Originally posted by KrazyIvan
schloarships are a waste of time. you have to compet for them and waste all that time filling out those dumb essays. and most the time there only lik 400-500 dollars. you cant even get a smester fo that. 400-500 dollars is like enough for books and maybe a dorm for a semseter. those who apply for scholarships are, in my opinion, wasting their time.

Bunk.
I racked up a full ride to college based on scholarships. Incidentally, they were also all merit based - no need-based aid, period.

It's all about how much you want it, my friend. I want it that badly, I will find a way to go to school. I will find a way to pay for it, even if it means (gasp) a bit of work on my behalf - say, studying through secondary school and then doing well on my standardised tests.

In the business world you are taken less seriously when being considered for employment without a college degree. I am not saying that I agree with the policy, nor am I saying that someone with a college diploma is guaranteed to be smarter than someone without one because that's not true at all. However it is how most businesses do things nowadays. It's very difficult to get a job now at a major Wall Street firm, or Financial firm, or even a job in politics without having a degree.

That's why I think at least affordable college should be available to everyone because with the job market the way it is, it is a necessity. Anyone who truly desires to put in the work and better themselves should not be denied for financial reasons. People should have the opportunity to make more for themselves than they were given.

Originally posted by Djarums
In the business world you are taken less seriously when being considered for employment without a college degree. I am not saying that I agree with the policy, nor am I saying that someone with a college diploma is guaranteed to be smarter than someone without one because that's not true at all. However it is how most businesses do things nowadays. It's very difficult to get a job now at a major Wall Street firm, or Financial firm, or even a job in politics without having a degree.

That's why I think at least affordable college should be available to everyone because with the job market the way it is, it is a necessity. Anyone who truly desires to put in the work and better themselves should not be denied for financial reasons. People should have the opportunity to make more for themselves than they were given.

Djarums, I concur with your opinion.

Further, keeping higher education in the reach of only those who can afford it will keep the poor, poor. The middle class in a stalemate, closer to being poor and the rich, rich. If it weren't for my grants and scholarships(due to strait A's), I'd still be in a mid- level management position in a corporate company with nowhere to go. Living in a society of educated citizens is far better than separation of the classes.

Do any of you really want the majority of the population uneducated and voting?

Why is everyone seem to be sidestepping student loans. Any student can get them, and they don't pay until after they graduate.

Free college is a fundamentally stupid idea. I work too hard to pay for some other persons kids to go to college.

Does it not seem rediculous for 100% of the population to pay for 25% to go to college?

YES.

The federal government is not the place to turn for ethical, practical, or effective spending or social programs.

Keeping the poor, poor?!

My entire life I've been living below poverty level. I AM the poor, and I’m not griping about it. I went to a school where out of a class of 80, only about 20 kids went to college. About 10 of them that I know of still attend.

Many of those who didn't, blame it on financial problems.

Financial problems, eh? It’s so deafeningly easy to get financial aid… especially if you don’t procrastinate filing your FAFSA and you do a little digging to see what’s out there for your benefit. I'm there, and like everybody is saying, if you want something bad enough, you find a way to get it, no matter what the cost.

The idea of free college appeals to me only because I can't afford to pay it on my own... but in the same notion, I do all right with scholarships, grants, and a few minor student loans. If everybody had free college, the universities would most likely be set down to a much lower educational standard in that the government would be funding through taxes... and there are certain requirements that must be met for a certain amount of funding. Just as somebody pointed out, the value of a degree would go down, and this may lead to the depletion of the job market. Equality is a good thing, don't get me wrong, but if you don't have the drive and ambition and the passion to pick yourself up and do for yourself, then why should others do for you?

[Edited on 5-5-2004 by DamnableSara]

Originally posted by KrazyJethro
Why is everyone seem to be sidestepping student loans. Any student can get them, and they don't pay until after they graduate.

i had to take out a loan to fund my degree, and although i dont have to begin paying it back until i earn a certain amount a year, having graduating with debts of £12000 i cant help thinking there must be a better system.

i believe that the most privileged people in society should subsidise the less fortunate, and so i would fund higher education through raising the top levels of income tax. so when, in ten years or so, i (hopefully) get a decent job, i pay for my education through basic taxation. attempting to charge me for something before i gain decent employment or have the financial means to do so seem like backward logic.

