Archeologists have uncovered surprisingly sophisticated grain storage that PREDATES plant domesticat

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posted on Jun, 24 2009 @ 08:07 PM
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Originally posted by Kandinsky
That's an interesting discovery. It doesn't challenge the essence of accepted dates though. It refers to the earliest evidence of grain storage, domesticated plants came later.


Good call. My first thought as well, that there's a big difference between storage and agriculture, though it's a good first step into sedentism.




posted on Jun, 24 2009 @ 08:07 PM
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Originally posted by RuneSpider
reply to post by deloneninja
 


There are nomadic tribes that do not practice agriculture much at all, yet have well developed instruments for festivals and ceremonies.
It's not a question of which is easier, but which is focused on more heavily.


the point im trying to make though is that humans are very capable of figuring things out. I think saying that they did not know how to get food periodically from the same bunch of plants (is this even considered agriculture?) 35,000 years ago is somewhat absurd, especially when its shown they know how to do other things like make instruments.



posted on Jun, 24 2009 @ 08:22 PM
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reply to post by deloneninja
 


The point here is not that they didn't get the food from the same plants, but that they did so, and had enough to set aside for later.

There's a difference. Agriculture would be the planting of crops, the domestication of favored plants, and vegetables, and fruits.

Which was probably discovered after they started being able to store grain. This is probably near where agriculture got started.



posted on Jun, 24 2009 @ 08:33 PM
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reply to post by warrenb
 


Im not missiing the point at all, in fact Iwas spot on, as was attested to by subsequent information, they were harvesting wild grains and storing them. It was the need to store and prepare food by foraging peoples that at the basis of the many advances in our way of life. The first uses of pottery can be traced back to foraging societies, and as this discovery points to and so can the idea of building permanent buildings and larger settlements.
And they were still chipping stone tools and occasionaly poking each other with sticks, as primative foraging societies still do to this day.
It doesnt really change anything all that much it just shows that foraging societies in the middle east were thinking of the future by saving grains they harvested for later use.
Ntive americans of the northern midwest harvested wild rice from boats, yet practiced no other agriculture.
Side note, the philipino martial art escrima( the two sticks system) has its roots in wild rice harvesting. One stick is used to gather the stalks togtether and pull them over the side of a canoe, the the other stick is slid down the first to knock the grains into the boat.
The exact same method used by native americans to gather wild rice into canoes.


These people would have been developmentaly on par with many native american tribes in california and elsewhere in the new world, or many other pre agricultural peoples around the world.
There are still tribes in New guinea and africa that practice this type of lifestyle.

I would also bet that the real origins of agriculture are to found in the root crops, they dont need to proccesed to make them edible.
And in the primative foraging/agricultural societies the root crops are the basic staples in most cases.
It is still fascinating stuff nonethe less.

It took us literaly hundreds of thousands of years to get to that point



posted on Jun, 24 2009 @ 08:48 PM
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Originally posted by RuneSpider
reply to post by deloneninja
 


The point here is not that they didn't get the food from the same plants, but that they did so, and had enough to set aside for later.

There's a difference. Agriculture would be the planting of crops, the domestication of favored plants, and vegetables, and fruits.

Which was probably discovered after they started being able to store grain. This is probably near where agriculture got started.


I gotcha. I still think people would be smart enough to keep some seeds from favored plants with them and plant them though. Just not on a largely productive scale.



posted on Jun, 24 2009 @ 09:47 PM
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reply to post by warrenb
 


I find this very interesting, according to biblical sources the dead sea is the place where Sodom and Gamorah was before the lights where put out for them. According to the book of Genesis it was a thriving and prosperous place until being destroyed by fire. Many archeologists for many years disputed that account claiming the environment of the area has been inhospitable for life for millions of years...Hmmm. Then why would there be a need for a grainery?

The more time we keep digging the more the biblical account is validated.

Check out the pure sulphur balls that can be lit with a lighter found right on the surface neer the red sea. More proof? users.netconnect.com.au...



posted on Jun, 25 2009 @ 12:16 AM
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reply to post by warrenb
 


I think you're right.

It's estimated that the great pyramid of Giza was built around 10,000 years ago and it's probably much, much older than that as some archaeologists have stated and talked about.

Yet we're to believe that they didn't have graineries and plant domestication back then?

That's pretty ridiculous to think that a society like ancient egypt could reach such a pinnacle of engineering and construction.. Yet they would be too stupid to plant their own crops? I just don't buy it.

-ChriS



posted on Jun, 25 2009 @ 12:55 AM
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Yes, we are 'much' older than one may have been led to believe.
Led to 'believe'?
What?
I'd rather not get into it.
I'm sure you understand.



posted on Jun, 25 2009 @ 01:07 AM
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Presumably the granary was used to hide the grain from the dinosaurs



posted on Jun, 25 2009 @ 01:35 AM
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reply to post by warrenb
 

Data at the Camelot Project web site suggests that there is a lot of archaeology work going on in the mid-East and that some extremely old sites have been discovered. One opinion was that one recent find was 70,000 years old. I doubt this work will reach the main stream media.

