UFOs: Lets cut the crap already, page 3

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reply posted on 24-6-2009 @ 04:30 AM by Majorion

The main problem has always been the stigma of "little green men" when mentioning the word UFO. Theres always an association there, this is referred to by some as "the giggle factor".

I cant say that I completely blame the media or the government of this inherent "giggle factor", I believe there is a cover up, but that is no excuse for the amount of charlatans involved with UFOlogy.

I have not read Jacque Vallee's work but from what I understand and rather vaguely is that UFOlogy is plagued with 'messengers of deception' as he puts it, and that there is a vast interconnected cult of whackos in this field, and this is true. It seems as if almost anytime you find something genuine and credible, theres always someone or something connected there who/which raises question.

Although there are a number of extremely well documented events that have no association with any hucksters. Blue Book Special Report 14 is a testament to that.

Regards,

reply posted on 24-6-2009 @ 05:28 AM by Dredulous

reply to post by RokNinja

Yes, there are different species of greys as the book will tell you and not all are a part of what is called the "Draconian Collective" that basically says the greys are subjugated minions of the reptilians as the book states. I can believe that you possibly did encounter a non-Draconian grey which would have a more neutral view toward us (Idont know about positive though). Now I am one that knows there are alot of people out there that are in alot of pain and I really try not to question peoples experiences, unless I think they are patronizing me of course, but if you really have encountered a reptilian (in its natural form), which is far more rare and a thousand times more dangerous you are very lucky to A, still be alive and C, not have turned completely insane. I have very good reason to believe that that is what a good friend encountered. Honestly if you did encounter a reptilian and I will take your word for it you need to run like hell so to speak. You NEED TO ALWAYS, ALWAYS carry a hammer (the bigger the better) with you, even to bed! I know it sounds funny but it is one of the only things they instinctively fear, and start reading that book very soon--just google it! I dont know if you are encountering them mentally or physically and would really like to here of your experiences as I greatly fear you may be being set up for something very sinister, as both are part of the Draconian Collective and this is part of there standard operating procedure; get you to lower your guard and think there alright, so you become "ripe for the picking" if you will. What I mean by that is initial encounters (god forbid, abductions) the greys are telepathic to a degree, but not naturally to the degree they ultimately get credit for. What they do is take full advantage of there victims initial shock and weakened mental state and then telepathically dominate you until you can be abducted and be implanted. Once someone is implanted they then have a very high degree of control over there victims mind and that is when things get very bad, but it is not because they are mentally so powerful at first. If you are approached here is what you can do; totally control your thoughts down to the most basic level, that way you will know what it is you are thinking and what they are trying to make you think and push that out of you mind. What I mean by that is think, I, and then the action for example; I am walking, I am walking, I am breathing, I am breathing, I am not afraid, I am leaving, dont let there be a second of un controlled thought, do what you have to get out of where you are at and get to were other people are at. Do Not attack them, though physically most humans could easily take on a grey they they have many weapons, but are ordered not to do anything that would arise suspicion. You are going to get very sick and nauseous but you must fight the urge to pass out. If you are camping or out in the wilderness (I mean way out there), I hate to say it, but you are probably screwed! I love the out doors but I try to go camping within walking distance to a small town, where I can make alot of noise at the very least and alert others, even if they think you are nuts its better than the alternative! If you are encountering a reptilian then they are both physically and mental far superior, just do your best to let them know you are not there enemy and start doing so by showing them your palms facing up. If that doesn't work, brandish your hammer and run like hell. This is some basics, but if you are encountering both then for God sakes you need to get fully informed, IMMEDIATLY!!!

[edit on 24-6-2009 by Dredulous]

[edit on 24-6-2009 by Dredulous]

reply posted on 24-6-2009 @ 06:13 AM by RokNinja

reply to post by Dredulous

learning about the types of being i've seen and what there about is currently my prority for sure.

grey which would have a more neutral view toward us (Idont know about positive though)

er.. yeah, i should have been more clear, i wouldn't call him positive, hes just.. very different. the others instill fear in my waking moments (normaly i think i passout or atleast can't remember what happens next) but him, the first time i saw him in stood there and introduced himself. he confusess the F**k out of me (he's also the one that convinced me they were real). as for the reptilian, i'd describe her as a stalker. i classify her as reptilian because she has sharp teeth (shes not what i've read as Alpha dracoian, and she could be a grey reptilian hybrid) she also has averaged sized pale bule eyes. i think shes been 'following' me for a long time, she also explained alot of things to me but the conversations have been 'removed' from my memory so i can't tell you what they were about. also for some reason i realy distrust anything about the 'nordic' type beings.

another thing

The main problem has always been the stigma of "little green men" when mentioning the word UFO. Theres always an association there, this is referred to by some as "the giggle factor".

i think the terminology used with investigating the phenomina needs to be changed to counter this. craft that are possible of extraterestral origins are still left in the catagoery of UFO. the term alien means unfamiliar as our understanding of these things changes so does the terminology have to.

reply posted on 24-6-2009 @ 06:38 AM by Matteo

Dredulous, you're starting to make me afraid: or you are writing this to make fun of sensitive people, or you have some psychological problem, or the Yeerks from Animorphs book series of K.A. Applegate who take control of the mind actually exist.

reply posted on 24-6-2009 @ 06:46 AM by HypnoAsp

Star and flag for you.I too was pleasantly surprised by your thread.