Free college is a fundamentally stupid idea. I work too hard to pay for some other persons kids to go to college.


ive had a discussion similar to this with you before and i understand what you mean. but i remember you saying you have kids and so although in the short term you will be worse off, if the state were to pay for higher education, when they go to uni, you (and they) wont have to carry the financial burden.

in 1945, the Labour party (back when it was vaguely socialist) stated in its manifesto that "wealth should no longer be a passport to the best treatment". it is on this basic notion that contemporary political society should be based.

agreed! College should be open to anyone wishing to pursue that route.

very interesting topic and discussion, heres my 2 cents...

I took serveral challenging classes in high school, (trig, precal, calc and physics all in my senior year) i came from a poor family, dirt poor, food stamp poor, family. but i took any challenge that came my way.
i had good solid grades with a 3.2 GPA.

No scholarships....nothing...came my way... i had to get a job as my dream of working with robotics and A.I. dwindled....

i worked in the family business (painting new construction homes) and took some classes to get into the IT industry (this was shortly after 9-11) and before my classes were complete the school went outta business... great, but i got a better job.

now i live on my own making $12/hr (due to the economy)trying to pay over $800 a month in rent..this doesnt include my other bills, and household expenses.( phone, internet access, food, gas etc....)

in order to get a student loan i need to attend enough classes to totally screw up my work schedule, so that i cannot support myself, and when was the last time you saw a poor white boy fund?

Don't get me wrong im not bringing up an arguement about race or sex and the abilities to use them to get into college, but it happens...

As i was working in my construction years, more homes i worked on went to people that weren't even U.S. citizens, and now they have a grant for that as well...
not only for schooling but for education as well

Every quarter the local community college sends me a brochure, i look at it and put it to the side, unable to even think about going due to the fact i need to eat and survive my lower middle class life.

so in the end i think education should be more available to those who wish to seek it. company sponsorship? a possiblilty, but unlikely. free? never.

Originally posted by bolshevik

i believe that the most privileged people in society should subsidise the less fortunate, and so i would fund higher education through raising the top levels of income tax.

I fundamentally disagree. Perhaps it's the difference in systems we have over here. I lean more towards the idea that you should enjoy the fruits of your labor. Although that will undoubtably lead to some enjoying the fruits of their families labors, that is the price paid for such a system, and they are the extreme minority.

ive had a discussion similar to this with you before and i understand what you mean. but i remember you saying you have kids and so although in the short term you will be worse off, if the state were to pay for higher education, when they go to uni, you (and they) wont have to carry the financial burden.

I believe that even in the long run I would be at a disadvantage. Looking to the federal government to tax and spend properly for the myriad areas with different needs is not only foolhardy, but as the saying goes "The road to hell is paved with good intentions." While I understand the premise, I can not in good concious think that the government would do right by me as an individual. Look at the welfare system, the foster care system, and the social security system. They are grossly mismanaged and wasteful at best.

in 1945, the Labour party (back when it was vaguely socialist) stated in its manifesto that "wealth should no longer be a passport to the best treatment". it is on this basic notion that contemporary political society should be based.

What you seek is wealth redistribution, and I am against that. I for one am able and willing to earn money and make my own way. The government of the U.S. is only obligated to provide all with the opportunity to make something out of themselves, or succeed. Not to create standards of living for all people by taking from those who do and give to those who do not.

Originally posted by bolshevik

Originally posted by KrazyJethro
Why is everyone seem to be sidestepping student loans. Any student can get them, and they don't pay until after they graduate.

i had to take out a loan to fund my degree, and although i dont have to begin paying it back until i earn a certain amount a year, having graduating with debts of £12000 i cant help thinking there must be a better system.

i believe that the most privileged people in society should subsidise the less fortunate, and so i would fund higher education through raising the top levels of income tax. so when, in ten years or so, i (hopefully) get a decent job, i pay for my education through basic taxation. attempting to charge me for something before i gain decent employment or have the financial means to do so seem like backward logic.

Free college is a fundamentally stupid idea. I work too hard to pay for some other persons kids to go to college.


ive had a discussion similar to this with you before and i understand what you mean. but i remember you saying you have kids and so although in the short term you will be worse off, if the state were to pay for higher education, when they go to uni, you (and they) wont have to carry the financial burden.

in 1945, the Labour party (back when it was vaguely socialist) stated in its manifesto that "wealth should no longer be a passport to the best treatment". it is on this basic notion that contemporary political society should be based.

