Can matter actually exist? Nope!

Matter is a construct of mind. Quantum physiwww.abovetopsecret.com... seems to proving this more and more. Without mind there is nothing but possibility. Just posibility, no matter. Matter therefore reduceds itself to a epiphenomena of mind. You are right my friend. Star and flaged!
kx

Originally posted by symmetricAvenger
what you fail to understand is that matter is a combination of energy

have a nice day

Oh and read more books

Hey bud no disrespect but i think its you that needs to read more.
kx :-)

reply to post by Xtinguish


Absolute coffee house philosophy. "Does matter exist?" Of course it does.

It is observed, felt, measured...daily. The only thing that changes is the perception of the observer.

Please work harder on deep thoughts.

You are describing basic humanistic determinism.

Originally posted by Xtinguish
Ok! My first thread so I hope it doesn't bomb. I've did a few quick searches on this subject, and have found no philosophical discussions on it. I'm going to throw out some ideas I've read and become partial to on the subject. I look forward to replies of all kinds!

Look around! You will see all kinds of things. Chairs, walls, tables, your computer, and even other people perceiving the same exact things as you! Do these things really exist? Is it really crazy to say that truth would have that none of this exist at all? How could that be? Won't these things still be existing even if no one were in the room to perceive them? It isn't like matter simply vibrates in and out of reality when someone comes along to perceive it. That is just plain absurd!

So how does this matter work? How come things appear a certain shape, size, and color at a certain distance, and then completely different at another? Is it possible that that this matter is totally only mind-dependent? Meaning that all matter is dependent on us perceiving it through our senses? What is matter without the mind? What is color besides but various degrees of light? Isn't color just our eye, mind, and prism? If colors were real properties wouldn't they admit no alteration, as some living things in nature can perceive things we cannot?

What about sound? Isn't it just vibrations in the air beating on our ear drums? Doesn't sound need the mind for us to perceive it? How would it exist without the mind? The same for touch, taste, size, and motion.

Our sense of touch is always either pain or pleasure. Is either of those only just nerves sending signals to our brains? A perfect example of this would be putting one hand in a freezer, and the other in the oven. Then dip them both into a tub of water. Wouldn't the water appear cold to the hand which was heated and warm to the hand which was frozen? How can the water be both hot and cold? It can't. It is merely our mind creating the illusion of hot/cold and pain/pleasure.

How about size and motion? Doesn't something appear different to a fly then to a human? How if size is a independent characteristic without the mind? How about motion? If someone travels three miles at one mile an hour, and another perceives the same speed as one mile three miles per hour, who would appear to whom is going faster?

So, lastly is what George Berkley called his Master Argument. This idea is attempted to show no object can ever exist outside of the mind, and to even think so is inconceivable. Try and think of an object unconceived. Did you do it yet? Nope! Because soon as you try you have conceived of it!

There is a lot more to this argument of matters non-existance. I didn't want to have you guys reading a novel so I'll part here. I look forward to replies on the subject.

[edit on 22-6-2009 by Xtinguish]

It is a well proven scientific fact that there are "opposites" in all things in nature. Matter does infact exist as does Anti-Matter. Our solar system has long been thought to be a singular star system, however, astronomers have noted that all known solar systems are binary and thus, our solar system is also a binary star system. Our binary twin, a brown dwarf, is making its way in from a 3600 year journey bringing with it the Destroyer, Wormwood aka Nibiru or Planet X.

Although you make a compelling "opinion", science fact does not support your theory as proposed.

You might want to consider doing more indepth research before bloviating based on a quick search and lack of fact to support your argument.

Well done,

You just convinced me that everything around me is an illusion, which is a subject i've been having difficulty coming to terms with lately.

Everything is nothing until our mind perceives it.

Thankyou.

Love&Light

Jacob

reply to post by Xtinguish

This discussion has been going on in philosophic circles for years and years.
I don't understand the need for it.
All you really need out of a philosophy is useful truths.
That "fact" matter does not really exist is not a very useful truth.

