Originally posted by DevolutionEvolvd
A build-up of Ketones in the blood can be very dangerous for type 1 diabetics and the condition is none as Ketoacidosis.

i don't put much weight (excuse the pun) behind studies except as a signpost to show an avenue of research is required. a study tells you there is a link in certain individuals but tells you nothing about why that link is there. if the mechanism isn't explained and the conclusion is counter intuitive, i tend to believe the study is flawed or misleading until a mechanism is discovered.

the quote above tells me more than any study, if your intent is to slow insulin production drastically you should probably be aware that the risk factors you face are probably similar to those of people who are naturally low in insulin.

you might become slimmer but that doesn't mean you're healthier by default, especially where you're not huge to start with. i see the logic in lowering carb intake to lose weight, thanks to this thread, this is the first time the mechanism has been described to me where i can buy it, but i think the idea that it's enough on it own and that you can gorge on everything else, is dangerous.

will everyone claiming that ` carbs ` are bad please take a second to examin the nutritional breakdown of rice , please ?

its a staple food for billions of people who dont share the wests propesity for obesity

carbs are not bad , wheat is not bad - eating 5000 kcal / day and sedentray life styles is the problem

We all know hormones dont make you fat, ... however they can regulate fat gain, ... and where you gain it. One of the leading causes of weight gain is simple sugars, ... soda, white flour, candy. They cause a huge spike in insulin storing all the calories then making you crash feeling hungry again. ... its like crack for your body.

.... I've been going up and down for years, It amazes me how little people actualy know about nutrition, and physiology. To me weight loss is like a science, ..... but theres so many things you can do which seem effortless, ........ if u want to cheat, make it for breakfast, that way u can burn it off, ... and it will boost your metabolism. .... no carbs after a certain time.
.... what you have to understand is, ... the body cannot burn fat 24 hours a day, .... however the key is to optimize the times when you do burn bodyfat, ...... the greatest being ... when you sleep.
.... I can go on and on ..... I should write a book.

Originally posted by DevolutionEvolvd
I will agree that energy balance does play a role in weight gain/loss. Obesity, however, is a disease of excess fat accumulation. It's a fat problem, not a weight problem. Even in a negative energy balance, if insulin is present in the system, fat will not be released from the cells to be burned for energy.

If the body needs energy, in this case, it will breakdown muscle tissue to convert amino acids into glycogen. Weightloss is a result of this, but it's not fat loss.

-Dev

Edit: Anorexia used to be treated with insulin

So you're telling me that you think if you take an obese person, completely eliminate all food intake and lock them in a room that they will not lose any weight because they have insulin in their system? You do know you just stated an absolute right?

Originally posted by DevolutionEvolvd
Even in a negative energy balance, if insulin is present in the system, fat will not be released from the cells to be burned for energy.

Bold was my doing.

I can see what you're trying to say but you are sadly being blinded here. Their bodies will burn fat. If they exercised, dosing with protein to reduce muscle loss then their body will use the fat. How do you explain obese people that have lost their weight on a negative calorie diet?

I agree that the hormonal role has been underresearched. However saying that obese people cannot lose fat is an absolute load of rubbish. If this were true then all those people who have lost their weight and have to have operations to remove the skin folds must be freaks of nature! In fact they are not freaks, they just had the will power to lose their excess fat.

You have taken a good theory and are pushing it to extremes. Obese people need to take responsibility for their own condition. Oh and finally i will add this. My grandad was an insulin using diabetic and he was very over weight. You stated earlier this isn't possible but there is clear medical evidence to the contrary.

You are applying this science far to broadly and far to simply.

[edit on 27-6-2009 by ImaginaryReality1984]

Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984
So you're telling me that you think if you take an obese person, completely eliminate all food intake and lock them in a room that they will not lose any weight because they have insulin in their system? You do know you just stated an absolute right?

I'm saying they won't lose fat. Weight loss if inevitable is you're starving someone. They're body will break down muscle tissue into amino acids, convert amino acids into glycogen for energy, and fat will remain in the cells, initially. But, if you lock someone in a room long enough without food, their it won't very long, possibly a day or two, for their insulin levels to drop. Ketosis will then begin. This is absolutely true.

