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Why America ISN'T a Christian Nation

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AF1

posted on May, 4 2004 @ 01:29 PM
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The ten commandments is the law in the bible, and everyone who follows the faith must abide by these laws. There has recently been a movement in the US by Christians who believe that this country was founded on Christian principles, and feel that things such as the 10 commandments should be in public places. What many don't realize is that American law is much differnet then biblical law.


1. You shall have no other gods before me

This runs directly counter to the first amendment. This commandment demands obedience to a single, specific god. The first amendment gives the right for worshiping any or none.

2. You shall not make yourself a graven image, nor any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

Once again, this runs directly against the freedom of religion in the First Amendment. There is also some dispute as to what counts as a graven image. The catholic church has statues and stained glass windows, while other christian denominations consider these iconography, and therefore in violation of this commandment. Some religious orders even go so far as to be against non-religious images and photographs. If the law prohibited non-religious images that would then be a violation of freedom of speech/expression.

3. You shall not take the name of Jehovah your God in vain

Now this commandment is directly counter to the freedom of speech. For being the 'basis for our laws' about one third of the commandments run directly counter to constitutional rights.

4. Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God.

While there is a tradition of seven day week, there is no law mandating that anyone keep the sabbath. People are free to work on any day they wish. Also the tradition here is for a 5 day work week, with two days off on the weekend. Does that mean we are in violation of the commandment? Should we now give up our Saturdays and report to work?

5. Honor your father and your mother

Frankly, some parents might not be all that worthy of honor. There is no law requiring a person to honor their parents. In fact there are laws to protect children from abusive parents, and children can be taken away from unfit parents.

6. You shall not kill

A good commandment, but hardly original. Laws against murder existed in pretty much all cultures long before hearing about the 10 commandments. Therefore claiming such laws are based on the 10 commandments are unfounded.

7. You shall not commit adultery

A very good suggestion, if you define adultery as between a married person and someone who is not their spouse. However, there is no federal law against it. State laws will vary on the subject. If you define adultery as between any couple not married to one another, even if they are both single, then there are even fewer laws against it, and the state laws can probably be challenged. There was not too long ago a case in California: A man and a woman were brought up on charges for living together. The charges were brought up by his ex-girlfriend who found religion, ignoring that they lived together for a while. The district attorney went to the court to have the law stricken from the books.

8. You shall not steal

Like #6, good but hardly original.

9. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor

like #6 and #8 good but not original.

10. You shall not covet your neighbor's house. You shall not covet your neighbor's wife, or his male slave, or his female slave, or his ox, or his ass, or anything that is your neighbor's

Isn't that what capitalism is all about? There are no laws against thoughts or desires. Any such law would run counter to civil liberties.

Postlude

Out of the 10 commandments, 4 (1, 2, 3, 10) are counter to American laws. 3 (6, 8, 9) are part of our legal system, but are part of just about every legal system in history. 2 (4, 5) are not a part of our laws. And 1 (7) may or may not be a part of state or local laws. Even in a state that has laws concerning #7, that still means less than half of the 10 commandments carry any legal weight, and an equal number are illegal to enforce.

Those that claim the 10 commandments are our basis for law apparently do not know the law very well. The only thing funnier is those that want it posted illegally in schools "to teach children respect for the law"


www.skepticreport.com...




posted on May, 4 2004 @ 01:34 PM
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Posting the 10 commandments in schools would also create more racial/ethnic/religious clashes. No everyone is Christian or of other Catholic based religions



posted on May, 4 2004 @ 01:41 PM
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Listen America is a free country. Post Islam if you would like! The ten commandments should be posted everywhere.



posted on May, 4 2004 @ 01:43 PM
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I agree you you guys here. America isn't a christian country and it shouldn't be. American citizens are allowed to wordhip whom ever they wish, but the government that runs our country should not claim membership to any religion. Countries that claim to be "christian" or "islamic" or anything else only create problems for every one else. Just take one long look at the mess in the Middle East and tell me that church and state should be joined.
But what scares me is how GW seems to be trying to convert our country into a fundamentalist christian country, by constantly talking about how his "faith guides his desicions" or something to that effect, along with calling our enemies "evil ones/evil doers" this sort of mentality will not solve any problems with anyone.

...man I feel better now that I got that off of my chest



posted on May, 4 2004 @ 01:47 PM
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Originally posted by Zuzubar
Listen America is a free country. Post Islam if you would like! The ten commandments should be posted everywhere.


Post them anywhere except in/on/around government organizations (i.e. public schools, public libraries, post offices, town halls, courts, police/firestations, and the like)



posted on May, 4 2004 @ 01:52 PM
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Originally posted by Zuzubar
Listen America is a free country.


No country is free when it is another that is deciding your fate.



posted on May, 4 2004 @ 02:11 PM
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The original Fifth Commandment does not say "thou shalt not KILL" It says "Thou shalt not MURDER and there is a difference as was meant to be. King James corrupted the whole Torah to control Christians much like the Republicans corrupt the news.



posted on May, 4 2004 @ 02:13 PM
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OOP!! I meant the SIXTH



posted on May, 4 2004 @ 02:15 PM
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Originally posted by Jonna

Originally posted by Zuzubar
Listen America is a free country.