Good points Bolshevik as always, I'd have to agree with you.

I do not agree with a "free" college education however. One makes a personal choice when attending college, others may decide to go to a trade school or tech school or enter the work force. It's their own personal choice I believe which matters. Plus if people want a free college education they have to understand someone in the end has to pay for it, and there is simply not enough money to fund all this "free" stuff.

I believe that any type of wealth distrubtion should only provide the basic limited needs of it's citizens. To ensure that nobody starves to death or ends up sitting in the streets somewhere. I believe there would be enough funds for these services.. but asking for money for free college education for everyone is way too much because there is not enough funds for all of this. The wealth distrubution should focus just on the basic education to build basic skills... then it is up to the person himself to go to college or not.

As the quote goes "from each according to his ability, to each according to his needs" The person only recieves what he needs to survive.

Colleges do not work on the principle of being able to just pay, the applying student has to have the marks and ability to get in.. and then worry about payment. A free college education system would let just about anyone in regardless of ability and undermine the integrity of the colleges.

Any type of wealth distribution program requires intense organization, most governments are too disorganized and incompetent to ever have such a thing. Otherwise it would turn into the heavily-abused welfare/social security system in the U.S.

I care about my fellow man more than my own personal interests are concerned. You would still indeed keep the fruits of your labor, however a small amount would be put in the public trust for the benefit of society. I am willing to pay out of my pocket to help society in general. I look at Europe and they are going to try to unite the governments to work better.. ultimately I believe in the future there will be some sort of global alliance, small individual nations can only do so much alone.

I care about the society in which I live and wish to see for it's advancement.

[Edited on 6-5-2004 by RedOctober90]

Free education? There is no such thing, at least not now.

MTZ, you are not the only one with problems like that. I am not going to bore everyone with my whole life story, but the part that has to do with this topic.

I graduated from high school with a 3.9 using pretty much only what I learnt in school back in Spain, and almost not studying anything here. I did go to the library a lot and read 6-7 books a month, but i did not have to touch any books from school almost at all.

I got two free years of college because of my grades, that's what they told me.... but there was a problem. When i came to the States the immigration officer screwed up my name, but it was just messed up in my first and middle name, and when this came up while I was going to college, and getting A's all along, they cut that program and told me that I had to fix the problem with my name first.

After I did that, I could not get back to that college program, and worse yet, my parents were in economic dificulties so i had to get a full time job working in a then big electronics store. Perhaps some of you remember it, it was called Incredible Universe. This store was supposedly all over the U.S. My schedule did not let me get to college, because at times I had to work in the mornings 8am - 5pm and other times from 1pm until 10pm. I worked there until the store went out of business.

Then as I saw that i could not get back in college and after 4 months of not finding any jobs I joined the Navy, in Aircrew/AW.
The picture in my avatar is the graduating photo from Aircrew candidate school. I am the one on the front of the picture.

After the Navy I went back to college, and graduated in computer electronics engineering technology. Top of my class, Salutatorian, with a 3.96 GPA, highest honors, a member of the honor society and even appeared in the 2002-2003 National Dean's list. What did any of that get me? not a thing. I still have to pay for everything, and the funny thing is that i haven't gotten yet a job in the field of study I graduated from.

There is no such thing as free college, and I am a white hispanic. So all that crap that hispanics are getting all the grant money is just...crap.

And you know what. I am grateful that at least i was able to do all that. Probably if I had stayed in Spain I wouldn't have graduated in any college, as in there you have to not only be an A student but have a lot of money.

I do not blame the administration for what is happening. After 9/11 things got worse, and it seems its going to get worse and worse. Problems like the one we have now do not occur in only 4 years. It takes time for problems like these to brew and boil to the point where it is now.

There is actually no government that doesn't have problems in the world. The U.S.A is one of the greatest countries there is in the world. At least you have the ability to get a degree if you are willing to make sacrifices. Sooner or later i am sure I will find a job where I can use all the skills I learned by getting a college degree.


[Edited on 6-5-2004 by Muaddib]

Variable, I can tell you that it doesn't work the same for everybody, but if you really want to do it, you can do it. People just have to be willing to make sacrificies.

Originally posted by Muaddib
Variable, I can tell you that it doesn't work the same for everybody, but if you really want to do it, you can do it. People just have to be willing to make sacrificies.