Lab studies have shown that animals can die if placed on a starved while injecting insulin in the system. They die without any loss of fat. I guess I need to dig around for these studies. It will take me some time though.

I can see what you're trying to say but you are sadly being blinded here. Their bodies will burn fat. If they exercised, dosing with protein to reduce muscle loss then their body will use the fat. How do you explain obese people that have lost their weight on a negative calorie diet?

The weight loss is seen in muscle loss, by the process described above, and/or fat loss, restricting total calories will in almost every case restrict carbohydrates, thereby diminishing insulin.

Yes, exercise can cause a decrease in body fat. I'm not arguing that. I'm saying it's not needed and will inevitably make you hungrier. I know from personal experience that exercising will burn the blood glucose and therefore lower blood insulin. Because if glucose is burned, insulin is not need to store it.

I agree that the hormonal role has been underresearched. However saying that obese people cannot lose fat is an absolute load of rubbish. If this were true then all those people who have lost their weight and have to have operations to remove the skin folds must be freaks of nature! In fact they are not freaks, they just had the will power to lose their excess fat.

I honestly have no idea where you got the idea that I thought obese people cannot lose fat. Lowering insulin levels by lowering carbohydrate intake will cause fat to be released from fat cells to be burned for energy.

You have taken a good theory and are pushing it to extremes. Obese people need to take responsibility for their own condition. Oh and finally i will add this.

I'm not pushing anything other than facts. These were realized long ago be many researchers and has been thrown under the rug ever since. Long forgotten. This stuff is in biochemistry text books from over 50 years ago.

My grandad was an insulin using diabetic and he was very over weight. You stated earlier this isn't possible but there is clear medical evidence to the contrary.

You're grandad would not have been able to gain weight unless he injected insulin after every meal. My point was that type 1 diabetics can't naturally gain weight unless they supplement with insulin.

You are applying this science far to broadly and far to simply.

I'm really not. I'm telling you that obesity is excess fat accumulation. I'm telling you that fat accumulation is regulated by insulin. I'm telling you that carbohydrates and insulin cause fat to be stored. I'm telling you that excess insulin locks fat in cells. I'm telling you that fat cells are not dump trucks for excess calories.

This is not broad, this is how the body works. Have you watched the video? Just take 1 hour to watch it.

When you make obesity an energy balance problem it becomes psychological, but when you make it a fat deposition problem it becomes physiological. It becomes easier to remedy in the latter.

-Dev

[edit on 27-6-2009 by DevolutionEvolvd]

Originally posted by DevolutionEvolvd
I'm saying they won't lose fat. Weight loss if inevitable is you're starving someone. They're body will break down muscle tissue into amino acids, convert amino acids into glycogen for energy, and fat will remain in the cells, initially. But, if you lock someone in a room long enough without food, their it won't very long, possibly a day or two, for their insulin levels to drop. Ketosis will then begin. This is absolutely true.

I'm afraid this isn't absolutely true. The body prefers fat to muscle as it's an easier source. Whilst i agree that insulin may cause problems it will not stop the body using fat as a resource. The body does not burn just one resource. It constantly burns a mixture of fat and glycogen. Of course we can go deep into the energy systems of the body including ATP but it's a bit pointless here.

As for ketosis this is the result of fat being broken down for energy! Whilst muscle breakdown can also cause this the body will go for the easiest resource first. Fat is converted more simply in the liver than muscle is. I agree there will be some muscle breakdown, without question this is true. However more fat will be gone than muscle as long as they are taking in protein.

What i'm trying to say is that if you sustain any exercise for 10 or more minutes then your body is burning a misture of fat and glycogen. This hasn't been contested in any sports lab, at least none i could find on google but please feel free to link a study saying the body stops burning fat compeltely.

Originally posted by DevolutionEvolvd
Lab studies have shown that animals can die if placed on a starved while injecting insulin in the system. They die without any loss of fat. I guess I need to dig around for these studies. It will take me some time though.

This could be for a whole host of reasons including coma due to low blood sugar! This study you talk of has some big holes. The body would not be able to burn the fat fast enough, that is why they die.

Originally posted by DevolutionEvolvd
The weight loss is seen in muscle loss, by the process described above, and/or fat loss, restricting total calories will in almost every case restrict carbohydrates, thereby diminishing insulin.

