Are people so uneducated as to think the world could function without monetary systems?, page 3

Originally posted by grapesofraft
reply to post by theyreadmymind

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I am not insisting on the fanciest house. There are tons of houses that are better than a 500k house thats just an above average house, but even if I wanted the fanciest what is wrong with buying it if I could afford it?

Plus just more proof of the fantasy aspect of believing the world could function as it does without monetary systems. The world is not so simple as to simply take less so others can have more. i could buy a 20k house and give the other 480k to feed the children, but it doesnt mean they will eat. There is just a good a chance I just spend 480k to buy new guns or more food for the armies that will kill those that are starving. If it was just a matter of cash there wouldnt be starving people in the world.

I will give you a point though for saying that the value of things fluctuate. It is called the law of supply and demand.

[edit on 22-6-2009 by grapesofraft]

Yeah, basically in a resource-based economy "affording" something is a thing of the past. Really, I don't know if it is a Star Trek or fantasy idea, or if anybody expects it to happen tomorrow, but you don't have to give up any $$ for others to eat. Everything is free to everyone. All are equal. I understand some aspects, but not the housing part. I've heard from some you'll get a house appropriate to the size of your family, and from others it's just about availability, but the houses will be better than the house you have now. Because they will be built to last, and they will be built with quality in mind and be technologically advanced. In the venus project, they were talking about vacuum systems that suck all the dust out of your house, and things like that. Everything will be built of the utmost quality because there will be no such thing as planned obsolescence. It won't matter the cost of the materials, only the availability of resources and time for the machines to build them.

reply to post by Bldrvgr

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I do not even know where to begin with your post.

1. You are right we would have to have robots or tech to do everything, but unfortunately they do not exist to these levels yet and even if they did they would have to be built and that costs money.

2. Having multiple mfg;s of a product is good, because it increases competition and innovation.

3. Do you really want a government to deide how much and what you get.
As in your systematic handing out of cell phones example.

3. The building/structures/factories thing already exists for the most part.

4. Who can say that people will seek greater education just so they can have the same reward as everyone else, Given human nature, it is more likely for the world to become less educated when their is no real value in education where everything you want is handed to you.

* Ridence of the poor sector. Those in poverty liveing in food deprived areas would be able to shipped out and given aid, over time this type of poverty would be elimated and transitioned to a productive work force. Such a spike would mean less hours per person needing to add to a work force. The more people, the less need on hours per person, more freedom to thier time off.

Who is to say these people want to be moved and to work in a factory. Maybe they like living where they do. Also, you discount the fact of greater demand for products. There would be greater demand for at least a few reasons.
1. Everything is free.
2. Now all 7 billion people have access to everything and its free.

The Down side.

* Vanity, Uniqueness would be a major tumult.. Its like saying i Like this MP3 player looks and design better then this IPOD.. which we have today. Competition does have its values to some point. But then again this could be alotted only to personal likes.

Good point.

* Job allotments. This is something that can be fixed. As said per the andriod technology we could have machines work, or technological advancements in dealing with less unwelcomed areas. That people would generally not want to do.

Androids of this caliber are still fantasy.

But crazily enough, You think these sectors would be high money paying jobs today, in which they are not. A executive who does nothing but plays golf randomly throughout the day is makeing more then person drudgeing out septictanks for random peoples homes. This is the failure of the money system.

An executive usually does much more than play golf. Usually when they do play golf they are with someone they are buying from or selling to.

* Major ability to have the populace tracked and governed, Abuse from supposed officials (Do not see the need of a goverment system though) This is my major concern with this. its a productive slave system if allowed a "head" of people to be a decideing factor.. In which this does not need to be at all, can have a simple voteing system even if we maintain the computers are not used to calculate votes (We should not use them in our system now do to obviouse reasons, our elections are rigged)

You are right, but this is the one thing that does in your whole argument.
Do you really want to give control of your life over to anyone else no matter how lazy you can be or free crap you can have handed to you?

Originally posted by grapesofraft
reply to post by theyreadmymind

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Oh now let us be realistic. Some small minority of people might do that, but most people would grab as much free stuff as you can. Just look at people on welfare that also go from free food place to free food place to hoard as much free food as they can get, even though they already get food stamps to feed their families. Did you ever wonder how some people on government assistance can manage to get so fat?

