Would our military personnel honor the Constitution or just follow orders?, page 3

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ATS Members have flagged this thread 7 times

reply posted on 23-6-2009 @ 06:36 PM by dooper

For those who are young, or have never been exposed to the reality of the military, being part of the military, and are basing their observations on military capability from the outside, let me say this.

Yes, you can go on youtube and find tons of films that document the destructive capacities of our military. Yes, they have some mighty big ordinance. Yes, the firefights are a bit hairy to observe.

But you forget who these men and women are. Americans. Good, God-fearing, loyal Americans. First.

The vast, vast majority are family men and women.

The vast, vast majority have a love of country that is unequaled. Love of country. Not a love of those who would twist this country through illegal, immoral orders.

These guys and gals are some of the most clever, determined, fly-by-the-seat-of-their-britches you've ever seen.

They know right from wrong just like they know up from down. Give them some credit for God's sake.

If they are on a military installation performing their duties, you don't go crowding them. No percentage in it.

They won't crowd you.

We're going to need them once things get sorted out. Like we never needed anyone.

We're all on the same side.

It's those in DC that have drank the bad water too long that have gone delusional.

Believe me, our military is solid and dedicated.

To us.

Why in hell do you think they cowboy up day in and day out?

reply posted on 23-6-2009 @ 07:07 PM by wobby

Your not the only one who has been interested in the answer to this. The US government sent a survey in the early 90's to the troops asking whether or not
"I would fire upon U.S. citizens who refuse or resist confiscation of firearms banned by the U.S. government." A google search on "New world order combat arms survey" results in a lot of info, here are a couple links;

Link 1
Link 2

reply posted on 23-6-2009 @ 07:09 PM by Hastobemoretolife

I think you guys are worried about the wrong Military. I'm not worried about Air Force, Marines, Navy, Army, Coast Guard. I'm more worried about Xe(Blackwater) and foreign troops.

I think some people are asking the wrong questions, the question is what is going to happen if things turn from cold to hot in NK? The military that will help protect us will be fighting a war.

I don't know why people are so worried about Marital Law, there are way more of us than there are of them. Not to mention, drills are way different from real life and when SHTF.

The question is what you are going to do to protect yourself. The US Military will protect American Citizens, its the Merc's and Foreign troops you should be worried about.

reply posted on 23-6-2009 @ 07:15 PM by bakednutz

Funny, I have thought about this a lot lately and debated many people about this subject. I have talked to current and fromer military personnel and they do believe that the US government does "brain wash" its soldiers, or at least tries to. One guy I talked to said there ultimate goal is to get you to follow orders and that is it, dont think about wether it is right or wrong, just do what you are told. This could be a very scary scenario should martial law ever be decalred. But I can tell you one thing, I am not going down without a fight, and I dont care what that means doing.

[edit on 23-6-2009 by bakednutz]

reply posted on 23-6-2009 @ 07:29 PM by dooper

God help any foreign troops that come to the US for other than a vacation with their families.

I don't care if they wear their own headgear or UN blue. And that blue stands out so well against so many backgrounds.

Their slaughter would make Custer's Last Stand look like a love-in. (look it up for you youngsters during the day of the Hippie.)

Most folks that work for the former Blackwater, Triple Canopy, or any other group are also, predominantly - Americans.

Most senior military NCO's would keep things in line, and no one is more loyal to the Constitution than Special Ops. They're highly intelligent, highly trained, each man is himself a leader, and they too know right from wrong.

Among our officer corps, there are a few dumbass gung-ho types that would do whatever they were told, but anyone in the military knows that the NCO's run things. They are the leavening in the bread. And they know more ways to circumvent dumbass orders than a man can shake a stick at.

I'm not worried about our military at all.

Local cops? While few, there are some in the ranks can be most troublesome sometimes with a poor sense of duty and purpose.

The NCO's.

They are the key.

In Special Forces, for example, they are all NCO's. One A-Team is smarter than our entire General Officer Corps.

reply posted on 23-6-2009 @ 07:37 PM by Hastobemoretolife

reply to post by dooper

True true, I do know one thing, it wouldn't be hard to send the blue helmets into a frenzy.

I wonder what they would do when several 30.06 are whizzing by there heads, in multiple areas at a time. What are they going to do abandon their posts to go help out their buddies?

Not really marital law if there are no People to enforce it.

reply posted on 23-6-2009 @ 07:43 PM by visible_villain

reply to post by CBS01

You asked :
Would our military personnel honor the Constitution or just follow orders?

History holds the answer ...

Source : Wikipedia

Those troops who have 'ethical, moral, or legal' issues with their orders will simply be eliminated -

Source : Ivan's War By Catherine Merridale, p. 69

reply posted on 23-6-2009 @ 07:53 PM by JaxonRoberts

reply to post by visible_villain

Are you seriously comparing our troops to those of the Red Army under Stalin??? I am seriously dumbfounded!!! Talk about apples and oranges!!! I am tempted to just go off on you, but I'll keep to my ATS personal mantra, and attack the post and not the poster!

reply posted on 23-6-2009 @ 07:55 PM by dooper

reply to post by Hastobemoretolife

They couldn't paint enough blue helmets fast enough to replace those with bullet holes.