Yes, exercise can cause a decrease in body fat. I'm not arguing that. I'm saying it's not needed and will inevitably make you hungrier. I know from personal experience that exercising will burn the blood glucose and therefore lower blood insulin. Because if glucose is burned, insulin is not need to store it.

Hang on so exercise and a sensible body can reduce body fat? Then the old studies were correct all along. As for it not being needed, i would say you are looking for an excuse for the obese lazy people to sit around without having to work. You know what? If they're to lazy to work for health then let them baloon and die. Sorry to be callous but i have no time for lazy people looking for a quick fix.

Originally posted by DevolutionEvolvd

I honestly have no idea where you got the idea that I thought obese people cannot lose fat. Lowering insulin levels by lowering carbohydrate intake will cause fat to be released from fat cells to be burned for energy.

I got the idea because you have made a few absolute statements. You have corrected them in your post here but i had to address them to begin with as they were absolute, set in stone statements.

Originally posted by DevolutionEvolvd
I'm not pushing anything other than facts. These were realized long ago be many researchers and has been thrown under the rug ever since. Long forgotten. This stuff is in biochemistry text books from over 50 years ago.

I know because i've read it. Whilst i absolutely agree that the hormonal aspect of weight gain has been mostly ignored (outside of hypothyroidism) it is a little silly to make such a big thing of it as you are doing.

Originally posted by DevolutionEvolvd

You're grandad would not have been able to gain weight unless he injected insulin after every meal. My point was that type 1 diabetics can't naturally gain weight unless they supplement with insulin.

He would have died actually, his blood sugar would have pummetted and he'd have lapsed into a coma. This is the problem with the animal study you spoke of that diet with fat on them. My grandad would have died overweight because his body would not have kept up with the blood sugar loss. It could not possibly release stored glycogen fast enough, nor converted the fat.

Originally posted by DevolutionEvolvd

I'm really not. I'm telling you that obesity is excess fat accumulation. I'm telling you that fat accumulation is regulated by insulin. I'm telling you that carbohydrates and insulin cause fat to be stored. I'm telling you that excess insulin locks fat in cells. I'm telling you that fat cells are not dump trucks for excess calories.

So what are fat cells if they are not dump trucks for extra calories? Where do they get the energy to grow? As my first post in this thread stated. Yes i agree that insulin could be causing those on a high carb diet to basically be training their body to burn more annd more glycogen in proportion to fat. However if they wanted to lose the weight it would be very simple. Therefore to hype this iinsulin idea is a little silly.

The thread title is also misleading as many people over eat for comfort. For many, maybe most over eating is a psychological problem.

Originally posted by DevolutionEvolvd
This is not broad, this is how the body works. Have you watched the video? Just take 1 hour to watch it.

I watched it in full and i understand it well. I am simply saying you have made several posts that almost seemed to excuse obese people and the thread title itself seems to do that. It seems to take away personal responsibility. I can tell you that right now i'm pretty hungry but i won't eat because i'll gain weight. Due to my own health condition i cannot exercise and the only way to stabalise my weight is to drastically cut calories and be hungry a lot. It's not pleasant i can tell you.

Originally posted by DevolutionEvolvd
When you make obesity an energy balance problem it becomes psychological, but when you make it a fat deposition problem it becomes physiological. It becomes easier to remedy in the latter.

Ok so you can remedy it by using insulin reducing drugs. However the harm caused could be great as these have side effects. You coud reduce it by drastically cutting carbs but that's just playing into the energy balance idea.

If you use the drug option then these people would have to be on them life long as they are obviously unable to stabalise their weight themselves. Let's remember that they wern't born obese, they had to get their themselves.

I seem to remember reading about this in a New Scientist article some time ago, I'm pretty sure it was this same guy.

It is true that an excess of specific food groups (in the OPs case, carbohydrate) can cause hormonal imbalance. This is the reason so many obese people suffer hormone imbalances - because they overeat. The imbalance comes after excessive consumption, not before. In my opinion, Taube is confusing cause and effect.

Members of my own family are morbidly obese. They frequently talk about their thyroid problems for which they must take mediaction. They neglect to mention these problems arose after becoming so very overweight.

