Why all the hating on Israel?

Originally posted by coolieno99
Usually when Jews arrived in an host country, they will usually rise to the top of its society, and hold important and influential positions in government, businesses, and academia in due time.

It's this extreme fear of the lost of control of one's country, that slowly transform itself into hatred.

Good observation. They should take low level menial jobs, not aspire to professions, business management, ownership, not educate their children.

Then everyone will love them.


Mike



[edit on 1-7-2009 by mmiichael]

reply to post by ravenshadow13

Hoy Raven! always a pleasure.

I think that Israel would stop playing the anti-semitic card if people stopped being anti-semitic.

You are somewhat right there, regular JEWS would not use that card, but I think the Israeli government still would. They thrive on aid from the US and Germany, and donations from Jews worldwide, so without pity they would cease to exist. It is a necessity to their survival.

that Religion is at fault because if it didn't exist, Palestinians and Israelis would be fine side by side.

I disagree, because it is mostly about power, if they were all atheists I think the problem would still exist (like the South Park episode 'wars are caused by religion' )

I also think that some people feel guilty about the Holocaust and take it out on Israel.

I do not understand this, if you felt guilty about hitting someone, why would you hit them again? I think you might have mixed up your words.

I think maybe some people expect Israel's government to act perfect and not make the same mistakes as other countries do all the time?

No, just to act civilised, they are one of the most modern countries in the world and treat their subjects like #, with checkpoints and illegal settlements and harrassment from settlers... and the government generally turns a blind eye. Luckily Obama is pressuring them to stop this.

I think people hold on to this false Zionism/Jew-power thing so that they have someone to hate, all the time, no matter what. Since it's not okay to hate blacks anymore and all.

But black is not an ideology, it is merely a skin pigment, it makes zero sense to hate because someone was born that way. But ideology are chosen.
I think what you are mixing up is political zionism vs religious zionism. There is nothing wrong with wanting to be nearer to god (religious). But political involves exploiting these same moves to further your power grab. When they want land to expand their empire they say 'god gave us the land' as an excuse. You can use religion to get your way around the law! Example, in high school I did not know an answer on a biology exam so I wrote a passage from Genesis and my teacher gave me marks not because I disbelieve evolution or anything, it was just because she could not really tell me it was wrong haha.

I think that most of the people here have no connection to the country and have no right to say things that they say, they've never been there, and they're probably not very educated on the history of Israel or Judaism at all. It's best to ignore them.

I like to think that I am well-learned, and have connection, being Catholic, thank you.

I apologise on behalf of those I should not be apologising for that insulted you for your opinion. But it is a touchy subject. I cannot stand the people such as Dooper who ignore anything bad Israel does... Israels government is just as terrorist in my opinion as HAMAS is.

reply to post by Ridhya


I'd like to address a few of the points raised in this post.

You are somewhat right there, regular JEWS would not use that card, but I think the Israeli government still would. They thrive on aid from the US and Germany, and donations from Jews worldwide, so without pity they would cease to exist. It is a necessity to their survival.

I don't believe this is true. I haven't seen one instance of the Israeli government using the anti-Semitism "card" as you describe it to win an argument or silence debate. In fact from what I've seen the Israeli government encourages debate and discussion. Three times now PM Netanyahu has stated his willingness for "talks without preconditions" with Palestinians and Arab leaders. On all occasions this has been rejected.

As for thriving on other nations' goodwill (in the form of financial support), I haven't seen any evidence for this either. Israel is a country of 13 million people I believe, who pay taxes to their government the same as you or I do. If would help your argument here if you can support it with facts and figures.

No, just to act civilised, they are one of the most modern countries in the world and treat their subjects like #, with checkpoints and illegal settlements and harrassment from settlers... and the government generally turns a blind eye. Luckily Obama is pressuring them to stop this

Checkpoints are a sad reality of countries that have real and present security threats. Ulster was riddled with them. It's not pretty, it's a pain in the ass for everyone that has to go through them on a daily or weekly basis, and they cost an extraordinary amount of money and resources to maintain - nobody wants them - but they have been extremely effective from a counter-terrorism point of view. I'm sure there is not an Israeli alive that wouldn't prefer there to be no checkpoints or border controls, but that's not the reality they live in. Security > Convenience.

As for "harassment from settlers", do you think this only happens on one side? What about the years and years of Arab violence against Jews? Neither side of these skirmishes are collectively victims or aggressors. There are Palestinian aggressors and Jewish aggressors, and there are Palestinian victims and Jewish victims.