It might be useful to realize that the entire physical universe is basically just a game that we created for our mutual amusement that got a little out of hand. (I happen to subscribe to this viewpoint.)

But I personally think we should spend most of our time asking questions that might lead to more useful answers. Those answers, I assure you, are no less difficult for most people to swallow than the proposition that all "reality" is basically just thought.

Here is an example of a question and answer that have actually proved useful:

Question: Who is ultimately responsible?

Answer: You are! (Equivalent answer: I am!)

I hope this serves to illustrate the basic problem that those who seek the truth must constantly deal with.

reply to post by Xtinguish


The physical reality can be compared to a holograph, a projection of the human ability to resonate with the energies perceived by our five senses. However as our five senses can only perceive 5% of all energy frequencies it means there is another 95% of mainly unperceived energies, which in turn will correlate to alternative dimensions and planes of existence. Our perception of the constraint of time and space are what define the relativity of events and form in the physical plane. Physical matter is the condensation of energy caught in one of the cosmic eddies of the space-time continuum. All possible dimensions, times, and positions are available, it is our perception to follow the flow within our time-line and within our dimensional boundaries, due to our own vibrational frequency, that prevent us from moving beyond the mind induced limitations. What we attune ourselves to is what we will perceive.

I don’t mean to be rude but a lot of what you are saying is plain wrong. Things really do happen in our physical world, it doesn’t matter if anyone is there to perceive it. You say

“What about sound? Isn't it just vibrations in the air beating on our ear drums? Doesn't sound need the mind for us to perceive it?”

NO! Sound is pressure waves traveling thru air and/or any other liquid/solid. Can you hear sound under water? Yes, but it sounds different because water has a higher density then air. Are you trying to say if no one is there to hear it that it doesn’t exist? That is crazy!!! Other animals may perceive it differently but that’s only because their ear is built differently but the pressure wave is still the same.

It is the same thing for all other senses. A light wave consists of energy in the form of electric and magnetic fields. The fields vibrate at right angles to the direction of movement of the wave, and at right angles to each other. Because light has both electric and magnetic fields, it is also referred to as electromagnetic radiation. Some animals can see more or less of the electromagnetic spectrum because their eyes are built differently but that doesn’t change what is there.

So yes, a person can live in there own made up perception of reality or one can try to understand everything around them…and live in reality.

What you're describing is a sort of physics-oriented existentialism, which I've always found extremely fascinating and fun to ponder. All facts, after all, are contingent upon the assumption of accurate perception and measurement. Suppose that assumption is wrong. What then?

I think I can go as far as saying, "Because I have only my perceptions to rely upon when experiencing what we call physical reality, it is at least possible that my perceived physical reality does not exist." I can't go so far as to say it definitely doesn't exist, though, because I have no means of proving that assertion. Matter can exist, but then again, perhaps it doesn't (at least as we perceive and conceive of it.)

I think another interesting question is, "Hypothetically assuming that my physical reality as perceived does not exist, how then is it that this question exists in the first place?" or, "What could exist, other than the perceived physical reality, to account for the fact that I am having this thought and raising this question?"

I don't think we can answer those questions definitively, but they are certainly fun and stimulating to consider nonetheless. I do feel that one thing we can say (almost) for certain is, "Something exists, by virtue of the fact that we are even having this discussion." What that "something" (or its nature) is, however, technically remains unknown and unproved.

[edit on 6/23/2009 by AceWombat04]

Philosophy is for people who don't want to know the truth.

reply to post by l_e_cox


Yes this is true.

However, although it is the individual responsibilty for everything, the collective aggregor of the unconscious minds bound in limited patterns and beliefs creates a huge field of energy maintaining the level of this mass belief. This is the premise historically for the basis of all religions, even now in the mass control exerted through mass media.