What I find amazing is that many people who shrug this subject off Hold true to a scrapbook of plagiarisms from other cultures that has been edited, omitted & amended to suit a myriad of political paradigms over the eons. I'm more interested in the radar returns, photos and videos of something in the sky. You can keep the image on the piece of toast and ponder how the mysterious human blood miraculously appeared on a human palm.

Holy, rabid badgers in heat, please refrain the attack. The above is merely a light hearted study in perspective.

~Hyp

[edit on 24-6-2009 by HypnoAsp]

reply posted on 24-6-2009 @ 07:00 AM by StevesResearch

Originally posted by RokNinja
reply to post by Dredulous

most of those I've encountered (i think there greys but one can never be sure) scare the hell out of me and would agree that they seem that way, however there are a few i meet that are quite the opisite. the problem with judging alien intentions and qualities is that we use our own morals and what we determine as being human. these beings are clearly not human and cannot be judged useing the same ideas of right and wrong when for all we no the concept of moralitiy might not even be familiar to them.

[edit on 23-6-2009 by RokNinja]

You say you MEET aliens? I'm assuming this means that you're an abductee?

reply posted on 24-6-2009 @ 07:12 AM by RokNinja

reply to post by StevesResearch

You say you MEET aliens? I'm assuming this means that you're an abductee?

yes, i'm still a bit uncertian over the detials but we an alien being practicly b*tch slaps you across the face you have to take them seriously

reply posted on 24-6-2009 @ 07:13 AM by Kaytagg

I had the pleasure of witnessing a UFO this year. Truly spectacular experience.

I can't say that they're piloted by aliens, or necessarily derived from alien technology (from what I saw, at least), but it's interesting to see a very big spinning disc silently move above your head.

The problem with UFO's is that nobody seems to be able to get a hold of one. If only they would land on the white house lawn, or crash into a packed stadium.

But unfortunately, this isn't the case. We'll just have to settle with seeing videos of blurry lights dancing in the skies, and assume if there is an alien visitor, the governments around the world are involved in a MASSIVE conspiracy.
Possible, yes, but unlikely.

reply posted on 24-6-2009 @ 07:14 AM by Kaytagg

reply to post by RokNinja

I'm going to suspend my disbelief for a moment and indulge you. I have just one question:

What did the craft look like???

reply posted on 24-6-2009 @ 07:15 AM by Here Now

Way to make something so complicated! Haha.. Seriously half these UFOs come from our own planet. Some jump through vortex rifts that can appear anyplace in the sky, underground, ocean..ect. You can be in a UFO and in your home at the same time. Overlapping dimensions allow for this to happen. Pealing away the onion layers is where its at! Thats about as scientific as I am getting

reply posted on 24-6-2009 @ 07:23 AM by IgnoreTheFacts

reply to post by RokNinja

i think the terminology used with investigating the phenomina needs to be changed to counter this.

Changing the "terminology" will not do anything short term. That is merely trying to change the face of a problem, the symptom of a cold if you will. You can change all the terminology you want, but if you don't address the actual core problem with this subject at the same time you are polishing a turd.

Nothing else needs to be said. We can sit here and argue about how important we feel this subject is, and how we wish it could be handled in a mature manner. But in order to do that, we need to become what we hate most...controllers of information. PR reps if you will. We need to stop all the stuff that sounds crazy (true or not, that is not the point) and bring folks into the fold with simple, little stuff before they get exposed to the majority of hilarity this subject provides.

This thread alone artfully illustrates why we are not ready for a responsible public discussion about this subject. Few too many understand how to "manipulate the machine" (which is a necessity for "disclosure" to happen) and instead prefer to actually add to the problem thinking they can do nothing about it in the first place. Entire segments of populations have been slaved by such thoughts (think welfare, lol) and it is their own darn fault.

Don't blame the average Joe for why this subject is laughable...look in the mirror.

[edit on 24-6-2009 by IgnoreTheFacts]

reply posted on 24-6-2009 @ 07:24 AM by RokNinja

reply to post by Kaytagg

What did the craft look like???

answer:
no F**king clue

what i say was an alien being step out of the shadows and transform into what looked like a talking doll.
thats when i laughed at it, told it i was dreaming and poked it in the face.

i don't blame you for not beliving, Hell! I still don't quite believe it!
IT WAS A TALKING DOLL! I MEAN WTF?! WHY?! OH GOD WHY?!!!

seriously can anybody tell me why? I don't get it.