A separate discussion would be the respective rights to legal recourse, and whether this is equal depending on whether you're a Palestinian or an Israeli. I'm not sure on this, but I know that Israeli human rights groups such as Peace Now have been campaigning in this area.

I think what you are mixing up is political zionism vs religious zionism. There is nothing wrong with wanting to be nearer to god (religious). But political involves exploiting these same moves to further your power grab. When they want land to expand their empire they say 'god gave us the land' as an excuse.

I find it interesting that you describe Israel and Zionism as the expansion of "an empire". Have you looked at a map and seen how tiny Israel is? It's smaller than the boot of Italy. I'd hardly describe this as an empire, or a land grab.

But now we're into a debate about what Zionism is and what it isn't. To me, Zionism represents just one thing: The desire of the followers of Judaism to have a land to call their own where they are free from persecution and free to live their lives as they see fit. It was an immense and massive undertaking to make that desire a reality, which required the cooperation of millions of people with no connection to each other apart from a common religion, language (which they had to teach themselves again as Hebrew was a dead language) and historical heritage. To me this was an amazing achievement, one that Jews all over the world should be immensely proud of, and not something that deserves the scorn or vilification that it receives.

To others, Zionism is an imperialist, colonialist enterprise. To be honest I'd need some persuading to see this point of view, since imperialism and colonialism require a starting point (i.e. another country) from which to launch an empire. Jews of the world that made Aliyah did not have a country of their own, they only had Israel.

Every other country that Jews have lived in has persecuted them and made them second class citizens. Yes, even the good ol' USA - did you know that not so long ago universities in the States had a "Jew quota", which limited the number of Jews that were allowed to attend each university?

Israels government is just as terrorist in my opinion as HAMAS is.

Israel's government does what it has the moral and legal obligation to do - that is to protect its citizens (Muslim, Jewish, Christian, Druze, etc) from harm. Anything else would be criminally negligent. It does not act to scare people or inflict psychological damage on people, however those things are a tragic side-effect of war. In my view Israel does everything it can to minimize damage to civilian property and lives, probably more so than any other country on Earth.

Not a week goes by where we don't hear about X civilians being killed by American drones in southern Pakistan. This week is was 50 odd, and three terrorists were killed as a result. People seem to think this is acceptable. Yet when Israel performs similar military actions against the people of Gaza, in response to real and present attacks on their homeland, people cry fowl. I honestly don't know what you expect them to do?

How Israel's naval blockade denies Gazans food, aid

UN probe into Gaza conflict

Israel balks at UN hearings in Israel.

The UN requested permission to hold hearings in southern Israel for victims of Palestinian rocket fire, but the Israeli government refused to host the team – or even allow it to travel through Israel into Gaza or the West Bank.

LoL it gets amusing by day how hard Israel tries to keep ppl from finding truth but they PHAIL!!

[edit on 1-7-2009 by December_Rain]

Originally posted by December_Rain
How Israel's naval blockade denies Gazans food, aid

Yes, and there's another thread on that subject here.

In spite of what you may hear, residents of Gaza are not starving. Plenty of food and aid goes through the border, but Israel keeps a tight control on what gets in and out.

Do you think the authorities do that just to be unkind?

Or do you think that maybe there might be a reason?

[edit on 1-7-2009 by mattpryor]

Egypt, who tried to invade Israel more than once and ultimately decided to come to terms with them, refused to take Gaza back.

We see few attempts to accomodate Gaza and Hamas from Egypt, though one would expect them to be supportive.



Mike

Originally posted by mattpryor
I haven't seen one instance of the Israeli government using the anti-Semitism "card" as you describe it to win an argument or silence debate.

Just off the top of my head, the recent Racism Conference where everyone walked out because Amidinejad was giving a speech. Yeah, they sure listened to what he had to say. During the Gaza siege, they dismissed criticism as anti-semitic.

Prepare for a mental slap in the face matt!

As for thriving on other nations' goodwill (in the form of financial support), I haven't seen any evidence for this either. Israel is a country of 13 million people I believe, who pay taxes to their government the same as you or I do. If would help your argument here if you can support it with facts and figures.

Israel usually posts sizable trade deficits, which are covered by large transfer payments from abroad and by foreign loans. Roughly half of the government's external debt is owed to the US, its major source of economic and military aid.

From the CIA Factbook. Israel is pretty deep in debt.