Not that I have anything personal against UN troops, but they have no business on US territory. Foreign troops on American soil, regardless of good intent - they're fair game.

I can't think of anything that would rile up the population like such a stupid move such as that. In fact, they'd have to relocate the UN. I know a few boys from that neck of the woods, and while they'll fight each other over the slightest difference, they'd make short work of foreign intruders.

That is why I think the NWO folks are dreaming. Delusional.

Many in history were delusional. Many thought they'd run things the way they wanted, and made grand, detailed plans to do so.

The problem is, many stiff-necked people just don't want to cooperate.

A foreign military presence?

They may as well shoot themselves.

reply posted on 23-6-2009 @ 07:59 PM by dooper

reply to post by visible_villain

Vusible, your analogy leave out one very critical element. Actually, two.

First, the Russians of the day were accustomed to being "ruled." One ruler for another made little difference in their daily lives, and was more easily pushed upon them.

The people had no history of self-determination. No experience. No longing.

Second, the people were unarmed. A few White Russians fought for a while, but they were too few.

Americans KNOW what freedom is like, they are unaccustomed to being "ruled," and they are well-armed.

Look at what's going on in Iran. Now imagine an armed Iran. . .

reply posted on 23-6-2009 @ 08:07 PM by Hastobemoretolife

reply to post by dooper

I agree, I'm from the south I know how it is, brothers will beat each other bloody try to break up the fight they will turn on you beat you down then go back to fighting each other.

Same here I don't have anything against the UN either, but there is no reason for them to be in uniform on American soil.

Also I feel the same way as you. I think TPTB are delusional, way out of touch with reality. Kind of reminds me of the Romans(or was it the greeks?) where one senator wanted the slaves to where arm bands so they could identify who were and were not slaves and the other senator objected because they would know how many of them are and there would be an uprising.

reply posted on 23-6-2009 @ 08:15 PM by one4all

My thoughts are like this,if you took every soldier on earth and added up the number of people you have you then have the number of humans it would take to completely change the course of human history.

Lets say there are thirty million soldiers worldwide in active duty as we speak,if you could find a way to get ALL OF THEM TO OPERATE AS ONE GROUP YOU WOULD HAVE AN INSTANT NEW WORLD ORDER,A GLOBAL DEMOCRACY,IN THE TRUEST STATE THAT DEMOCRACY CAN POSSIBLY EXIST IN ON OUR PLANET.

Instantly.

Would the military forces of the world follow orders and shoot on command?

They are doing a job that they are screened for suitability and then chosen to do and that they also personally choose to do,this is a deadly combonation so unless THEY DID NOT TRULY BELIEVED IN THE CAUSE THEY WERE ORDERD TO SHOOT YOU FOR,I wouldnt roll those dice,not even once.

Personally I would not shoot my family based on any principal.No one would.

But thats why military operate in squads and have a chain of command that happens to have the ultimate punitive tool--YOU GET SHOT IF YOU DONT SHOOT AND YOUR LEADER OR YOUR RIGHTHAND MAN WILL PULL THE TRIGGER FULLY BELIEVING THAT YOU ARE SUFFERING A MOMENT OF WEAKNESS AND THEY ARE ACTUALLY HELPING YOU FULFILL YOUR OBLIGATION TO THEM AND THE MILITARY BY CAPPING YOUR BUTT.

So I am afraid that there is a lot more involved in the actions we are talking about than a single personal moral decision,you simply dont have the time to debate the issue when there is a gun barrell pointed at your forehead.

Many would shoot on orders and many will not.

If you are talking domestic control you are in a MEXICAN STANDOFF.

If you are talking national interest conflict with moral questionmarks,EVERYONE IS UNLOADING IN WHATEVER DIRECTION THEIR COMMANDER POINTS,PERIOD.

reply posted on 23-6-2009 @ 08:15 PM by glock19

Originally posted by Sundancer
From other posts I've read touching on this issue, I'd say the military will follow orders and fire on their brothers. Military people will be the first to tell you, they do as they are told and they follow orders, period!

If the boss handing down the orders doesn't give a crap about the constittion neither do they...

Star and flag

Hi, you're an idiot.
As a soldier and an NCO with ten years I can tell you if me or anyone I know were told to do something f'd up to any US citizens we wouldn't do it. There is this thing about only obeying lawful orders you know.

reply posted on 23-6-2009 @ 08:21 PM by one4all

On that note I have seen an unnerving number of blue berets on the heads of men dressed in fatigues on the Canadian plains lately,anyone else notice this?

reply posted on 23-6-2009 @ 08:22 PM by dooper

Officers in combat who habitually give stupid, illegal, foolish, or wasteful orders frequently have a short life span.