(sorry for the rant)

[edit on 24-6-2009 by RokNinja]

reply posted on 24-6-2009 @ 08:50 AM by FritosBBQTwist

Well, of course UFO's are real.

Its just that the majority of the stories told are hoaxes, and just because one of them might not be a hoax, doesn't mean an alien is inside it either.

Comparing the skepticism of UFO's and dark matter doesn't make either one any more provable, but people are willing to believe the scientist over the farmer, or crazy person on drugs.

Have we been visited by REAL, ET UFOs? I have NO idea...the chances are there, but some people try to make it sound like every damn UFO is from the planet OogaBoogalooga.

reply posted on 24-6-2009 @ 09:15 AM by observe50

Actually there are (as you call them) Alien's on those (Alien) ships. Skeptics can deny all they want it is there right and it is my right to tell you.......... you are wrong

Michael Sherman

what can I say

reply posted on 24-6-2009 @ 09:28 AM by nablator

Dear Xtraeme,

I understand your point of view, but I respectfully disagree with some of your points. It would be nice if ufology were a science, studies could be made and progress achieved. As long as no one finds an edge to ufo study, to detect/record observations in a scientifically meaningful way (in a controlled environment, with instruments), nothing will change. Instead, all we have is a mythology war between proponents and followers of various dogmas, the equivalent of the medieval controversy about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

I was doubtful too about Carl Sagan's requirement "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence", until I realized there is some truth about it. First, "extraordinary" is not necessarily a biased "weirdness" value judgment, it can be a measure by how many new elements need to be added to necessary knowledge, and how many need to be revised. The more there are, the less parsimonious the proposed theory becomes. This can be assessed relatively objectively. Then why require extraordinary evidence for validating the new ideas? Because science is an incremental process, and the dangers of making mistakes, and failing to build a good theory is increased when dealing with revolutionary concepts, far from known paths. For example, in engineering, good practice requires much more care for building and testing a novel, daring design, because there are many more opportunities to screw up.

To validate a theory about some ufos, (unknown natural phenomenon, aliens, extra-dimensional travel, time travel, ...), radically new science needs to be developed; otherwise the theory will remain speculation. There is a scientist in France, an ex-astrophysicist (retired) who believes in proactive action, looking for ways to fly MHD crafts and travel interstellar distances through alternate dimensions. He worked all his life on controversial theories inspired by alleged alien documents.

reply posted on 24-6-2009 @ 09:38 AM by nablator

The analogy with dark matter is disingenuous, there is overwhelming scientific evidence about huge gravitational effects that are not explained yet. Dark matter/dark energy is the "place holder" as you say, for the eventual explanation. The difference between scientific evidence and anecdotal evidence is quit big, and you know it well. DM/DE can be studied because there are experiences that can be replicated at will, to show that something exists, that needs to be explained. UFOs on the other hand are fortean phenomena, random, elusive and unpredictable.

reply posted on 24-6-2009 @ 09:55 AM by fleabit

If governments believe that UFOs exist in any capacity other than mistaken common (or rare) phenomena, you can bet your booties they've conducted intensive studies of the subject matter. I don't think for a moment that the U.S. government isn't taking this very seriously, and all sorts of studies are being done, and results logged.

Here is the thing though. I think that many who follow UFOlogy believe that governments have all sorts of knowledge (and even contact) with UFOs and other spacefaring species. Not I, I believe they know they exist, but they have not made any sort of contact. It's the only reasonable explanation I can come up with, for why they'd remain mum on the subject, and why disinfo outlets continue to downplay or ridicule the subject. Your job is to protect your country, and yet you can do nothing about unknown objects with apparent amazing capabilities, flying at will over any part of our airspace. So until they can figure out what they are, and what we can do, they take the practice of many governments througout history: tell your people nothing. Why create a panic for something you have no control over? No, I think they'd rather dismiss it to the public, while they try to figure out what their options are.

It's laughable because of the media and government responses to sightings. The military branches ignore it as if it's not worthy of attention. After serving in the military for many years, I don't think for a moment that they really feel this way. So it's a ruse. But their attitude generates a no-care attitude with the public. The media can't help but smirk when they report on it. Larry King is the only one I've seen recently who takes this with a straight face and with serious attention.

Consider after the Phoenix sightings. After the mayor called a press conference, and was stating quite firmly she demanded some answers from the military and government in regards to these sightings, a rep struts onto stage in an alien costume, as they declare they "caught the perpetrators." She was outraged, and it was a classic example of making a joke of something very serious. Why would they even bother doing this if they did not think there was something to worry about? Disinfo at its finest.

