Why America ISN'T a Christian Nation

Originally posted by namehere

no, english common law is the basis of our laws in america.

And what is the base of English Common Law?

Originally posted by Zuzubar
The ten commandments should be posted everywhere.

The whole point of freedom FROM religion is that you won't have to see a particular religious dogma posted EVERYWHERE. There is no one idea, philosophy, or religion that SHOULD be plastered everywhere. Sounds a lot like 1984 to me.

Originally posted by 23rd_Degree
The whole point of freedom FROM religion is that you won't have to see a particular religious dogma posted EVERYWHERE. There is no one idea, philosophy, or religion that SHOULD be plastered everywhere. Sounds a lot like 1984 to me.

Ahh, and someone made my arguement for me as though it was a good thing. First ammendment:

The First Amendment

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Thing of it is, it says OF religion, not FROM religion. Christianity is an evangelical religion, just as Islam is. The first ammendment states "no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof." By limiting where people who practice these religions may practice them, congress and other bodies of law are essensially prohibiting the free exercuse of thier religion.

What a ridiculous conclusion!!!!! You may note that the free excercise of your "religion" may not infringe apon anothers equal right of free excercise.

Keep your church OUT of my Government, and I will keep my Government out of your church.

The religious right is neither!

Originally posted by scottsquared
What a ridiculous conclusion!!!!!

You may note that the free excercise of your "religion" may not infringe apon anothers equal right of free excercise.

And how is posting the ten commandments infringing upon another's equal right of free excercise?

Keep your church OUT of my Government, and I will keep my Government out of your church.

By making laws to do such? And how far should I keep my church OUT of your government? Should I make sure people who practice my religion stay out of politics? That would make sense, since it is your government, and not our government...

Sometimes I think people confuse what you should do with what you will be forced to do.

I think the Founders showed their genius by making the distinction, and I think this is where a lot of uninformed people get things confused.

Hardly any founding government document mentions religion, aside from the point that government must stay out of it. How this can be stretched to indicate that the Founders were not using the Bible as a guide and source for a lot of their ideas is intellectually dishonest. I see the Founders as saying to the people, "You should be good people, based on Christian morals, but you will not be punished for not being a Christian, unless it imposes on another's rights."

Imagine if you had the opportunity to create a totally new government. Where would you start? You start with some basic tenets you believe in that have come from somewhere. Something provides the basis for the tenets, and even if that "something" isn't directly quoted or totally adhered to in your documents does not mean it did not provide those basic tenets. That's what the Founders did. Not just with the Bible, but the teachings of the Bible played the leading role in providing the tenets of our country. The Romans provided some, so did the Anglo-Saxons, but the Bible provided a huge amount. Furthermore, Anglo-Saxon government and English Common Law share so many similarities to tenets in the Bible that it become difficult to separate Anglo-Saxon influence from Biblical influence, etc., because some things are so similar.

It has become a trendy thing to ignore history and declare the US to be non-Christian, or to say that Christians are the ones re-writing our history. Only those who do not know the history of the Revolution make these claims. And only the ignorant accept the claims. I can't say it often enough: get your hands on the original writings of the Founders and read them. Don't rely soley on summaries and interpretations. Especially on a site like this, how can people not see that there is a propaganda attempt to cause people to not only become removed from the Christian roots of the country, but from constutional principles in general?

Originally posted by 23rd_Degree

Originally posted by Zuzubar
The ten commandments should be posted everywhere.

The whole point of freedom FROM religion is that you won't have to see a particular religious dogma posted EVERYWHERE. There is no one idea, philosophy, or religion that SHOULD be plastered everywhere. Sounds a lot like 1984 to me.

Again (and again) this is your opinion, not how the nation was founded. There never was an idea of freedom FROM religion, as the Founding Fathers expected the nation to be Christian.
No, this does not sound like 1984. The push for freedom FROM religion is a new idea, and that new idea is more like 1984. Freedom FROM religion, as well as the rest of the left-wing secular drive. As the liberal agenda tries to rewrite American history leaving God out and drive even the mentioning of Him out, they turn around and revise the very moral backbone of the nation, telling us what is right and wrong, telling us what we can and cannot say...the nation was strong and free before the new agenda began its campaign to undermine our culture and subvert our nation and we are losing not only our national strength but also our moral compass.
No, the old ideas upon which the nation was founded has not caused the 1984 analogy. The new agenda, one that only began in the '50's that you think is the original intent, is the danger to liberty.

