Would our military personnel honor the Constitution or just follow orders?

reply to post by mf_luder


Yeah. I think JD has been over the mountain, up the creek, and has his head on pretty straight.

May have seen the varmint himself!

First, I would like to apologize to the Mods and the other members who have posted on this thread (well, most of them) for losing my cool and going off on Visible Villian last night, but his comments just made me furious. I now have a new rule for myself here on ATS, never post angry!

I do however have a message to those who would slander and besmirch those who have and are wearing the uniform. It is really easy to sit behind your keyboard with complete ananimity and suggest that military personnel, both past and present, lack honor or courage. It is really easy to say they have no regard for the Constitution and would blindly turn on the American people, which means turning on their friends and family. Do you have the courage to express your opinions to the families of these soldiers?

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/d0c0ddc72ff3.jpg[/atsimg]

Do you have the courage to express your opinion to soldiers like this one?

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/d83fa6ac70ae.jpg[/atsimg]

Do you have the courage to go down to your local VFW or American Legion Post and express your opinion? It would require alot less courage than it takes to volunteer to go into harm's way like those who are serving in the military.

Honor, Courage and Duty are not just words or concepts to those who wear the Uniform, they are core principles that they live by. To those in uniform the Constitution is not just a document kept under glass in Washington, it is a living, breathing entity. It outranks the President, Congress, and those in the Chain of Command. They are there to defend this country. Not the real estate, but the people and it's ideals which have been set forth in the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence.

Those who express opinions saying things like this country is "the biggest whore this side of the Andromeda galaxy", or that those who serve (both past and present) have wasted their time, or that we lack honor, are not only spitting in my face, but spitting in the face of my father, who enlisted voluntarily on December 8, 1941, and both my grandfathers who fought during WWI and all those who have served since the signing of the Declaration of Independence. We do not want your gratitude. We do deserve your respect.

Ok guys, I've got to jump in on this.

I'm former military.

8 years active infantry.
Gulf war.
Peacekeeping in the middle east.
Contracted in Iraq. - (Not as a combatant but I did get mortared, rocketed and shot at.... a lot.)
I've seen my share of soldiers (American and otherwise) and war so I'm going to give my opinion as a veteran.

There are a lot of opinions given here on the notion that the military is a bunch of mindless stormtroopers that will shoot down fellow Americans if ordered to do so.

Besides misguided and angry opinion, the only evidence to support that has been a few cases of members claiming to be military and declaring that they will kill Americans if ordered, and links to a supposed survey of soldiers who will do so as well.

This 'survey' claims that these troops will fire on their own countrymen, if ordered.

Among new recruits almost 90% give the response: "If it's the law and they order me to do it I guess it's okay." Our federally controlled public schools have done their job.

Of those with more than 15 years of service, 87% replied "disagree" or "strongly disagree." Responses by members of the Special Forces Underground were unprintable; basically, there will not be many officers who give that order more than once.

This was given as support for the idea that the military is a bunch of mindless killers. So, lets assume for argument that this is an actual existing document and not a fabrication. If we read what this is saying then we can actually see that there is more depth and maturity in the ranks than the military gets credit for. The majority of new recruits says If its the law and they order me to do it then I GUESS it's ok.

They don't even know.

They guess.

This is obviously the most unobtrusive answer a new recruit can give when he does not want to write on paper that "He won't follow orders."
These people are not characters in a video game or a science fiction movie. They are living breating humans that grew up in the USA. They are also low ranking members who are being put in a position of having to decide between their friends, families and country or an obviously illegal and immoral act.

People with 15 years of service (High ranking NCOs and Officers) disagree or strongly disagree - 87%
If this was an election then the question would have been answered 36% ago.

And then this,
Responses by members of the Special Forces Underground were unprintable; basically, there will not be many officers who give that order more than once.

Unprintable.

Special forces members wrote such virulent responses that they could NOT BE PRINTED.

Obviously, new recruits are trained to be malleable for the purpose of instilling discipline As they mature they regain their own self determination. They never lose a sense sense of moral duty. They are just trained to follow orders first. This is eventually subjugated to an intelligent use of moral standards and judgment by all but the most extreme personalities.

The Officers in charge and the NCO corps is obviously going to have the very small fraction that will struggle with this issue but the 87% majority in mature members will offset that.

The special forces aren't even a question. They would take out any officer issuing that order.

You see, the more time and experience a soldier has in service, the more likely they are to think clearly and do the right thing. Since they start out as young impressionable civilians, the new recruits are more likely to follow an illegal order or at least say they will as is the case in this article.

The orders, however, do not come from new recruits. They come from the officers and NCOs. If that order was ever issued by our government then the likelihood of it reaching the lower ranking troop on the ground is exceedingly slim and would likely be ignored. If any single soldier did open fire on fellow Americans it is likely he would be killed or incapacitated by his fellow soldiers.

