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And the irony is this is true for any belief. Whatever the belief may be there will be fanatics at some level.
Originally posted by pieman
rubbish.
we're supposed to believe that a god, who is omnipotent, knows everything that ever was and ever will be, who knows before we're born weather we will be good christian fundi's or rabid, ignorant athiests, needs to set up an elaborate series of traps we won't be able to see for most of existence in order to test our faith?
and this belief in the most convoluted and clearly illogical story is more important to god than your behavior towards other people and the world around you?
and then you say god loves us? sounds to me like your god is a drunken redneck looking for an excuse to beat his red headed step child. i'll take my chances, thanks.
Originally posted by Jim Scott
There will never be absolute proof of either creation or otherwise. That is the way God intended it to be.
Originally posted by pieman
reply to post by Jim Scott
let me try to explain this a different way to you jim.
there are clearly contradictions in the bible.
if you are a christian you need to reconcile this fact. you can either decide it means that a)god makes mistakes and later corrects them, so he isn't perfect and omnipotent, or it means that b)god didn't actually write the bible but inspired man to do so. although god is perfect, man is not, and sometimes misinterpreted the inspiration and made mistakes which god later corrected.
either way, the bible can't be taken as literally the last word and truth from a perfect god.
Originally posted by pieman
reply to post by Jim Scott
let me try to explain this a different way to you jim.
there are clearly contradictions in the bible.
if you are a christian you need to reconcile this fact. you can either decide it means that a)god makes mistakes and later corrects them, so he isn't perfect and omnipotent, or it means that b)god didn't actually write the bible but inspired man to do so. although god is perfect, man is not, and sometimes misinterpreted the inspiration and made mistakes which god later corrected.
either way, the bible can't be taken as literally the last word and truth from a perfect god.
Originally posted by Jim Scott
Originally posted by pieman
reply to post by Jim Scott
let me try to explain this a different way to you jim.
there are clearly contradictions in the bible.
if you are a christian you need to reconcile this fact. you can either decide it means that a)god makes mistakes and later corrects them, so he isn't perfect and omnipotent, or it means that b)god didn't actually write the bible but inspired man to do so. although god is perfect, man is not, and sometimes misinterpreted the inspiration and made mistakes which god later corrected.
either way, the bible can't be taken as literally the last word and truth from a perfect god.
Rather than my trying to think of what you consider to be contradictions, could you please volunteer one for analysis?
The concept of inerrancy in the Bible does not refer to the existing texts, but to the original autographs. Translations can create errors.
Originally posted by Jim Scott
Rather than my trying to think of what you consider to be contradictions, could you please volunteer one for analysis?
The concept of inerrancy in the Bible does not refer to the existing texts, but to the original autographs. Translations can create errors.
Originally posted by pieman
so what does common sence tell you about stealing from strangers or people you don't like?
Originally posted by Kaytagg
I don't steal from my friends because we have a mutual understanding not to hurt each other, and to respect each other.
this isn't true, just clearly isn't. it's just ignorance on your part. the only unifying factor among christians is that they believe jesus was something to do with god, they don't even all believe he was god.
Yet the same argument still works for Christians who share the exact same belief system, laws, morality, etc,
now weather or not hitler believed in god or not is irrelivant, it's not an argument that is worthwhile because the point still stands if i just mention the other three.
Should it have any part in 21st century discourse?
it's the single most important element in the development of our society and civilization, so there really isn't any choice in the matter. it really doesn't make any difference weather you believe in it or not, it is the basis of our political system, justice system and social/moral system.
if you don't understand it, know about it and have the ability to apply it to society your going through life half blind.
Originally posted by Kaytagg
Therefore you don't steal, even from strangers, because you assume they won't steal from you.
'fraid not, a christian is anyone who follows the teaching of christ, acceptance of his divinity isn't required or, IMHO, particularly useful.
I think this is disputable. I was always taught that to be a christian, the first thing you have to accept is that Jesus is Lord, and the only way to heaven is through him.
if you want to take a mass murdering sociopath at his word, that's your problem.
Just for clarification, it seems abundantly clear that he did. When he says he is a Christian doing the Lords work, I take his word for it.
western judeo-christian civilisation.
There are plenty of much more significant and important developments in "our" civilization (whatever you mean by that).
If you're talking about America, I would put the revolutionary war,
the idea of a national identity as we understand it, an identity of a people outside of the people that rule you, seems to have it's origins of thought in the hebrew culture and, even if it also arose in other places, like china, the influence of the bible on middle age european thought certainly instilled it in our culture. this idea of a national identity, despite the restriction of borders and jurisdiction, nationalism, is what sparked WW2.
world war II,
absolutely based in religious thought. because it's sinful for one man to lend money to another at interest, a corporation, not a man, should do it and then give the profit to men, avoiding the sin.
Central banking, Corporate personhood,
absolute power corrupts absolutely is the philisophic basis of this one, again, biblical in origen.
presidential term limits, etc
It's definitely not the basis of our political system (Almost none of the founding fathers were Christian), justice system (how do you explain legal abortion if Christianity has any part of our justice system?), or social/moral system. It might be part of YOU'RE social/moral system, but don't confuse what you covet with what others covet.
Originally posted by The Riley Family
Jim Scott and Christians,
Does this way of thinking make sense? How is there supposed to be credibility in ideas like this or creation in 7 24 hour periods when it is obvious this is not the case. It would be beneficial for you to stop introducing non sensible thought and doctrines into interpretation of the scriptures. It only gives Atheists fuel for their assault.
Romans 1:19 because that which is known of God is revealed in them, for God revealed it to them. 1:20 For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity; that they may be without excuse. And without excuse we are. Creation itself is absolute proof of itself, what is called creationism is lacking proof because it is a fanciful idea based on fanciful thought and not on reason, reality, or even understanding scriptures.
Religious folks accept their fanciful ideas and expect others to do the same while Atheists who see through this "rubbish" who seemingly don't want to believe in the scriptures use the "rubbish" to dispute these fanciful ideas as if it disputes the scriptures themselves. Atheists don't seem understand that the bible itself advocates for their cause in proving the fanciful ideas are exactly what they are. Disproving a supposed bible believing believer's beliefs (say that three times fast) does not invalidate the scriptures but actually validates it.
Does any one think that maybe the bible does not contradict itself but instead lack of understanding it correctly is what makes it appear to then the ignorant as contradiction?
There are probably overlapping understandings.
It has the appearance that the real reason religious folks interpret the bible the way they do and self indoctrinate their religion is because they really don't want to believe what is in the bible as being wholely true. It also has the appearance that the reason the Atheists use those interpretations and doctrines to try to dispute the bible is because they don't want to believe what is in the bible as being wholely true. Hey wait a minute does that mean Athiests and Christians actually believe in the same thing?
Let's come together by interpreting what is as what is. Then there will no longer be Atheist or Christian but fellow believers in what is the truth.
The proof exists in the truth, and the truth proves itself by what is true.
One proof of this is that jesus is the antichrist, check out the facts.
www.newhopeforall.info
[edit on 25-6-2009 by The Riley Family]
Originally posted by pieman
reply to post by Jim Scott
it seems to be that you require an awful lot of "interpretation" in order to make the bible fit into your world view.
i tell you what, this little quote seems pretty clear to me "what is called creationism is lacking proof because it is a fanciful idea based on fanciful thought and not on reason, reality, or even understanding scriptures." i don't think a lot of interpretation is required there, sums it up fairly well. particularly where understanding rather than knowledge of the scripture is specified.