Jungleboy,
Samantics not your strong suit?

Do us all a favor and do just like you said; keep you narrow minded eclesiastic shrewpoints OUT of government.

Since when is it a Christian virtue to berate, insult, or gloat? All practices I have witnessed YOU using. and by thumbs down I mean you should be thrown to the lions.

It is precicely the Christian self-rightious attitude that I find so infuriating. Calling The Good ol' US of A a Christian nation is a slap in the face of every non-christian living here or who has ever contributed to the creation, refinement, or continuation of this Great Experiment.

[Edited on 4-5-2004 by scottsquared]

[Edited on 4-5-2004 by scottsquared]

Originally posted by Preest
Thank goodness this country isn't Christian and isn't run by Christians. The U.S. would be no better than some of the fundamentalist Islamic countries out there.

How did you pick up that knee-jerk idea? You are ignorant of your nation and you are ignorant of both the religions to which you refer.

AS a matter of fact, as I've attempted to explain, and have explained in depth in other threads on this board, the nation is a Christian nation. It was made that way by design. The design of the Founding Fathers. The fact that you do not understand this is due to you not learning the history of this nation. Is it your fault? Now, yes, to some extent. To what extent I do not know as I don't know your age, if you are still in school (the public education system, I assume) or how long you've been out. I don't know if this is the first time anyone who has actually overcome the public education misinformation system has given you any hint that there is truth and fact that has been deliberately hidden from you and if you've had time to learn the truth. But now I have charged you with knowledge, and you are now obligated to pursue it.

I've been pursuing this particular topic (constitution and the intent of the Founding Fathers) for well over ten years, now, and I can tell you for a fact that there is much information tha tis being intentionally witheld from our students, and much history that is being rewritten to not reflect the true nature of our history. I firmly believe there is a conspiratorial reason for this crime against the nation, I believe there is an agenda that certain groups are pursuing, and I believe that the end result of this agenda is to the total detriment of the citizenry of this nation. Within a couple more generation at most, we will be one nation, under D.C., with liberty and justice to whomever the U.N. says.

Originally posted by scottsquared
Jungleboy,
Samantics not your strong suit?

I'm not really understanding. The rest of your post seemed like an irrelevant rant which didn't really discuss the issues, so I removed it from the quote. But...Could you explain this question?

EDIT: May as well address the rest of the post, to save time. When did I ever say I was perfect? I feel emotions just like you do. I try to keep them in check and be kind all the time, but I slip. My goal is to always be kind, I just don't always reach that goal. Guess you caught me, I'm failable

[Edited on 5-4-2004 by junglejake]

Originally posted by AF1
The ten commandments is the law in the bible, and everyone who follows the faith must abide by these laws. There has recently been a movement in the US by Christians who believe that this country was founded on Christian principles, and feel that things such as the 10 commandments should be in public places. What many don't realize is that American law is much differnet then biblical law.

1. You shall have no other gods before me

This runs directly counter to the first amendment. This commandment demands obedience to a single, specific god. The first amendment gives the right for worshiping any or none.

2. You shall not make yourself a graven image, nor any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

Once again, this runs directly against the freedom of religion in the First Amendment. There is also some dispute as to what counts as a graven image. The catholic church has statues and stained glass windows, while other christian denominations consider these iconography, and therefore in violation of this commandment. Some religious orders even go so far as to be against non-religious images and photographs. If the law prohibited non-religious images that would then be a violation of freedom of speech/expression.

3. You shall not take the name of Jehovah your God in vain

Now this commandment is directly counter to the freedom of speech. For being the 'basis for our laws' about one third of the commandments run directly counter to constitutional rights.

4. Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God.

While there is a tradition of seven day week, there is no law mandating that anyone keep the sabbath. People are free to work on any day they wish. Also the tradition here is for a 5 day work week, with two days off on the weekend. Does that mean we are in violation of the commandment? Should we now give up our Saturdays and report to work?

5. Honor your father and your mother

Frankly, some parents might not be all that worthy of honor. There is no law requiring a person to honor their parents. In fact there are laws to protect children from abusive parents, and children can be taken away from unfit parents.