I can alter my own reality, I can change my perceptions but when I encounter the collective consciousness it is very easy to remain in resonance with the subtle field of their belief structure and have your own reality modulated still in a subtle way. One single moment of doubt in my mind would allow the collective consciousness to modify my reality.
For example, if I wanted to walk on water and as a crown gathered I felt their disbelief and in one moment I allowed myself to resonate with their disbelief I would fail. The constructs of our minds are engineered by centuries of human belief and we easily fall into resonance, and thus into step, with them.

reply to post by purplemer


sure

Feel free to look up my threads im sure you will understand why i say what i have


Thanks for the No disrespect part tho aye.

[edit on 23-6-2009 by symmetricAvenger]

reply to post by dviper785


Wow, thats alot to take in and I wish that I understood more of it, but I don't. In any case its interesting to me, also I noticed how you talked about the cat being alive and dead and how if you see it and its alive that the other reality doesnt exist.
Im curious because there was this show that explained some basic ideas on how we can live on multiple space times and or timelines.
We are essentially light beings right? Consist of light energy. Well like light can reflect and refract, kinda like passing light through a crystal and it seperates into two different parts. Well, that is the same light existing in two different places at the same time, but unaware of the other. So couldnt that alternate reality essentially exist in your reality, but on another space time or timeline, without this reality being aware of it?
Im sure what I just wrote might not make much sence since I dont know the basics but i thought id give it a shot.

Peace!

reply to post by purplemer


and what is your mind made from?

I think you miss the point of a physical object on a different level of vibration to that of the atoms energy

Originally posted by Level
I don’t mean to be rude but a lot of what you are saying is plain wrong. Things really do happen in our physical world, it doesn’t matter if anyone is there to perceive it. You say

“What about sound? Isn't it just vibrations in the air beating on our ear drums? Doesn't sound need the mind for us to perceive it?”

NO! Sound is pressure waves traveling thru air and/or any other liquid/solid. Can you hear sound under water? Yes, but it sounds different because water has a higher density then air. Are you trying to say if no one is there to hear it that it doesn’t exist? That is crazy!!! Other animals may perceive it differently but that’s only because their ear is built differently but the pressure wave is still the same.

It is the same thing for all other senses. A light wave consists of energy in the form of electric and magnetic fields. The fields vibrate at right angles to the direction of movement of the wave, and at right angles to each other. Because light has both electric and magnetic fields, it is also referred to as electromagnetic radiation. Some animals can see more or less of the electromagnetic spectrum because their eyes are built differently but that doesn’t change what is there.

So yes, a person can live in there own made up perception of reality or one can try to understand everything around them…and live in reality.

You miss something quite fundamental here though.

Sound is created in the human eye by a wave of energy being impeded in its wave path and the subtle surface of our ear drum vibrating in resonance with the frequency of the wave. Thus what we hear is the vibration of our ear drum, if the wave form had not interacted with our ear, there would have been no transfer of energy and no perception of sound, it would have continued its journey until it was dampened to nothingness by the frictional forces of other waves of energy encountered.
Consider an echo for example this is a wave of energy, vibrating between various surfaces, interacting with our ear drum to create a resonate vibration of corresponding frequency and with each pass being dampened by the frictional forces of the other wave forms it interacts with in a transfer of energy.

This is also the same principle with light. The energy wave interacts with my eye and through the process of retinal vibration creates an image which is projected by the brain. The energy wave would exist whether we perceived it or not. It is the interaction and transfer of energy that causes the reality perception. Consider what happens when you close your eyes.

Energy waves are existent, our five physical senses enter into a vibrational frequency with the corresponding energy that they are capable to perceive, but the perception only occurs when a conscious transfer takes place, which is then assimilated and identified by our brain/mind construct and the appropriate emotions, feeling, sensation, perception returned.

Originally posted by Xtinguish
So how does this matter work? How come things appear a certain shape, size, and color at a certain distance, and then completely different at another? Is it possible that that this matter is totally only mind-dependent? Meaning that all matter is dependent on us perceiving it through our senses? What is matter without the mind? What is color besides but various degrees of light? Isn't color just our eye, mind, and prism? If colors were real properties wouldn't they admit no alteration, as some living things in nature can perceive things we cannot?