As for the members here who have posted and claim to be active military that say they will kill Americans without question need to be removed from the service and give serious consideration to getting treatment by a trained mental professional. Or they need to at least grow up.

Those of you who have never been soldiers but continue to villify and marginalize them as mindless unthinking drones should consider joining yourselves.

Or find some other windmill to tilt at.

BadgerPrints and JaxonRoberts- Nicely said.
Well done.

Badger and Jaxon, well said.

I think I'm supposed to have a second line with some meaning, but after those responses, enough said.

Chances are the NWO atm is trying to kill our military with countless occupations and if they eventually decide to invade Iran the US military will be so worn out and stretched thin International troops will most likely be used on Americans so we will never have to address this issue because international troops don't care about the constitution.

Originally posted by UFOTECH
I do not think having been a soldier that it is the military you need to be concerned about. The police and private security contractors do the really dirty work. Most of them are not sworn to uphold the US Constitution and they really follow the UCC not the Constitution.

[edit on 6/23/2009 by UFOTECH]

For the record, I was a private security contractor for years, up until this past March, and may pick it up again sometime.

Neither I, nor the vast majority of the guys I worked with, would side with a rogue government against the Constitution and the people.

We aren't the knuckle-draggers we're painted to be, we CAN read, we know the US Constitution, and yes, I WAS sworn to uphold it, against all enemies, foreign and domestic.

UCC? pffft. Wall street can have that. It's not valid law wherever it contravenes the Constitution.

reply to post by Beefcake

If they ever, EVER turned foreign troops loose on American soil, you'd see millions, and I mean millions of pissed-off Americans engage in a slaughter of them and their masters.

There would be no quarter asked, and for certain, none given.

The more they would attempt to use, the greater the number of armed, irritated, revengeful Americans would show up.

The Alamo would look like a sit-in by comparison.

No greater mistake could any leader make than that. And when the foreign riff-raff was finished, there'd be a dedicated hunt for our "leaders."

One should see what happened to Romanian President Ceausescus in 1989, after he turned on his own people. He was captured, a tribunal was formed, the trial was conducted over a two hour period, and they were immediately executed, him and his wife.

Now that's the way you do it!

You try them and only THEN do you execute them.

Like the guy in the Old West said, "we're going to try you, and then we're going to hang you."

Any leader that turns troops loose on the American people will be assuming ambient temperature very quickly thereafter.

Be it a President, a Secretary of Defense, or an officer of the US military, they at that moment forfeit their lives.

Ask the French about pissed off American civilians. Ask the British about pissed off American civilians. Ask the Mexicans about pissed off Americans.

Foreign troops may foolishly start small operations, but they would quickly learn that they would be better off shooting themselves.

Originally posted by Jakes51
In my opinion I think the government will use mercenaries and quite possibly foreign troops to handle a martial law scenario in the US. The bulk of our service members are abroad, and the ones here; may disobey and that poises a risk of mutiny.

I must presume you mean foreign mercenaries. US mercenaries are A) citizens too, B) soldiers too, and C) people too.

As I've said before, they DON'T do what they do just for money. That's a slur by their opposition to give them a bad name, and it seems to work. Mercenaries generally become mercenaries so that they DON'T have to fight the enemy of the month, but rather so they get to choose their own enemies. Most are ex-military (it helps when you go into that line of work) and took the Oath too.

Foreign troops, be they National Service Soldiers, UN troops, or mercenaries, are a different matter. Their failing is a lack of alliegance to the US Constitution, but a surprising percentage of the mercenary types, even foreigners, will pass on selecting Americans as the enemy of the month.

They select contracts on ideals or percentages, and neither is in their favor in an American assault.

reply to post by dooper


I could not have said it better!! I have guns, bullets and any foriegn soldier dumb enough to get within 500 yards will get a third eye!

"Assuming ambient temperature"!!! Poetic choice of words, and also hysterical!!!

Ladies/Gentlemen:
When I started this thread I had no idea what to expect. I feel I owe everyone who has participated an individual, specific reply of thanks but that's gonna be almost impossible now.

I would like to point out that many of the responses were exactly what I was hoping to hear and make me even more proud to be an American. Many also gave me even more respect for our current and past members of all branches of our military. There were only a few, written in sarcasm I hope, that were kind of disturbing. But, as a few of you pointed out, if they were serious, they would be "handled by their peers."

My father did two tours in Vietnam but died this past Feb. from confirmed complications due to "Agent Orange." I wish this was a question I could ask him as well. Again, I'm grateful for all feedback so far and look forward to anything else that may still come in.