6. You shall not kill

A good commandment, but hardly original. Laws against murder existed in pretty much all cultures long before hearing about the 10 commandments. Therefore claiming such laws are based on the 10 commandments are unfounded.

7. You shall not commit adultery

A very good suggestion, if you define adultery as between a married person and someone who is not their spouse. However, there is no federal law against it. State laws will vary on the subject. If you define adultery as between any couple not married to one another, even if they are both single, then there are even fewer laws against it, and the state laws can probably be challenged. There was not too long ago a case in California: A man and a woman were brought up on charges for living together. The charges were brought up by his ex-girlfriend who found religion, ignoring that they lived together for a while. The district attorney went to the court to have the law stricken from the books.

8. You shall not steal

Like #6, good but hardly original.

9. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor

like #6 and #8 good but not original.

10. You shall not covet your neighbor's house. You shall not covet your neighbor's wife, or his male slave, or his female slave, or his ox, or his ass, or anything that is your neighbor's

Isn't that what capitalism is all about? There are no laws against thoughts or desires. Any such law would run counter to civil liberties.

Postlude

Out of the 10 commandments, 4 (1, 2, 3, 10) are counter to American laws. 3 (6, 8, 9) are part of our legal system, but are part of just about every legal system in history. 2 (4, 5) are not a part of our laws. And 1 (7) may or may not be a part of state or local laws. Even in a state that has laws concerning #7, that still means less than half of the 10 commandments carry any legal weight, and an equal number are illegal to enforce.

Those that claim the 10 commandments are our basis for law apparently do not know the law very well. The only thing funnier is those that want it posted illegally in schools "to teach children respect for the law"

www.skepticreport.com...

your thinking way to much on this man

"America" is about as Christian as Saddam was a "Good Muslim".

This personification of inantimate objects has got to stop. I know people like to think their country is moral, their car is a bad ass or they live in a good neighbor hood...

But it's the people. Not the things.

"America" is a pile of dirt seperating the Atlantic from the Pacific. However the IDEA of America is something much more. That IDEA is the ultimate blank slate...FREEDOM. Not just for Christians.

And all due respect to the "Founding Fathers" but they're dead. They may have been Christians...though some say bad ones. Some say they had certain ideas for what we'd become. Guess what? Doesn't matter.

That blank slate of FREEDOM is bigger than the founding fathers and whatever ideas they may have had. Things change. People invent assult rifles and the like making some blanket interpretation of our founders intent highly questionable. But I digress.

TC was on target with saying a better question is whether or not America is NOW Christian???

Answer: Hell no. And it shouldn't be.

The 10 commandments are impossible for a human to follow. We and our friends are just too corrupt.

Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
Again (and again)

What's with the "again"? Have you and I discussed this before?

this is your opinion.

I am well aware of that, but thanks for pointing out the obvious

There never was an idea of freedom FROM religion, as the Founding Fathers expected the nation to be Christian.

How do you know what the founders were thinking? If I can't know, then you can't know.
Freedom from religion seems implied within the context of "freedom of religion" since it would be possible for me to choose no religion as my religion of choice. (But that's just my opinion, mind you.)

No, this does not sound like 1984.

I take it that is your opinion?

The push for freedom FROM religion is a new idea, and that new idea is more like 1984.

When I say freedom FROM religion, I mean the freedom not to be persecuted for not believing in deity of whatever flavor is most popular at the moment. It has nothing to do with stopping others from believing in God, Buddha, or the Tooth Fairy. I advocate total freedom to choose to believe, think about, or have faith in anything without government interference of any kind and without persecution from any groups or individuals. Is that like 1984? If it is, then call me "Big Brother."

[Edited on 4-5-2004 by 23rd_Degree]

Originally posted by jrod
The 10 commandments are impossible for a human to follow. We and our friends are just too corrupt.

Well I'm not sure about you, jrod, but I have no problem following the ten commandments. Don't murder, don't steal, respect your parents, don't lie, don't commit adultery, these are things any reasonable person should be able to live by. I live my life this way, which would be following these rules, but I'm a human. So, apparently it is possible for a human to follow the ten commandments. They're based on reason (except for the last ones about worshipping God) so why wouldn't a human being with reason be able to follow them?