Ah, sacrifice, that is what it takes sometimes to make that money.

It's what we are built on, although you wouldn't know it from the whiney types we have around some places.

Originally posted by KrazyJethro

Originally posted by bolshevik

i believe that the most privileged people in society should subsidise the less fortunate, and so i would fund higher education through raising the top levels of income tax.

I fundamentally disagree. Perhaps it's the difference in systems we have over here. I lean more towards the idea that you should enjoy the fruits of your labor. Although that will undoubtably lead to some enjoying the fruits of their families labors, that is the price paid for such a system, and they are the extreme minority.

ive had a discussion similar to this with you before and i understand what you mean. but i remember you saying you have kids and so although in the short term you will be worse off, if the state were to pay for higher education, when they go to uni, you (and they) wont have to carry the financial burden.

I believe that even in the long run I would be at a disadvantage. Looking to the federal government to tax and spend properly for the myriad areas with different needs is not only foolhardy, but as the saying goes "The road to hell is paved with good intentions." While I understand the premise, I can not in good concious think that the government would do right by me as an individual. Look at the welfare system, the foster care system, and the social security system. They are grossly mismanaged and wasteful at best.

in 1945, the Labour party (back when it was vaguely socialist) stated in its manifesto that "wealth should no longer be a passport to the best treatment". it is on this basic notion that contemporary political society should be based.

What you seek is wealth redistribution, and I am against that. I for one am able and willing to earn money and make my own way. The government of the U.S. is only obligated to provide all with the opportunity to make something out of themselves, or succeed. Not to create standards of living for all people by taking from those who do and give to those who do not.

I work hard and earn my living as well, but I'd be glad to help contribute to the public trust through a distrubution program. I am unhappy with U.S. welfare and social security programs because of the incompetence and poor organizational skills it has.


By wealth distrubution, it means that a certain amount is allocated from the people depending on the ability of them to pay... and then the most basic of needs/assistance is given to those depending on what basic things they need.

Hard Capitalists fail to see the problem with hard capitalism.. which is bad unemployment. And there is more variables to this than "laziness" I know many people who went and studied hard and are on the unemployment list... I know that Bolshevik does volunteer work and I commend him greatly for his efforts in giving his time to the people.

It's not about "me me me" it's about everyone else.

[Edited on 6-5-2004 by RedOctober90]

Originally posted by KrazyJethro

Originally posted by Muaddib
Variable, I can tell you that it doesn't work the same for everybody, but if you really want to do it, you can do it. People just have to be willing to make sacrificies.

Ah, sacrifice, that is what it takes sometimes to make that money.

It's what we are built on, although you wouldn't know it from the whiney types we have around some places.

Before you call people "whiney" You have to put yourself in their position first.

Originally posted by RedOctober90

I work hard and earn my living as well, but I'd be glad to help contribute to the public trust through a distrubution program. I am unhappy with U.S. welfare and social security programs because of the incompetence and poor organizational skills it has.

Everyone is unhappy with the inept welfare situation in the US. To look to the federal government for this sort of social engineering and distribution is stupid to say the least. But what can you expect, nothing better. It needs to be cancelled.


By wealth distrubution, it means that a certain amount is allocated from the people depending on the ability of them to pay... and then the most basic of needs/assistance is given to those depending on what basic things they need.

I understand what wealth disribution is, I was the one who introduced the term in this thread. Is it so hard to understand that some want to give, and some don't? Let's say you do want to give, then give. How you want, where you want.

Hard Capitalists fail to see the problem with hard capitalism.. which is bad unemployment. And there is more variables to this than "laziness" I know many people who went and studied hard and are on the unemployment list... I know that Bolshevik does volunteer work and I commend him greatly for his efforts in giving his time to the people.

It's not about "me me me" it's about everyone else.

Give me a damn break. It IS about me. I have an idea, # money. Most libs, and people of that persuation, seem to think that throwing money at a problem will solve it, or even to pacify it. I disagree. I tend to think that people become used to it, and come to expect it, like it is their right.

Here's an idea I'm sure no one who wants Universal Healthcare has thought of. Stop giving money to the poor. How about you help them YOURSELF. Get the # out there and stop thinking you $6 is going to make them into responcible citizens.

[Edited on 6-5-2004 by RedOctober90]