Scientists have treated UFOlogy with the same contempt, if only because it was a great way to hose your career: admitting you believe UFOs exist. Most were of the mind that without hard evidence, it wasn't worth the time or effort. But of course, there are many ways to approach the subject, but why don't they? Because of the way it's been portrayed to the public, and treated by the government.

Until either it must be dealt with (i.e. the ufo landing in some government buildings front lawn), or they have solid answers and a firm grip on the situation, I think we'll see the much of the same. However, there has been a lot more visibility lately. Why? Is this a disclosure attempt (very slowly done), or just more people realizing there may well be truth to it, as more people gain the ability to easily record these on video. The # of countries opening ufo files, and the # of shows on tv makes me think something is afoot, but who can say.

reply posted on 24-6-2009 @ 10:07 AM by Dredulous

reply to post by RokNinja

Alright like I said I am going to believe you are telling the truth and that you are someone trying to make sense of all of this. If you are mocking people who have had encounters though I am not the guy you want to mess with (thats the last disclaimer Ill put on this). Your forthcomingness is very nice and what I like about these threads is that they open up discussions on these very important issues, without people having to face the ridicule form all the arm chair sceptics, that they would otherwise face if you posted your own thread on the matter. I see you are from Australia I do now there are many abduction cases from there do to the vast expanses of sparsely populated land and Im sure other reasons. I feel it my duty to advise any one who is experiencing what you are. If you say you are passing out there is unfortunately a good chance you are being abducted, I hate to say. Your case is very similar to many people I have both spoke with here and online and in my private life. It is interesting to point out the word "slap". Many use this exact same word, it is a mental (psychic) way of gaining dominance over you. To be honest your experience is very similar to someone I very recently spoke with, that said they felt they where being "chastised" by the beings. Most say they dont think they are necessary bad, this is all part of there procedure. In the beginning phases "they" need you to lower your guard so they do there best to make you feel like they are not all bad as best they can. From what I can tell some greys do not loath humans as much as others or especially the reptilians. In other words they have a bit of an affinity for humans;instead of looking at us as cattle, they look at us they way humans look at dogs. The Collective puts them to use by using them to lower your guard like I said. What I tell any one who is in your shoes is that rather they like it or not the are being forced down a path. I cant tell you who to seek but I can tell you where to start. First you need to seek out a hypnotherapist many are very sympathetic to all of this and will help you find out if you are an abductee. This may be painful, but you have to go through it to get started. Hopefully this will tell you where on your body you have been implanted, which is how they track and even control you. Second you need to seek out a remote viewer or some one who has a completely rational approach to psychic phenomenon. What I mean by that is not some new age fundamentalist that claims they can tell you whats going to happen in April of next year, but someone who can teach you how to shield your mind, not just when you are awake,but when you are sleeping, that is when you are most vulnerable. If the hypnotherapist cant tell you where the implant is, If the viewer is worth there salt they should certainly be able to. Now on the the reptilian, this is well a very difficult thing to deal with. Basically all reptilians even hybrids are at the top of the food chain, they have access to the highest tech as well. I dont know if you already know but they are notorios for there shape shifting abilities (I cant say if it is for real or not but sometime just googl brian todd shapeshifter, keep in mind this is on cnn and they are talking about putting microchips in people for the love of god) so they could be a doll or human or a chimpanzee for that matter. What I find very interesting is that you say she is a hybrid and of course the fact she is female, throws some other possibilities into this equation, that Im sure some scifi dorks have fantasised about, but is no laughing matter, however Im not will to go there just yet. Finally, as you stated earlier we cant paint all aliens with a broad stroke, just like on earth the galactic situation is verycomplicated,only a 1000 times more so. The Nordics you encountered will be us if we stay asleep!

reply posted on 24-6-2009 @ 10:09 AM by Helmkat

It is Sagan's razor, "extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof". The fact is that what is extraordinary is a value judgment and has nothing to do with science.

Bravo!

Extraordinary is a human based value judgement. Who gets to say what is extraordinary and what is not?

Very well done OP, I look forward to seeing where this conversation goes!

reply posted on 24-6-2009 @ 10:19 AM by Darth Marenghi

I agree with at least 90% of the sceptical argument, but the sceptic communities circular belief system (or non-belief system) is indicative of arrogant, closed societies. They won't 'test' the theories because they don't believe in them to begin with...which is the very definition of closed-mindedness. You report a UFO, they think you're deranged, publicity hungry or cash-driven, so straight from the off their 'investigation' is already damaged by bias. The scientific community is a very select and 'elitist' group so will only lap up theories that come from their own rank and file. If you're not a Harvard graduate, the chances are they won't touch you with a cattle prod. Science is 'their' playground, not yours or mine, which is very sad.

[edit on 24-6-2009 by Darth Marenghi]