, it is nothing to do with not having adequate sexual education, they choose this course for several reasons; to get a flat/house and move out, to have something to love, to have something to love them......

The Government throws money at projects to change things for the better, but they are always short term. They will put millions into work that lasts for 5 years max, and then they finish that and start something else. It takes at least 2 to 3 years to build confidence in many of these people enough to start to make changes, we are talking about changing the whole way many families live here.

There is a saying 'there but for the grace of God go I' and this is so true. I have met some nasty bad people in my work and I have also met some of the nicest kindest people you could ever wish to me. There are good and bad at every level.

I work with children who have never had a toothbrush, I come across families who also share a toothbrush.. this is not unusual. I saw a child once with a packet of chocolate chip cookies in their lunch box for their dinner... nothing else, just biscuits..

So there is a lot of work to do, these people don't know where to start to make changes to improve the quality of their lives and those of you who think these people are lazy chavs... think again please. Many of them do not choose to be were they are, they are born into these situations and know nothing else.



[edit on 25-6-2009 by easystreet]

reply to post by easystreet

That's it... that's one of the reasons it's so bad. The child goes to school with only chocolate chips and a mother who doesn't really know better.. the cycle continues.
I said i wouldn't post whilst drunk but your post hit my strings.

And14263 your response perhaps mellowed by the brandy is bursting with humanity, however look out your window, we don't live in that utopia.
Life is hard for everyone rich or poor, we will never pull together, its the human condition.
Society is all we have, the glue if you will.
You can throw as much logic, love or warm fuzzy thoughts at the chav problem but it will not change, the human condition prevents it.
Replacing hate with love? Its still just replacing one coping mechanism with another my friend.
I believe my rage is righteous (not sure of spelling) on this occasion but certainly not when its aimed at you.
That's the thing about society, we are all in it together but some are pulling it apart.

Right I'm knackered now. Unlike the chavs, I have work in the morning lol.

reply to post by Badfuture

Until about 30secs ago I believed if we started humanity from scratch we would develop a perfect society but thinking about it.... The bad things, MSM, TV, faceless aggression... they didn't come from nowhere, they came from people. Therefore the bad things will always exist, they will always appear in a human society.

I also think you're right about the copying mechanism... i only have my views because I've learned from others... and infact, hate is probably easier because you don't need to care if you hate.

Wow. I think I've just taken the next step. I've learned more from this thread, a thread I thought I would be arguing in, than any thread EVER on ATS. If this is the brandy then I'll apologise but I hope it's not.

EDIT: Just saw that :

Originally posted by Badfuture
Right I'm knackered now. Unlike the chavs, I have work in the morning lol.

Brilliant






[edit on 25-6-2009 by and14263]

teenage kids that don't want to stay out all night with their friends, drinking, messing about and not getting up for school in the morning, avoiding study and living on fast food are few and far between, don't care what class you are.

the reason we didn't do it, if we didn't, was because we weren't allowed by our parents. we then stop our children from doing it when they're teenagers. a proportion of kids in every social tier will do it, but if you're middle class or up, there's usually a nice springy safety net provided by daddy.

the reason you are a functioning member of society has almost nothing to do with you, it is almost entirely down to your parents. you have got little enough to be proud of, most of us were dragged to it kicking and screaming. just ask your parents.

it's just luck.
it's possible to move up and out, it absolutely is, but most people couldn't do it. that's a fact. so yeah, you can say chavs are awful but the fact is, most of you wouldn't do any better in that situation, with that background and those challanges.

truth is, most people feel scared and pressured just walking through the area's where "chavs" live, try to imagine living in that situation 24/7 and tell me how you'ld mannage, how you'ld survive and move up in the world.

[edit on 26/6/09 by pieman]

reply to post by pieman


You're abosolutley right in that it's a cycle that breeds itself, but there are more than enough opportunities to climb out of that hole, but many simply do not want too.

Having spoken to (and been friends with) these types of people before in my life, they simply want to bum around, pop out babies and be looked after by state handouts. They see no need to do better, as the State will provide. This is reinforced by the image of their parents (or parent) doing the same and saying the same to them.