[edit on 22-6-2009 by grapesofraft]

That's only because "stuff" has value. Of course people grab up "stuff" in a monetary-based system. But when stuff has no value why would people want to horde it? Once you are through with it it would just be a burden. For example, how much water do you horde in your house? How much dirt do you have in your garage? It's practically worthless.

reply to post by theyreadmymind

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So now we are turning over our right to choose what house we want to whoever that has the power to choose for us. Sounds great.

I doubt the house i would get would be better than the house i have now. It is quite nice. Believe it or not houses now last a pretty long time. Dont you think if someone invented building materials that lasted forever without maintenance and that were also cost effictive that they wouldnt be in wide use now.

So now we have house building machines and machines to vacuum the house. What are we going to do all day, surf porn, read, lay in the sun?

It would be a whole world full of fat, lazy, self entitled people. I would probably request a noose from the powers that be so I could hang myself just so I wouldnt have to witness the horror any longer.

reply to post by theyreadmymind

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Stuff always has a relative value whether it is free or not. Do you not value somethings more than others?

I dont generally horde things myself, but I know plenty of people that horde all kinds of things. Food, clothes, toilet paper, you name it.

Originally posted by grapesofraft
reply to post by theyreadmymind

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So now we are turning over our right to choose what house we want to whoever that has the power to choose for us. Sounds great.

I told you. I don't know all the specifics about housing in a resource-based economy.

I doubt the house i would get would be better than the house i have now. It is quite nice. Believe it or not houses now last a pretty long time. Dont you think if someone invented building materials that lasted forever without maintenance and that were also cost effictive that they wouldnt be in wide use now.

Absolutely not. This would put a lot of companies out of business! That's what planned obsolescence is all about and why a resource-based economy would be better than an economic-based one.

So now we have house building machines and machines to vacuum the house. What are we going to do all day, surf porn, read, lay in the sun?

It would be a whole world full of fat, lazy, self entitled people. I would probably request a noose from the powers that be so I could hang myself just so I wouldnt have to witness the horror any longer.

Funny! But yes, from what I hear, you can do whatever you want to do.

Originally posted by grapesofraft
reply to post by Bldrvgr

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I do not even know where to begin with your post.

1. You are right we would have to have robots or tech to do everything, but unfortunately they do not exist to these levels yet and even if they did they would have to be built and that costs money.

Um Money is not a system in this case, for its value would be null. You thinking this economy system, then yes the system we have now it would be limited at best. Probably shot down.

2. Having multiple mfg;s of a product is good, because it increases competition and innovation.

Not Necessarily true. Though as said before there is the upside to competiton, that make people think on an edge. But majority of the time its for personall Look or value in which has no real significant use.

3. Do you really want a government to deide how much and what you get.
As in your systematic handing out of cell phones example.

People only need 1 cell phone realistically. the data would be more on consumption of the region, not a system grid of what you are limited to. If something starts waining on needing more that specific product, this can be altered and fixed to meet needs realistically, rather then more wasteful rot like we would in this system by over spending for the lower amount pay per unit.

3. The building/structures/factories thing already exists for the most part.

Yes and would be still used, or reused or torn down. No excessive need for buildings.

4. Who can say that people will seek greater education just so they can have the same reward as everyone else, Given human nature, it is more likely for the world to become less educated when their is no real value in education where everything you want is handed to you.

Who says they would not ? Einstien is of one that failed Math legit in school and decided for himself to learn, no one gave him money or gave him a free ticket to push him to be productive but himself. There is many people in which money never motivated nor was even cared about.

People will always learn what they are most interested in. I have never come across an individual that was truly interested in nothing. I have however came across people that beleived thier interestes where to high to obtain, so they took a devalued route. Many factors apply to this failure in which can be eliminated.

* Ridence of the poor sector. Those in poverty liveing in food deprived areas would be able to shipped out and given aid, over time this type of poverty would be elimated and transitioned to a productive work force. Such a spike would mean less hours per person needing to add to a work force. The more people, the less need on hours per person, more freedom to thier time off.

Who is to say these people want to be moved and to work in a factory. Maybe they like living where they do. Also, you discount the fact of greater demand for products. There would be greater demand for at least a few reasons.
1. Everything is free.
2. Now all 7 billion people have access to everything and its free.

Why whould they work in a factory ? and not what interests them ? your misleading on the point where they would be "recovered" and sent to slave work.. No, they would be taught and found out aspects. I would not want someone with a innate mechanical ability to learn be stuffed somewhere that is opposite. there would be no value or point. and that person would be miserable, hence not wanting to work.
The Down side.

