Boeing postpones 787 first flight

Boeing has postponed the first flight of their new flagship aircraft, the 787, after it was discovered extra strenghening is required on areas of the aircraft during routine flight readiness inspections.

Boeing has confirmed that the new schedule will not be available for several weeks, pushing first flight back into the third quarter of 2009 at the earliest.

This makes it highly unlikely that Boeing will be able to make their Entry into Service target of February 2010.

boeing.mediaroom.com...

the guy is taking the piss:

"Structural modifications like these are not uncommon in the development of new airplanes, and this is not an issue related to our choice of materials or the assembly and installation work of our team," he adds

Boeing Commercial Airplanes chief executive Scott Carson ^^


by this stage the aircraft `problems` should be sorted - not down for another 6 weeks *at least* ; the 787 is fast becoming a joke - Qatar air and many ME airlines are ready to pull there orders - up to 300 at present rate

Stories on the BBC as well, surely any extra strengthening will also add weight as well and affect the payload/fuel usage?

Originally posted by solidshot

Stories on the BBC as well, surely any extra strengthening will also add weight as well and affect the payload/fuel usage?

Yes it will do. And it remains to be seen as to how much weight it will add, so it remains to be seen as to the penalty that will incur.

Akbar Al Baker has already said that Boeing are in for a big surprise *before* this further delay was announced. Boeing's credibility is in tatters with many important customers now. No wonder they are t5rying to deflect attention with a bit of WTO mud slinging.

Airbus *claims* that it learned the lessons Boeing are now learning when they stuffed up the A380 and it won't happen again. For their sake I hope they are right because the big two between them are really hacking off their clients and another big screw up like this would be catastrophic.

Thats the problem there are only 2 LCA companies around. There is no real competition so why worry too much about customer service.

In this case, I suspect Qatar Airlines is doing a bit of posturing. I doubt that there are any early production slots for the A350XWB avalible and while Qatar has 60 on order only 30 were firm. SO they would end up waiting much longer. Unless they want the greater capacity and want to switch to the A350 anyway.

Im betting they will use the delay to wring out a lower price or other concessions from Boeing.

Yes Fred, I was wondering that too. If you tell Boeing to bugger off where do you go?

Would subsidised A330's (in the sense of Airbus paying Qatar, not the way that angers you so ) really pacify them enough to wait for the A350?

The A330 has enjoyed a resurgence of orders as a result of all the delays but such a move now would fix Qatar's fleet on the type for at least 4 years wouldn't it?

Originally posted by waynos
Would subsidised A330's (in the sense of Airbus paying Qatar, not the way that angers you so

) really pacify them enough to wait for the A350?
?

Snif Snif, I smell bait

Well if you throw subsidised A330's and couple them at a no profit to a slight loss in terms of prices then they just might :loL: Boeing could counter with 777 but its not right for that nitch and the line is pretty full anyway.

It would fix the fleet for 4 years but you are betting that the A350 has zero issues with supply chain and flight test. From what I have read thier schedule is pretty agressive too with little margin as well.

from what im raeading on AWST and flight , Qatar want concessions and boeing isn`t moving - IF thats the case then its not just hot air - boeing have dropped the ball and let it roll to australia , and yet wont do anything about the customers who are hacked off.


with some `free` A330`s in the mix, Qatar and others could walk.

Leeham are reporting that the delay is '2 or 3 months at least', and Morgan Stanley are predicting an Entry Into Service of early 2011 now, rather than early 2010.

Ouch. Not good.

leehamnews.wordpress.com...

flight are talking about an `indefinate delay` to first flight - it seems they will have to tear apart the first jet and rebuild it - again

Originally posted by Harlequin
flight are talking about an `indefinate delay` to first flight - it seems they will have to tear apart the first jet and rebuild it - again

For what its worth, Boeing have already said that the proposed fix can be made on the flightline, but then again they also said that they haven't finalised any fix yet. Their stance seems to be very confused.

There is another blog reporting that the delamination occurred during the wing bend test, at just 120% of maximum design load. Not sure on how to take that, Im dismissing it as an unfounded rumour at hte moment.

There is one problem I see however - Boeing is saying they did not know about how serious the issue was until late last week, with announcements made early last week stating first flight was still set for the end of June.

However, Leeham has received information suggesting that key customers knew of the decision to postpone a month ago. If this is true, Boeing is going to get into a lot of trouble with the SEC.

www.flightglobal.com...