What about the years and years of Arab violence against Jews? Neither side of these skirmishes are collectively victims or aggressors.

Way to remove the only important part of my quote. I said from SETTLERS. So...

As for "harassment from settlers", do you think this only happens on one side?

...quite frankly YES, because I doubt with all my heart there are Palestinians making settlements in Israel chasing away people with Uzis and Galils. They would be shot no trial.

I find it interesting that you describe Israel and Zionism as the expansion of "an empire".

Zionist words, not mine. Their goal is to get all the land "from the Euphrates to the Nile".

did you know that not so long ago universities in the States had a "Jew quota", which limited the number of Jews that were allowed to attend each university?

No because the ADL would have been on it in a second. Unless you think 'recent' means 1940s. Proof please.

In my view Israel does everything it can to minimize damage to civilian property and lives, probably more so than any other country on Earth.

Yeah right, when half plus casualties are civilian, I do not think they are doing their job properly.
KOSOVO - we personally did not kill any, NATO forces overall killed too many by airstrike, but still far less in proportion to a couple weeks in Gaza.

Not a week goes by where we don't hear about X civilians being killed by American drones in southern Pakistan. This week is was 50 odd, and three terrorists were killed as a result. People seem to think this is acceptable.

It is NOT acceptable. I think what America does to civilians in Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iraq is unacceptable. They and Israel just like to use bombs because they kill faster and look cool. Use the special forces, it takes longer but faaar less civilians die. See FSK use in Kosovo.

Israel should not exist, i am not being a "Jew Hater" its just that if you don't believe in Abrahamic religions then you do not believe that the Jews are Gods chosen people because there is no God ergo they are not the chosen people, maybe if we cared more for the palestinians rather then the Israeli government we could solve more of the problems in the Middle East and maybe Muslim extremists would frown upon the west less if we gave them back their land rathger then helping a tyrannical government take it, i do not hate the people thay have done nothing it is the Elitist Leaders! the zionists that have done their upmost to control and succeded with our help, but just getting rid of Israel now would end up with a large number of Jews becoming refugees which would be no good however i feel that Palestinians need more of their land back if there was a system put in place properly by the UN rather then the lame attempts that have been shown ground could be covered if they just split it 50/50 and who ever is in the wrong side its tough S**t really if the US had the sense to stoip backing them along with us the British who help put them there in the first place which was for selfish reasons of that we didnt want anymore refugees storming in after WWII we created a law allowing only a certain number in and then helped to create Israel with the Zionists.

reply to post by December_Rain


Funny how rockets, ammunition and bomb-making supplies make it into Gaza, yet no food.

reply to post by Beausant91


The Palestinians never owned land. They were refugees and exiles who settled in around the lands the Jews improved and made livable. As the Jews improved the land, it became more valuable, so the absentee Arab landowners in Egypt sold the land out from under the Palestinians to the Jews- at a high price.

reply to post by stevegmu


Apologies i didn't know ill remember for future discussions, always looking to extend the old mind box.

reply to post by stevegmu

This is very true, but the Arabs that sold that land when later confronted about it by other Arabs, wanted to keep the money and get their land back.

To the OP, I saw where the four maps were displayed, ostensibly showing the takeover of land by the Israelis.

Those maps leave out a few very important distinctions. In 1948-49, Israel was attacked by a coalition of Lebanon, Syria, Transjordan, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, and Egypt, but in the process of defending themselves, they picked up a bit of land. A bit of breathing room.

Consider WHEN the maps were drawn. Odd. Right AFTER the 1967 coalition of Syria, Jordan, and Egypt set up to destroy all Israel and soak the ground with Israeli blood.

Israel picked up some additional land after the war. Lots of land.

Same thing in 1973.

Picked up land, then gave most of it back.

Wanted to give Egypt Gaza back, but Egypt wanted nothing to do with those cantankerous people.

You'll note that the Israeli land blossoms with life, productivity, and lots of hard work. The bordering Arab land positively sucks, as they don't give a rat's ass to improve their station, but rather spend all their productive lives and thoughts to hating the Israelis.

I don't feel sorry for them. You make your bed, you're the one that has to sleep in it.

Instead of using massive funding for improving their sewage systems, clean water, hospitals, and the like, they spend the money on weapons and explosives.

They poke, prod, and taunt the Israelis at every opportunity.

And when the Israelis after much warning and extended patience finally give out, it's Israel that gets blamed for the trouble.

Hey. They have been hated and reviled through the millennia.

Why should now be any different?