After all, in the heat of the moment of combat, with all the shouting, with all the shooting, with all the screaming going on, who's to tell who did what?

I'm not making this up. A leader who compels his men to violate good order and common sense will have his medals awarded posthumously.

If attacked at their posts, our soldiers will defend themselves.

But they will NOT open up on American civilians.

IF any single one or group is so foolish, they'll be hunted down and executed. In fact, I would be surprised if they are not turned over by the soldiers themselves to the locals for due process - which should last less than fifteen seconds.

This is a non-issue that keeps coming up time and again.

Not a problem as we have new members all the time, but why in hell must we insist on demonizing those very ones who love their people and their nation the most?

God. If only Americans could love our soldiers as much as our soldiers love them.

reply posted on 23-6-2009 @ 08:24 PM by glock19

Originally posted by dooper

The NCO's.

They are the key.

In Special Forces, for example, they are all NCO's. One A-Team is smarter than our entire General Officer Corps.

Lol! There's a lot of truth in that!

reply posted on 23-6-2009 @ 09:04 PM by CBS01

Hello everyone:

I just wanted take a second to thank everyone who has taken their time to share their thoughts and opinions so far. I wasn't expecting to, but I've learned a lot of info here I wasn't aware. I've read every thread in this post so far and respect everyone's differing input. The one thing I didn't understand though was the one person who stated there was too much worry about "Marital Law." Prenuptial agreements take care of that! (I know, bad attempt at humor over someone's typo!!!) Anyway, I still look forward to additional input from anyone who's yet to share.

Peace everyone,
CBS

reply posted on 23-6-2009 @ 09:41 PM by visible_villain

Originally posted by JaxonRoberts
reply to post by visible_villain

Are you seriously comparing our troops to those of the Red Army under Stalin??? I am seriously dumbfounded!!! Talk about apples and oranges!!! I am tempted to just go off on you, but I'll keep to my ATS personal mantra, and attack the post and not the poster!

Not at all ..

And I know my point is terrifying -- yet there it is ...

Obviously what's now going on in the US is identical to what went on in the Soviet Union in the 1930's as Stalin 'consolidated power', and what went on in Germany toward the same end during that same period as well ...

And I don't think you're dumb or dumbfounded -- just too terrified to think clearly.

This is exacly where they want us, my friend ...

reply posted on 23-6-2009 @ 09:47 PM by visible_villain

Originally posted by dooper
reply to post by visible_villain

Vusible, your analogy leave out one very critical element. Actually, two.

First, the Russians of the day were accustomed to being "ruled." One ruler for another made little difference in their daily lives, and was more easily pushed upon them.

The people had no history of self-determination. No experience. No longing.

Second, the people were unarmed. A few White Russians fought for a while, but they were too few.

Americans KNOW what freedom is like, they are unaccustomed to being "ruled," and they are well-armed.

Look at what's going on in Iran. Now imagine an armed Iran. . .

Look --

This is all well and good ... and very poetic and patriotic as well ... whatever ...

I don't care how many 'well armed citizens' you put in theatre, all I need is one unmanned drone and 'somethin extry special from the boys in the lab' ...

Capice ?

Anyway, for a bunch of people who claim they 'deny ignorance' , it's clear you all have no idea what on its way to your doorstep ...

Take care, and good luck.

reply posted on 23-6-2009 @ 10:06 PM by Jakes51

Originally posted by visible_villain

Originally posted by dooper
reply to post by visible_villain

Vusible, your analogy leave out one very critical element. Actually, two.

First, the Russians of the day were accustomed to being "ruled." One ruler for another made little difference in their daily lives, and was more easily pushed upon them.

The people had no history of self-determination. No experience. No longing.

Second, the people were unarmed. A few White Russians fought for a while, but they were too few.

Americans KNOW what freedom is like, they are unaccustomed to being "ruled," and they are well-armed.

Look at what's going on in Iran. Now imagine an armed Iran. . .

Look --

This is all well and good ... and very poetic and patriotic as well ... whatever ...

I don't care how many 'well armed citizens' you put in theatre, all I need is one unmanned drone and 'somethin extry special from the boys in the lab' ...

Capice ?

Anyway, for a bunch of people who claim they 'deny ignorance' , it's clear you all have no idea what on its way to your doorstep ...

Take care, and good luck.

You are probably correct with the drone analogy and large amounts of insurgents could be neutralized. However, that is where our armed forces need to and walk away from their consoles and refuse to take the orders. You mentioned purges of the past, Stalin's purge of the military and Hitler's Night of the Long Knives; and it is safe to say that it could happen here as well. All we can do is hope that the armed forces don't blindly follow unjust and immoral orders. Hopefully, most of them are educated enough to discern right from wrong and have the cajones to make the right choices under pressure.