* Vanity, Uniqueness would be a major tumult.. Its like saying i Like this MP3 player looks and design better then this IPOD.. which we have today. Competition does have its values to some point. But then again this could be alotted only to personal likes.

Good point.

* Job allotments. This is something that can be fixed. As said per the andriod technology we could have machines work, or technological advancements in dealing with less unwelcomed areas. That people would generally not want to do.

Androids of this caliber are still fantasy.

Not realy, Japan students already admitted it is easy to build a robot with a set program. They are more interested on the ones they build that have the AI architecture. This is in articles on this forum.

But crazily enough, You think these sectors would be high money paying jobs today, in which they are not. A executive who does nothing but plays golf randomly throughout the day is makeing more then person drudgeing out septictanks for random peoples homes. This is the failure of the money system.

An executive usually does much more than play golf. Usually when they do play golf they are with someone they are buying from or selling to.

-Not completely, Unfortunetly I worked as a student for a county operated recreational sector. The freeholder at the time, literally had a couch in his office, and has specific days in which he would play the courses .. His biggest thing was removeing trees that got in his way of the game, and im not jokeing.

* Major ability to have the populace tracked and governed, Abuse from supposed officials (Do not see the need of a goverment system though) This is my major concern with this. its a productive slave system if allowed a "head" of people to be a decideing factor.. In which this does not need to be at all, can have a simple voteing system even if we maintain the computers are not used to calculate votes (We should not use them in our system now do to obviouse reasons, our elections are rigged)

You are right, but this is the one thing that does in your whole argument.
Do you really want to give control of your life over to anyone else no matter how lazy you can be or free crap you can have handed to you?

Problem is we already have. We live in a system where if you work you get credit to buy. if you do not work, you do not have credit and in this system you pay tax on everything hence you must maintain makeing credit or try to live on a street. You are not free to not work, and the higher labor jobs payout the least.

[edit on 22-6-2009 by Bldrvgr]

[edit on 22-6-2009 by Bldrvgr]

reply to post by Bldrvgr

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Problem is we already have. We live in a system where if you work you get credit to buy. if you do not work, you do not have credit and in this system you pay tax on everything hence you must maintain makeing credit or try to live on a street. You are not free to not work, and the higher labor jobs payout the least.

This is commonly referred to as the real world. It is why your parents wanted you to get a good education and to learn the value of a work ethic.

You are free to not work as long as you dont want much. I live in the US and there are tons of people here that dont work, but yet still live.

Many high labor jobs pay out the least, because they dont require special skills so almost anyone can be hired to do the job. The law of supply and demand once again.

Some high labor jobs pay quite well if you are smart about how you go about doing it. The previous example of sucking sewage from peoples septic tanks are a good example. It doesnt take a lot of skill, but if you can acquire the resources to work for yourself doing this it pays quite well.

[edit on 22-6-2009 by grapesofraft]

Originally posted by grapesofraft
reply to post by Bldrvgr

---

Problem is we already have. We live in a system where if you work you get credit to buy. if you do not work, you do not have credit and in this system you pay tax on everything hence you must maintain makeing credit or try to live on a street. You are not free to not work, and the higher labor jobs payout the least.

This is commonly referred to as the real world. It is why your parents wanted you to get a good education and to learn the value of a work ethic.

You are free to not work as long as you dont want much. I live in the US and there are tons of people here that dont work, but yet still live.

Many high labor jobs pay out the least, because they dont require special skills so almost anyone can be hired to do the job. The law of supply and demand once again.

Some high labor jobs pay quite well if you are smart about how you go about doing it. The previous example of sucking sewage from peoples septic tanks are a good example. It doesnt take a lot of skill, but if you can acquire the resources to work for yourself doing this it pays quite well.

[edit on 22-6-2009 by grapesofraft]

Its also our hinderance, and our higher waste tendancy for a Personal "Value" Which is crippleing us daily. We are pumping products not on supply and demand but on marketing. HD dvd was not a supply and demand issue, it was aggressive tactics to support a model that was lower. Which was further pushed via contracts and off hand deals.

This is nothing new and never will be.

We shouldnt be wasting people on this value, as well as resources.. A given area does not need several food markets for supply/demand this is done for value competition. The Products not bought are shipped out to rot.

We say we do not have unlimited resources, but we act like we do. We do not monitor these nor care to.

