New discovery: Humans playing the flute for at least 35,000 years, page 2

reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan

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I think you hit on an interesting idea. Yes, they had musical instruments...but were they to make pretty music, or for another purpose? Let me explain...

I imagine you are fairly correct in both ideas...although their idea of 'pretty music' and our are likely at odds

You ever noticed that a happy child is a humming child? The love of rhythm and then melody are innate. That they would involve music in shamanistic practice seems highly probable. They are believed to have banged rocks together for beats and humming and chanting would follow. It seems a reasonable idea that they would use the flute too. I bet the drum pre-dates the flute but hollow logs and animal skins will be long disappeared.......

Modern hunter-gatherers use shamanism and 'magical plants' to connect to the underworld and 'spirits.' They also use drum beats, chanting and dancing allied with ritual. I reckon we can look to our present sometimes to see behaviors from the past.

reply to post by rogerstigers

I would say this is another step along the line to proving that. A musical instrument, especially one that plays in good pitch, indicates an understanding of math and abstract concepts, at least on a nacent level. I would have to wonder if perhaps this is from the beginnings of the prior age of man?

You might be interested in the Ishango Bone. It's thought to be the earliest example of a mathematical table that works on base 12 principles.

‘The first example of a well-worked-out mathematical table’, says de Heinzelin, ‘dates from the dynastic period in Egypt. There are some clues, however, that suggest the existence of cruder systems in predynastic times. Because the Egyptian number system was a basis and a prerequisite for the scientific achievements of classical Greece, and thus for many of the developmentsin science that followed, it is even possible that the modern world owes a great one of its greatest debts to the people who lived at Ishango. Whether or not this is the case, it is remarkable that the oldest clue to the use of a number system by man dates back to the Central Africa of the Mesolithic period. No excavations in Europe have turned up such a hint’.

The Ishango Artefact: the Missing Base 12 Link

I don't know about the paper's conclusions, but it's a very interesting object indeed and originates in the heart of Africa.

reply to post by warrenb

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As the flute played it's first tune, the bees had been doing all the work.
Now the honey bee is from out of this world.
I have thousands around for the pending 'hard' times.

While Mr. Monsanto hunts the bee, the bee ultimately stings it's offspring.
Mr. Monsanto via Codex Alementarious is about to born itself extinct. This is by 'design'. Nature rules in the End; Always has.

Human Nature rules from within when it bears it's own compass. The people appear trapped in a Bermuda Triangle of 'Change' they can believe in?

It should be quite apparent by now, the only change you see is the mask fed by it's tele-prompter. Time to pull that plug? I prefer one to speak from within than from without. I'm sure you'd agree. It's only natural?

As I insert 'The International" into the DVD player, I ask myself, what's new?

Edit to International.

'Good' night folks.




[edit on 25-6-2009 by Perseus Apex]

reply to post by nikiano

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Can you provide a link to the show that features one of these flutes? I'd love to hear it to get a better idea of the sound

BTW...lots of lost civilizations is a nice idea, but there isn't any evidence for it yet.

reply to post by warrenb

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So, taking common sense into the equation..
Which came first?
Farming and grain storage? or this flute?

It seems daft to think that something as technical as making a musical instrument would come before the need to satisfy ones hunger over a sustained period such as winter..

We still consider a days work to put food on the table a priority before we indulge in hobbies such as music or writing here on ATS. Why should it have been any different back then?

I find it hard to believe that a flute is older than grain storage, particularly in the area this flute was found.. Winter is a hard time at the best of times and food can be very scarce so we must have had some ability to store food in order to while away the winter hours making flutes and to keep ourselves entertained or spiritually enlightened.
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reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan

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One thing we must consider is the effect that any music would have had on a culture that does not have 24 hour global music concerts in an attempt to end hunger and/or poverty.

Today we take it for granted. We walk around with our ipods and gigs of music tracks, listening to it all as a matter of fact. Occasionally we go to a concert or night club and we tend to fet more from the collective groupings of people than we appreciate the music.

For example, who remembers seeing REM perform 'Everybody hurts' at live aid?
The mood that the song, combined with the crowd, created really 'strikes a chord' whithin us.

The effect of one flute on a culture that has just begun to lay down the drum sticks must have been huge. An instrument you can carry with you and play at any time in any place could have been deeply 'shamanistic'. Especially when you're in a chamber, such as cave and you're getting all of the flutes notes rebounded back at you from all directions.

Caves may have been nothing more than the equivalent of a modern amplifier. Used in a way to enhance the musical emotions the instruments held.

Originally posted by Kandinsky
reply to post by nikiano

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Can you provide a link to the show that features one of these flutes? I'd love to hear it to get a better idea of the sound

BTW...lots of lost civilizations is a nice idea, but there isn't any evidence for it yet.

I heard it on NPR, so you should be able to go to their website and search "ancient flute" or something similar, and find it there. I think they post all their shows online, if I'm not mistaken.

The radio show mentioned earlier is still available to listen...A Little Flute Music To Warm The Cave. It doesn't sound much like Ian Anderson from Jethro Tull and reminds me of kids practicing recorder...flat. It's only 3 and a half minutes and well worth a listen

Monkey tool usage: Monkey tool usage: Hammer and Anvil

Notice that they use tools and plan ahead by having piles of stones to throw at the jaguar.

Damn! That Monkey tool usage: Hammer and Anvil video was quite good!

Just as the narrator says, we are beginning to understand as a species that other animals may be just as smart as we are but live different lives than us.

But if their buildings and tools are mistaken for human ones, they are on the path to becoming like us.

Originally posted by warrenb
Creating and playing a flute requires some level of skill that most humans even today would not be able to do.

Not true.

I'm a flutemaker; it's surprisingly easy to do. Ocarinas are a bit trickier, but they're not that hard.

Here's a link to a boatload of pages... I used many of these when I started and many are based on traditional methods that are very very old:
www.shakuhachi.com...

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