The implication was that various factions are sponsoring digs in the hopes of discovering advanced technologies left here by ancient aliens that could help them stay in control of things here.



posted on Jun, 25 2009 @ 01:52 AM
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[edit on 25-6-2009 by Kandinsky]



posted on Jun, 25 2009 @ 02:22 AM
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reply to post by l_e_cox
 


But are some of those artifacts you talked about really that old?

All that suggests some of them really are that old are "opinions". I just don't find that very convincing. And then there are People making money off of this stuff at auctions and on sites like ebay.

If a scientist can say that an artifact is much older than everyone else sais, you never know. They might be getting a cut.

legal and illegal sales of such objects can fetch pretty mind-boggling sums of money. Generally, the older the artifact the more expensive it becomes. Whose to say he isn't just doing this to ride the gravy train? Maybe even so he can write a new book about his "opinions".

-ChriS

[edit on 25-6-2009 by BlasteR]



posted on Jun, 25 2009 @ 04:30 AM
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An ancient seed Vault ?
Would just rock if that was the case ..



posted on Jun, 25 2009 @ 06:20 AM
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reply to post by warrenb
 


Fact is: it was built by squirrels as a teaching-tool for the degenerate humans. Many squirrels then left the planet in disgust at our stupidity. It was taking us far too long to work out what they were for. Most stayed, they enjoyed our silly antics so much. Some still visit from the planet Nuthouse. You can read their contributions on this site ...



posted on Jun, 25 2009 @ 06:44 AM
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Seriously folks, if the development of agriculture and its impact on society interests you: read "Guns, germs and steel" by Jared Diamond. As for dates in archeology, remember they are always subject to revision. The likelihood of finding evidence for anything diminshes as we go back in time. First: find the haystack buried under millenia of rubble. Then: locate the needle (hurry, it's getting smaller all the time).
If it's certainty you're after: join a religion.



posted on Jun, 25 2009 @ 07:05 AM
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Originally posted by BlasteR

It's estimated that the great pyramid of Giza was built around 10,000 years ago and it's probably much, much older than that as some archaeologists have stated and talked about.

Yet we're to believe that they didn't have graineries and plant domestication back then?

That's pretty ridiculous to think that a society like ancient egypt could reach such a pinnacle of engineering and construction.. Yet they would be too stupid to plant their own crops? I just don't buy it.

-ChriS

I think you'll find that the type of complex society required to throw labour into monumental architecture is based upon having a class of people who produced enough food to feed everybody else.

That requires a stable food source, created by plant and animal domestication. Anthro 101.



posted on Jun, 25 2009 @ 08:08 AM
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isn't the current date of domestication just the point where the two mutations come together to form our "convenient" wheat? [nothing falls to the ground but still easily threshed]

what you do with the stuff after you have it is apparently not new.
Grinding flour in Upper Palaeolithic Europe (25 000 years bp) [this is a pdf from antiquity.ac.uk]



posted on Jun, 25 2009 @ 08:54 AM
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Originally posted by kidflash2008
reply to post by warrenb
 


The truth is it is not known when agriculture actually started. This find pushes the date further down a little. If they ever do a thorough study of the underwater ruins around the world, they may find agriculture started 20,000 to 20,000 years ago or beyond.

Now you've gone and done it. That is one area of research (in the bleedin obvious category) that established science does not want to do. They don't want us to switch our brains on like this:

1. Vast majority of civilisation is built adjacent to sea coasts and river deltas.
2. Pre last ice age such areas are several metres lower than today ie under the sea.
3. To establish the existance of pre ice age civilisations you have to look underwater.
4. History may need re-writing.
5. Now if the ice melted, sea levels rose and swathes of civilisation sank what sort of flood myths would this invoke?!?!?



posted on Jun, 25 2009 @ 09:12 AM
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Originally posted by malcr Now you've gone and done it. That is one area of research (in the bleedin obvious category) that established science does not want to do.


Indeed! Except for stuff like this...
But that doesn't count, cuz you didn't know about it, right? Dig a little...


Archeological Evidence Of Human Activity Found Beneath Lake Huron
ScienceDaily (June 9, 2009) — More than 100 feet deep in Lake Huron, on a wide stoney ridge that 9,000 years ago was a land bridge, University of Michigan researchers have found the first archeological evidence of human activity preserved beneath the Great Lakes...Its surface is relatively unspoiled, unlike coastal areas where scientists believe other archeological sites exist. These coastal sites would now be deeply covered in sediment, so they're often considered lost forever.www.sciencedaily.com...


[edit on 25-6-2009 by JohnnyCanuck]



posted on Jun, 25 2009 @ 09:37 AM
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In our limited version of history, it tells us that mankind settled and civilized 10,000 years ago. This is wrong. Remember in that time there have been at least two documented cases of dark ages that have come and gone.

During those times of fear, information that was contrary to the ruling few was destroyed. What was left is what we have to go on.

When discoveries such as this come along that defy conventional wisdom, does it make you wonder what information has been lost to time? How far has man come, just to stumble and fall. His knowledge lost to fear and those that would destroy it. Our civilization builds itself up again just to fall once more at the hands of those that fear us.

Makes you wonder doesn't it?





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