Whilst hormones regulate fat distribution, they cannot create fat out of nothing. A hormone imbalance alone does not make you obese; your body can only store what you put in. If you suffer from a medical problem which lowers your metabolism, you must adjust your diet accordingly and eat less. No matter what medicalisation is made, the only way your body can store energy is if there is excess input.

Low carb diets ARE very effective for weight loss, but are not particularly healthy. The unpleasant side effects are widely reported. By eating a modest balance of the food groups and partaking in substantial exercise as a lifestyle (not a stopgap solution), the obesity epidemic could be eradicated without the need to delete a whole food group.

It is important to remember that carbohydrates have always formed the staple component of many different diets - cereal crops, bread and potatoes in the UK and Europe, rice, noodles and dumplings in most of Asia etc etc. It has been this way for generations. Obesity, however, is a very recent phenomenon owing to the excessive consumption of every food group, the explosion in "junk food" and the sedentary lifestyle of modernity.



[edit on 28-6-2009 by Dumbfirefly]

Originally posted by Dumbfirefly
It is important to remember that carbohydrates have always formed the staple component of many different diets - cereal crops, bread and potatoes in the UK and Europe, rice, noodles and dumplings in most of Asia etc etc. It has been this way for generations. Obesity, however, is a very recent phenomenon owing to the excessive consumption of every food group, the explosion in "junk food" and the sedentary lifestyle of modernity.

Couldn't have said it better. These horrid foods that are put out containing tons of chemicals which are proven to upset the body like MSG, trans fats, various E numbers, excessive salt and sugar along with a host of other chemicals are one of the major problems. People eat these foods because they are easy to make and they light up the brain like they're addictive.

After eating a very healthy diet for years i can't stand those foods. They're either too salty, too sugary or just generally over powering. However people eating them every day often add extra salt and tons of ketchup and other stuff. The sheer amount of calories alone in these foods is shocking. If you ever stop to read the packets you wouldn't believe it. A simple ready made curry can contain 800 calories! If i made the same curry at home it would contain around 500 calories at most and contain none of the bad chemicals.

On top of all this as you state we have the sedentary lifestyle of people these days. They eat all this calorie filled food and then sit in front of the TV or computer and do absolutely nothing to burn off what they've eaten. We can talk about hormonal problems and this insulin issue all we like but in the end the answer is simple, get off your arses more and eat better!

Our ancestors would be hunting, walking miles stalking their pray. They would expend energy gathering food and then they would be looking after their family on top of this. Not to emntion heavy carrying and lifting of fire wood and other items.

I'm just tired of obese people who had no health problems before becoming obese complaining that it isn't their fault.

There are many causes of insulin resistance. It can be pregnancy, obesity, medication, metabolic syndrome and so on. The fact that obesity is listed as a cause of insulin resistance (and, relatedly, type 2 diabetes) says that it is not a cause of obesity, per se.

At best, it is a cause of increased appetite. Just like my hormone contraceptive pill is. When I started taking it, I watched what I ate. It worked.

In the wikipedia page you linked, there is an interesting quote that I feel puts the relevance of Insulin Resistance in the issue of the causes and effects of obesity into good perspective:

"The primary treatment for insulin resistance is exercise and weight loss"

Like I said before, most hormone problems are an effect of obestiy, not a cause. Regardless, hormones cannot make fat out of nothing; you can only gain the fat from food intake.

[edit on 29/6/09 by Dumbfirefly]

Originally posted by Dumbfirefly

Like I said before, most hormone problems are an effect of obestiy, not a cause. Regardless, hormones cannot make fat out of nothing; you can only gain the fat from food intake.

That is what baffrles me here. If these people who are going on about insulin resistance and the role of insulin took an obese person and starved them then that person would lose weight. It's really that simple.

Whilst insulin resistance may increase obesity it should be noted that insulin resistance usually comes about in healthy people when they indulge in the wrong foods. This is why we're seeing more obese children, because they are gorging on the sugar laden foods. The body learns to adapt and increases insulin production and this becomes a vicious cycle.

They start gaining weight because they are taking in to many calories. Their body becomes resistant to insulin and so the weight packs on faster. In the end though they could increase their insulin resistance by stopping their intake of bad foods!