What about sound? Isn't it just vibrations in the air beating on our ear drums? Doesn't sound need the mind for us to perceive it? How would it exist without the mind? The same for touch, taste, size, and motion.

Just because our brains interpret the light waves, sound waves and feelings that our ears, eyes and nerves pick up, doesn't mean that matter around is totally false. It is illogical to think that just for sensory experience, matter doesn't exist. First being, we are NOT sure if observation effects the objects in question. We do know that they stay where they are left and remain when we return, so we can only assume that they haven't moved.

So if your argument is based on our brain's interpretation of things, how come they are almost always the same every time we look at them? I don't believe that matter shape shifts when we look away. It still could do that... But your argument is against matter exists, why would you think that? Everything still "exists", there just isn't a said standard to what you can perceive, as everyone probably sees a warped version of the same object. To discount it even being there would be ignorant.

I have always wondered how we differentiate colors. What could be red to me could be orange to you, or vice versa. But then I realized, it is universal what colors are, so why does it really matter? If either of us can point out a color that we recognize as red, blue, yellow, why would it really matter what actual color we see?

Though I will give you something: it truly is impossible to tell what is reality and a dream. For all we know, we could be drifting in a dream. Maybe what is in a dream is truly real. All sensory experience shouldn't be taken to be 100% correct, but at the same time, it is important to take note of it and not discredit it at the same time.

So, lastly is what George Berkley called his Master Argument. This idea is attempted to show no object can ever exist outside of the mind, and to even think so is inconceivable. Try and think of an object unconceived. Did you do it yet? Nope! Because soon as you try you have conceived of it!

I can see objects in my mind that I have never seen before that serve no purpose. Objects or things conceived this way are attributed to a style called "abstract". You cannot think of anything unconceived (though, I don't know where you got from things not being able to exist outside the mind to unconceived), because once you think of ANYTHING you have conceived it. Everything we know is based on our sensory experience, but even so, we can conceive of things that do not exist in a sensory realm.

[edit on 6/23/2009 by FadeToBlack]

laboratory experiments in quantum physics show us that matter does not exists
without an observer:

link

Some physicists are uncomfortable with the idea that all individual quantum events are innately random. This is why many have proposed more complete theories, which suggest that events are at least partially governed by extra "hidden variables". Now physicists from Austria claim to have performed an experiment that rules out a broad class of hidden-variables theories that focus on realism -- giving the uneasy consequence that reality does not exist when we are not observing it (Nature 446 871).

so, the matter is just a consequence of our conscious observation





[edit on 23-6-2009 by donhuangenaro]

reply to post by donhuangenaro


good point but what they left out "being human ofcourse"

You was created



acting like god is a bad idea to say the least...

how can matter be fake if you are made from it and ofcouse there would be no matter if you was not alive...

We are the observer

its backwords to think otherwise...

But if i pinch your skin it gets very real does it not?


feel free to read www.abovetopsecret.com...






[edit on 23-6-2009 by symmetricAvenger]

wow juicy, juicy stuff here.

I think the endless search for the true nature of reality defines who we are as a species. But that is all it is right now. A SEARCH. We think the answers are there but honestly we aren't ready for those answers IMO. We are like those 2-D flatlanders about to be introduced to a 3-D object. Maybe along the lines of a caveman with fire for the first time. When it happens, everything will change.

If the cat is in the box and imperceptible until we open the box and look at it, what about the cats reality in that nothing exists apart from the cat itself and the box until someone else opens the box?

Surely by the same philosophy none of us exist until we are in the presence of someone or something else who can perceive us?

Does this not make the whole process of "being" somewhat useless?

If nobody needs perceive me why shouldnt i sit infront of sports programmes played by people who really dont exist and filmed by people who dont exist either to be watched, bet upon and cared about by people who dont exist?

My brain hurts aswell and im wondering if i have the wrong end of the stick here but when all is said and done, does it really matter?