Peace everyone,
CBS

Well me personally I think the military will sit back when the SHTF scenario comes to fruition. I think they will observe just like everyone would and make their own judgments. I do believe the place a person grows up will influence that decision also. Most people don't realize that white southerners are raised not to trust the federal government and they know what the civil war was really fought for. I do believe the people in the south will be more inclined to join in with the American people than say the yankees. I believe the military will get involved when they start witnessing the horrors that the government does to the american people. You have to remember that they are people too and guess what when the government takes a dump on someone it hits our boys first. So don't think they will be the ones shooting American citizens because it won't happen because they know how it feels to get #ed. Americans don't understand the military and they are afraid but You need to realize they are afraid to. At a moments notice their lives can be shattered by some war on some foreign soil that has nothing to do with protecting Americans and You can believe they know it to. I have met many people in the military and I'll tell You they were the greatest people I have ever met and to be honest they grow up unlike the entitled idiots that We call civilians. These boys know whats right and wrong and they will stand for right and wrong its just a matter of when. The only thing WE as a people are waiting for someone to stand up and lead the way and once someone stands up You will have so many volunteers that the numbers will be staggering...


The NWO will more than likely not use US soldiers to suppress the US people. More than likely they will use a outside force and once that happens I won't feel sorry for them. I'll admit if I seen people being raped by chinese soldiers and being shot I'd be one of the ones to fight back. Now I might not have a gun at that point but where there is a will there is a way. As far as leadership they can be replaced and I can assure You if someone is a government lackey and follows unlawful orders someone will replace that man eventually.

Oh btw I am not in the military but I do know several people in the military and they feel the same as I do.

Originally posted by visible_villain

Originally posted by Hastobemoretolife
reply to post by wonderworld

 

They are just machines, they don't think. They are also programmed by humans. besides a drone isn't going to do them much good with people hiding in heavily dense woods.

The fully armed robot looks scary, but once again it's still a machine. If it is autonomous it can only do certain things. Sure they are definitely lethal, but nothing that can't be defeated.

You are in way over your head, my friend !

In this case, ignorance is definately bliss !

WRONG! You appear to have been seduced by technology. Don't feel bad it's a common, although usually self-defeating, flaw.

The machine has not been made that cannot be defeated. Those machines mentioned above, for example, don't have enough armor to even give a grown man heartburn.

Those machines that even have armor can be, and have been, defeated by mere mortals.

Machines that have hawkeyes, I don't care if they fly in the air or in space, and I don't care if their eyes are infra red, thermal, or light intensification, can be, and have been, defeated by mere mortals.

Machines have FATAL flaws, and limitations on their abilities, just like mere mortals. Mortals have the advantage, in that they are able to think and react in ways that machines will never be able to match. No machine can out-think it's maker.

This ain't a video game, it's life in the real world. All local laws apply.

I believe that perhaps the safest place for you, should this scenario ever transpire, is hiding BEHIND someone that knows what they're doing.

Originally posted by jkm1864

The NWO will more than likely not use US soldiers to suppress the US people. More than likely they will use a outside force and once that happens I won't feel sorry for them. I'll admit if I seen people being raped by chinese soldiers and being shot I'd be one of the ones to fight back. Now I might not have a gun at that point but where there is a will there is a way.

The strategy there is to stand BEHIND one of the good guys who DOES have a gun, and watch what direction he's shooting in. Before long,you can have a gun of your own.

The previous owner won't mind, I promise.

Leave the blue hat laying. It might be an eye catcher, but it's sure to draw fire.

Originally posted by nenothtu
Leave the blue hat laying. It might be an eye catcher, but it's sure to draw fire.

Why waste a perfectly good helmet??? Just get some green spray paint, and viola! But seriously, they wouldn't be wearing blue helmets. Even the UN wouldn't support such an action! After all, they are surrounded there on the East River! Ever seen a PO'ed New Yorker???

When I hunt, I place my shots. I mean, I put my bullet right exactly where I aim.

Lately changed over to deer hunting with my .44 magnum just to make it a bit more interesting.

Those pretty blue helmets? There's going to be so much gore and grey matter spattered inside, I certainly won't have any use for it. The funny thing is, you hit that helmet dead center, head on, and that punkin inside will literally explode.

Besides, it's bad luck to wear a helmet with a .30 hole through it.

Anything proven to draw bullets is something to be avoided.

reply to post by JaxonRoberts


Star for you.

Well said.

As for invisible you know who.....I better keep my mouth shut.

Thank God for people like you. Yeah.

[edit on 24-6-2009 by Ben Niceknowinya]

reply to post by mf_luder


It was all in sarcasm.

I answer these type of threads honestly once or twice. Usually on the first page. Then when there has been 4 or 5 pages of military bashing I post something like my last post.

When I post things like that I imagine a basher or two reading it, jumping up and down pointing at their computer, screaming "I knew it, I knew it and then wetting themselves


or I'm hinting at the truth..................................you be the judge.

reply to post by jd140


ROFL!

Well you keep right on doing what you do - that made me laugh out loud.

reply to post by jd140


I almost blew soda all over my monitor!! I could just picture it!!!



Sarcasm, it isn't just for breakfast anymore!