There are ways to get round this benefit culture, but many would take some political will and backbone, which we all know none of them have.

For starters, having anyone on jobseekers for more than 6 months should make them immediately liable for service to the community in return for continued handouts.

They should be made to do 16 hours a week voluntary work in return for Jobseekers allowance. This would have many benefits, not least the effect of boosting community cohesion, a sense of pride and worth in the individual and get some much needed jobs done around the country. It also looks good on the CV, making them immediately more employable.

Young mothers should not be given social housing or child benefit. These two things are a major factor in why kids are having kids. It means a lifetime of dossing around at the expense of someone else. I know this, because I know people who think like this, including some relatives. You should not get housing or child benefit unless you are over 18 (or even 21). This would make the kids and babies the parents responsibility and will serve as a wake up call to any others who have this bright idea that life isn't quite so easy.

I see no reason why I should go to work for 48 hours a week, pay £700 in income tax, £1000/month in rent and £150 in council tax, so that people round the corner can stay at home all day, do nothing, get their rent and C/tax paid for, plus free money and have a better life than I do.

Originally posted by pieman
probably a good idea, quit with some dignity at least?

What it is with you and insults? I don't recall attacking you personally, in fact, as I'm about to show, I wasn't even talking about the demographic you fall into. Perhaps you'll understand in a minute...

i never claimed to have grammatical superiority. besides which, of course, capitalisation would be properly described as punctuation, not grammar. grammar is the construction and syntax of a sentence while punctuation is the notation of stops, starts and pauses used to emphasise motion and emotion in the written word.

So what? You criticised my grammar, not punctuation, and I never said your grammar was bad, I was really highlighting your attempt at attacking my English language skills when your own are clearly woefully inadequate. Or maybe you're just lazy.

Originally posted by piemanbut what would i know, i'm just a chav without a clue.

[edit on 25/6/09 by pieman]

NO, YOU ARE NOT, YOU FREAKING IDIOT.

Listen, you just don't get it. You clearly aren't the kind of person who has no respect for laws, you evidently had a decent education and you probably have a job.

You cannot possibly be a chav. Do you understand? A chav is not just a poor person. My whole family is poor. My dad grew up with six brothers in a freaking caravan, for crying out loud, and my mum spent her youth working in a chicken factory. I know what poor people are about. However, my grandparents would have gone out of their minds if my dad had been caught disrespecting his elders, stealing, fighting or doing drugs. They would have gone utterly spare if he had impregnated a woman out of wedlock and the idea of not having a job would have probably given my grandfather a heart attack.

A chav is someone who has no respect for anything. They don't care about society, they don't want to work, they have children out of wedlock with impunity in full awareness that the state will support their debased actions because of the vague notion of "human rights" and they know this will not change.

It is all about respect, for others and yourself, which poor people of the generations before Labour government had in spades, even if they had no money. You could damn well bet that my Nan's kitchen table would have been spotlessly clean even if she didn't have any food to put on it.

Chavs are a product of the handout generation and are the worst kind of scum.

Originally posted by The Last Man on Earth
I wasn't even talking about the demographic you fall into.

oh right, so this comment meant what, exactly?

Well this is what we get for paying for a despicable underclass to raise their useless, bastard children to become chavs.

you meant that kindly did you?
as i said, weather or not you class me as a chav, i'm certainly from that "despicable underclass" and still know plenty of people in it. more each day at this stage.

Listen, you just don't get it. You clearly aren't the kind of person who has no respect for laws, you evidently had a decent education and you probably have a job.

i have no respect for the law, the law is an ass, i have morals but that's a different matter. i have very little formal education, i was to busy doing chav stuff when i should have been in school, but i read a lot. i have a job, for the moment, who knows about next week.

It is all about respect, for others and yourself, which poor people of the generations before Labour government had in spades, even if they had no money.

yeah right. take off the rose tinted glasses. "when i was a lad we knew how t'beehave". come off it.

Chavs are a product of the handout generation and are the worst kind of scum.

if they're a product of anything, it is the breakdown in community which occurred because of slum clearances and the decline of heavy industry manufacturing in the 60's and 70's.

[edit on 26/6/09 by pieman]

[edit on 26/6/09 by pieman]