Basically, our government WAS founded on Christian values because Christian values are things that any reasonable person would follow. Someone said our laws were based on English Common Law, and someone else asked "well what was ECL based on?" It was based on reasonable values and morals that are found in the ten commandments and any reasonable human being's mind.

I just want to point something out for people who always bring up the first amendment in response to this argument. Let's remember that the Bill of Rights was not originally in the Constitution, which means they are not the foundation. Sure, they're extremely important and integral to the country, but they are amendments, not foundations. You gotta remember that when talking about foundation.

[Edited on 4-5-2004 by Faisca]

Rant and 23rd both make excellent points. In response to junglejake, and TC et. al. should take note; Semantics is the nuance of meaning to words and how they are used. For example, OF and FROM, synonyms
www.m-w.com...
www.m-w.com...

I question your interpretation of the Constitution.

I am not a christian and it doesnt bother me a bit when christians claim this a christian nation. Obviously, i am proof, and others like me are proof, and other religions here are also proof. It cant be a christian nation.
It may have been predominately christian several hundred years ago, but who really cares. What does that have to do with today?
As the bible loses its value in the modern world, it becomes just a polarizing book for the less than intelligent.
I think clinging to the false statement 'america is a christian nation' is the last effort of the religious. The last breath of a dying man,,,,,so to speak.
Thats why they defend it so much.Even though it is not true, But then again, when have you ever turned to a christian for the truth.

Originally posted by ashley
I am not a christian and it doesnt bother me a bit when christians claim this a christian nation. Obviously, i am proof, and others like me are proof, and other religions here are also proof. It cant be a christian nation.
It may have been predominately christian several hundred years ago, but who really cares. What does that have to do with today?
As the bible loses its value in the modern world, it becomes just a polarizing book for the less than intelligent.
I think clinging to the false statement 'america is a christian nation' is the last effort of the religious. The last breath of a dying man,,,,,so to speak.
Thats why they defend it so much.Even though it is not true, But then again, when have you ever turned to a christian for the truth.

People like you piss me the hell off. Why must people stereotype every religious person as less than intelligent???? Just because we choose to believe in a higher power that makes us stupid and ignorant? F*ck that. I feel sorry for those of you who feel this way. It's too bad that you don't believe in any kind of higher power, I'm not sure what you have to look forward to in life. I'm really sorry for this rant, I know it has no place here, but I had to get that off my chest.

To make this kind of apply to this topic, I think it's sad that religion is becoming considered "The last breath of a dying man." I'm sorry, but unless Armageddon happens soon, I'm sure Christianity will be around a lot longer than the United States (not America, btw, we're a nation, not a continent). Even if Christianity isn't around forever, the morals and values that it is based on and preaches will be, and those are the things that our country was founded upon.

Well said. The values are true, honest, and universal. I doubt that Christianity will fade away any more than any of the world religions. Spirituality of any kind is a necesary component of humanity. Everyone has some kind of relationship with a "higher" power, even if that relation is of skeptisism or denial.

To make this kind of apply to this topic, I think it's sad that religion is becoming considered "The last breath of a dying man." I'm sorry, but unless Armageddon happens soon, I'm sure Christianity will be around a lot longer than the United States (not America, btw, we're a nation, not a continent). Even if Christianity isn't around forever, the morals and values that it is based on and preaches will be, and those are the things that our country was founded upon.

Its true, religion is dying. The amount of time spent worshiping is considerably less than it used to be. Take 1000 years ago for instance, what i understand is that religion was a major force in these peoples lives. Take 500 years ago, even less. Take 50 years ago, still around and quite predominant but even less. Take now, sundays only and sometimes not even that. People are to busy nowadays and with that comes education. With education comes knowledge. With knowledge becomes enlightenment and with more enlightenment there is less need for religion. Im sorry but its that simple.
What is your blind self talking about morals and values for? Are cuss words christian?
Armaggedon may be coming, but only for you. Maybe that is what the lunatic on the corner means whwn he says the 'end is near'.
The end of religion. If that is the case,'bring it on' as another fantastic christian once said.
That reminds me. Is letting innocents be killed, invading other countries, being an alcoholic, lying, fathering disrespectful over-indulgent children, being greedy, being un-educated and a failure a modern christian?
It sure doesnt look like the one you guys are always talking about.
Nevermind, maybe things are just getting more desperate on the way out. You"ll take anyone nowadays.