^^ a great `blog` - details what went wrong , and what they can do - and why it might be the end of this year before it flies.


edit:

looks like this failed at limit load - not even close to ultimate load - if they can`t fix it , it won`t fly. ever.

[edit on 25/6/09 by Harlequin]

Remember everyone that flooded this board when the A380 wing failed at 147%, missing the 150% target by 3?

I wonder what they are thinking now? I have to wonder this as they are not actually saying anything.


edit; just got back from reading the blog and I was astonished to see, among the replies, someone congratulating Boeing for the excellent work they did in finding this problem. WHAT?

[edit on 25-6-2009 by waynos]

Worried.

Right now, I'm very worried that the 787 might break Boeing. It is quite obvious something has went badly wrong in their Finite Element work. Be that design allowables or poor methodologies. How significant might that turn out to be?

I would reckon the re-design of the wingbox will take 6+ months. Building and testing it, more time.

If they make first flight a year from now, I'll be very impressed.



There are only two competitors in the LCA arena... two is insufficient. The prospect of one is bad... very bad.

the boeing reps are saying its something simple - the engineers in the `know` are saying bollocks is it - the entire package has to be strengthened . both sides , which means stripping it all apart , modeling what went wrong , and over compensate for fixing it , then static testing , the FAA will demand a destruction test now for sure.


i can bet airbus are watching this VERY closely and will over engineer the flexing parts to make sure this doesn`t happen to them

Originally posted by Harlequin
the boeing reps are saying its something simple - the engineers in the `know` are saying bollocks is it - the entire package has to be strengthened . both sides , which means stripping it all apart , modeling what went wrong , and over compensate for fixing it , then static testing , the FAA will demand a destruction test now for sure.

First of all they have to correct the models that gave the wrong result in the first place!!

That is no easy task in itself.

Originally posted by Harlequin
i can bet airbus are watching this VERY closely and will over engineer the flexing parts to make sure this doesn`t happen to them

Uhmmm.... A400M


(why do you think Airbus have been keeping their mouth shut)

Originally posted by RichardPrice
For what its worth, Boeing have already said that the proposed fix can be made on the flightline, but then again they also said that they haven't finalised any fix yet. Their stance seems to be very confused.

I spoke with a close friend who works at Boeing in Renton. The confusion you speak of seems to be real. He is NOT part of the 787 effort, but says he is getting lots of mixed messages from people who work in the program and either they have no clue (Which he thinks is spot on) or they are being confusing to keep people from guessing.

He has gotten answers from a few weeks to months from different people whom he claims should be int he know.

So untill we get an offical announcement from Boeing, I suspect we will remain as confused at the average Boeing employee

There is another blog reporting that the delamination occurred during the wing bend test, at just 120% of maximum design load. Not sure on how to take that, Im dismissing it as an unfounded rumour at hte moment.

www.flightglobal.com... Claims its false.

However, Leeham has received information suggesting that key customers knew of the decision to postpone a month ago. If this is true, Boeing is going to get into a lot of trouble with the SEC.

I wonder if Qatar knew ahead of time and that sparked thier chairmans comments? If they did know early, then you are right there will be an investigation by the SEC.

Originally posted by kilcoo316
First of all they have to correct the models that gave the wrong result in the first place!!

That is no easy task in itself.
(why do you think Airbus have been keeping their mouth shut)

Will this mean the faulty models have caused design problems elsewhere?

Originally posted by kilcoo316
Worried.

Right now, I'm very worried that the 787 might break Boeing. It is quite obvious something has went badly wrong in their Finite Element work. Be that design allowables or poor methodologies. How significant might that turn out to be?

Its going to hurt short term. But they still have a time advantage on the A350 so I dont think too many will risk loosing thier place in line. Because A350's inital production run at 500+ orders probably has very few slots open, someone wanting to buy would have to wait a long time to get their airframes. Yes they can offer A330's or even dump them but its crap shoot IMHO because the A350 has yet to begin testing etc and thier schedule looks pretty agressive as well.

Its a fault of thier own making. They pushed an over agressive and optimistic design, build, and test profile for the aircraft and had no margin for any errors. Compund this with an entirely new techology for Boeing and this was bound to happen.

The flip side is that the all composite 777 follow they will have to build at some point should be a smoother proposition



[edit on 6/25/09 by FredT]