Higher Paid education means, Better work position pay: I disagree entirely, Not only is our education system out of date, the materials used are basic and generic and do not fit the needs of this populace. Which means higher "Experience" Demand over just getting out of Harvard. Some companies will not higher you straight from a college regardless of the level due to the lack of knowledge in that area .. Advanced programming is big on this, as well as engineering areas.

We need to restructure this in any event or else, we will be supporting ourselves on the areas that have, such as japan as an example.

[edit on 22-6-2009 by Bldrvgr]

[edit on 22-6-2009 by Bldrvgr]

reply to post by munkey66

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All societies have a form of token economy, whether it is printed money or a work-for-food exchange. From work experience, there really are people out there who will starve if they do not have an inducement to work!

The real question is how well the westernized nations would survive if the currency-based system disappeared. Two or three generations ago when most Americans had roots in farming communities or had done real physical labor it would be easier but most people today don't have that knowledge or conditioning. Especially if there is no Internet or Twitter to help them, I'm not the biggest Internet fan and even I am surprised at how dependent I am on it at this stage. Just watch people whose main socialization is Internet chatter learn to work cooperatively, that will be interesting.

reply to post by Bldrvgr

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So you are trying to say that these companies somehow physically forced people to go the store to buy HD DVD?

So you think most of the world is so stupid that they see a commercial and then turn into zombies walking like a mummy to the nearest Best Buy?

If that isnt a prime example of blaming everyone but ourselves for our own bad choices, I do not know what is.

And the example about education not meaning more value, is ridiculous. Sure someone doesnt hire someone with just a degree for things like Advanced Programming or Advanced Engineering. It is because they are advanced and you just got out of college. Experience is also of value, not just education.


[edit on 22-6-2009 by grapesofraft]

reply to post by secretagent woooman

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A star for you and thanks for your post. I can just imagine a world where no one works and everyone twitters and facebooks all day.

They would post stuff like, sitting on my butt twittering and doing facebook all day, like every other day for the last 5 years, because I am too fat and lazy to get out of bed, and why should I. I dont have to work and an android keeps brining me whatever I want to eat. Another 2 dozen donuts please!!!!

Originally posted by grapesofraft
reply to post by Bldrvgr

---

So you are trying to say that these companies somehow physically forced people to go the store to buy HD DVD?

So you think most of the world is so stupid that they see a commercial and then turn into zombies walking like a mummy to the nearest Best Buy?

If that isnt a prime example of blaming everyone but ourselves for our own bad choices, I do not know what is.

This is not even a response and makes me believe you do not even see the transition between models takeing place.

Research Toshiba HD DVD and Sony Blue Ray Competition. This should be well known by the majority of the populace anyway, its why i choose this example. Toshiba Built and manufactured HD DVD media and launched it at a specified date, in which Sony could not realistically compete with. Toshiba's media was sound at launch, Sony decided to jump gun and come out with their "Blue Ray" Media a week after without much testing and tweaking. Due to they had been pumping PS3 compatibility with it, and this was not done yet.

Blue Ray not only failed but had major technical issue. the only thing that was had, was a seperation of Movie industries contracted to either area. This tappered into Movie industries being able to have both media's and at this point Sony Went on to try to bribe rights over the other media. In which after alot of spending, they won.

This was not supply/demand this was competitive tactics.

reply to post by tatersalad

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Even if the whole financial system of America collapsed tomorrow, it does not mean that monetary systems would end everywhere in thte world or even in America. It just means you need a whole lot more greenbacks to buy anything.

Do you really think if the US collapses that China is going to start taking oranges for their products?

reply to post by Bldrvgr

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Ahh I see your point. But the thing you need to realize is that if ENOUGH people demanded HD DVD then it would have won out regardless. There was not a big enough difference in the two to make people switch to HD DVD, when Sony was using a little leverage.

In the long run what did we really loose. To be honest, I dont understand what is wrong with regular DVD's and regular TV. I dont really have a need to see every buger and wrinkle on every person that flashes across my TV. I plan to wait until the price comes down, and/or they phase out the old stuff.

reply to post by tatersalad

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Well its not the fault of the monetary system that things are a mess. It is the fault of stupid, greedy politicians who have no idea how to balance a budget or say no if it means one more vote. Then add to that, a population more than half full of people who want the government to hand everything to them and solve every problem in their lives and the world.

The problem isnt money. The problem is people.

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