Honestly if you take someone with massive insulin resistance and eliminate all refined sugar (or as much as possible) whilst also limiting the amount of simple carbohydrates they eat and finally limit the number of calories they intake to less than they need, you will see a dramatic loss of weight and their insulin resistance will clear up. This happens because the body no longer needs to produce so much insulin. Interestingly the people who are obese and start healthy diets often end up with headaches. It could be argued that this is because their body has a load of insulin circulating and no sugar to use it on.

In future they may be more susceptible to insulin resistance as their body has learnt that behavior but as long as they eat well they won't gain weight again.

I watched a program the other day about the World's fattest teenager (60 stone or half a ton!!!!) and he was only 19yo.

He had surgery to remove 5 stone of fat from his waist and when he got home, the first thing his mother said to him, after he waddled to his bed, was this...

"Do you want a hot dog?"

I pi5sed myself; comedy gold that one.

[edit on 29-6-2009 by PrisonerOfSociety]

Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984
That is what baffrles me here. If these people who are going on about insulin resistance and the role of insulin took an obese person and starved them then that person would lose weight. It's really that simple.

No doubt, but there's no need to starve them.

Whilst insulin resistance may increase obesity it should be noted that insulin resistance usually comes about in healthy people when they indulge in the wrong foods. This is why we're seeing more obese children, because they are gorging on the sugar laden foods. The body learns to adapt and increases insulin production and this becomes a vicious cycle.

Those wrong foods are the ones that spike insulin.....again. All of these problems; obesity, insulin resistance, fat gain, diabetes, hypertriglyceridemia, bad cholesterol, atherosclerosis.....are all symptoms of hyperinsulinemia; which, by the way, is caused by overconsumption of carbohydrates, especially processed carbs.

A child starts this vicious cycle in the womb. So, if their mother eats a high carb diet during pregnancy, they will, unfortunately, have a higher chance of developing obesity. It's the Insulin again.

They start gaining weight because they are taking in to many calories. Their body becomes resistant to insulin and so the weight packs on faster.

They're gaining fat because there is an overabundance of insulin in the blood, because they eat too many carbohydrates. You know why insulin resistant individuals gain so much weight? It's not the calories, it's the amount of insulin in the blood.

Honestly if you take someone with massive insulin resistance and eliminate all refined sugar (or as much as possible) whilst also limiting the amount of simple carbohydrates they eat and finally limit the number of calories they intake to less than they need, you will see a dramatic loss of weight and their insulin resistance will clear up.

All you need to do is remove diminish insulin in the blood and fat will begin to pour out of the fat cells to be burned. And yes, reducing caloric intake will aid the fat loss process.

Originally posted by Dumbfirefly
There are many causes of insulin resistance. It can be pregnancy, obesity, medication, metabolic syndrome and so on. The fact that obesity is listed as a cause of insulin resistance (and, relatedly, type 2 diabetes) says that it is not a cause of obesity, per se.

Obesity is not a cause of insulin resistance. Hyperinsulinemia is. And hyperinsulinemia also causes obesity.

In the wikipedia page you linked, there is an interesting quote that I feel puts the relevance of Insulin Resistance in the issue of the causes and effects of obesity into good perspective:

"The primary treatment for insulin resistance is exercise and weight loss"

Like I said before, most hormone problems are an effect of obestiy, not a cause. Regardless, hormones cannot make fat out of nothing; you can only gain the fat from food intake.

[edit on 29/6/09 by Dumbfirefly]

That's the current though, yes. But it doesn't address the core cause of obesity and insulin resistance. It's insulin. Yes, most hormone problems are an effect of obesity and even insulin resistance, but the original one that caused it all is insulin. That's THE hormone that controls, regulates or affects all other hormones in the body, so when it's out of whack, so are the others.

Insulin is also the ONLY hormone that lowers blood sugar while there are multiple hormones that raise blood sugar. Insulin lowers glucose by storing it as fat. Dietary Fat cannot be stored without Alpha Glycerol Phosphate, an enzyme that converts triglycerides into fatty-acids. An enzyme that is only found in carbohydrates. Fat will not be released from fat cells if insulin is elevated.

Insulin, a hormone, won't make fat out of nothing but in the absence of insulin and alpha glycerol phosphate, fat will not be stored.