No country is free when it is another that is deciding your fate.


Cant have absolute freedom...that would lead to anarchy...chaos...



posted on May, 4 2004 @ 02:17 PM
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*sigh*

Why is it that people try and come up with so many reasons to prove that America is not a Christian nation, and their "research" is some website that supports what they want.

I've been studying this stuff since before the internet was available, and I think that's the best way to do it. If you have to buy books with your own money and wade through the words of the "Evil White Men" the old-fashoined way, you'll be more likely to want to know the truth rather than find things that justify your position.

The fact of the matter is, if you read and research the origins of the nation, it is clear and evident that this nation is (was) a Christian nation. The attempts to claim this is (was) not a Christian nation are made on basically two points of argument, the Treaty of Tripoli and Thomas Jefferson's mis-quoted mention of "Wall of Separation...". Neither of which are taken in context or with the full revelation of the total circumstance.

The better argument one could certainly make is whether or not we are still a Christian nation. Is there enough evidence of this being a Christian nation to find us guilty if such a thing were prosecutable? Yes, I know the vast majority of American citizens claim to be "Christian", but other than surveys, where is the proof, the evidence? I think the prosecutor would use the most watched TV shows and biggest selling movies and sway most objective juries, wouldn't you say?



posted on May, 4 2004 @ 02:21 PM
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Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
*sigh*

Why is it that people try and come up with so many reasons to prove that America is not a Christian nation, and their "research" is some website that supports what they want.

I've been studying this stuff since before the internet was available, and I think that's the best way to do it. If you have to buy books with your own money and wade through the words of the "Evil White Men" the old-fashoined way, you'll be more likely to want to know the truth rather than find things that justify your position.

The fact of the matter is, if you read and research the origins of the nation, it is clear and evident that this nation is (was) a Christian nation. The attempts to claim this is (was) not a Christian nation are made on basically two points of argument, the Treaty of Tripoli and Thomas Jefferson's mis-quoted mention of "Wall of Separation...". Neither of which are taken in context or with the full revelation of the total circumstance.

The better argument one could certainly make is whether or not we are still a Christian nation. Is there enough evidence of this being a Christian nation to find us guilty if such a thing were prosecutable? Yes, I know the vast majority of American citizens claim to be "Christian", but other than surveys, where is the proof, the evidence? I think the prosecutor would use the most watched TV shows and biggest selling movies and sway most objective juries, wouldn't you say?


I think its just that religion isnt treated the same way as it was a few decades ago...people tend to write it off or hold it second...its lost its importance...Im not a religious fanatic myself (though I am Christian.....Lutheran to be exact)....but hasnt anyone noticed that the less religion we have in America the faster its going downhill?



posted on May, 4 2004 @ 02:31 PM
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America is a "christian" nation because the majority of people claim one of it's sects as their religion. It was founded having Christian values and still does (though to a lesser extent).

Honestly though, I really don't understand what the problem is with having Christian values as the base for our nation. What is so bad with not killing people, coveting what is not yours ect ect ect.



posted on May, 4 2004 @ 02:32 PM
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Originally posted by AF1
Those that claim the 10 commandments are our basis for law apparently do not know the law very well. The only thing funnier is those that want it posted illegally in schools "to teach children respect for the law"



You have it exactly backwards: those who know the law well are the ones who know that the 10 commandments are the basis of our law.

I've said this before on another thread: only those who know nothing about the history and founding of our country would think that US law were not rooted in the ten commandments.

Here's are some essential points you must realize:
1. The ten commandments were given to a homogenous group, both racially and religiously. The government of the ancient Israelites was a theocracy. They had no problem mixing religious and civil laws.
2. Law enforcement under the 10 commandments was done by individuals bringing other individuals in front of the elders for a public trial. There was no police force. The testimony of witnesses was necessary for "conviction." Recompense was the rule, not punishment. If you stole a neighbor's ox, you returned it along with other stuff. For the most part, only crimes against the people as a whole brought "punishment". And there were no prisons. If you were found guilty of something, you recompensed the victims, you were banished, or you were killed.
3. The founders were very well educated in the governments of Rome, Greece, Ancient Israel, the Anglo-Saxons, and of course the Common Law of England. Ideas about democracy were taken heavily from the Greeks, property rights from the Romans, but the ideas of recompense and limited government cam from the Israelites and the Anglo-Saxons. The laws of the Anglo-Saxons had much in common with the Israelites, in terms of trial by jury, representation of the people (tithing-man, vil-man, hundred man, earl, shire reef, etc.), all laws had to be accepted by the people to take effect, and reparations to victims of crime. Compare this to how the Israelites were organized in the wilderness, how accusations of wrongdoing amoung the people were handled, and how reparations were spelled out for crimes. No room here to discuss the similarities, but the Founders were well aware of them.
4. The Founders made the government (force) separate from the beliefs of the people. The set up a government that allowed to basically do whatever you wanted, as long as it did not infringed on the rights of others, or put the country in jeopardy. They made the country as close to anarchy as they could without becoming an anarchy. This meant that you could not force someone to believe anything religious. Even if everyone else believed a certains way, you could not force the one person to believe the same way. They did this both because they felt it was wrong to control another's conscience (because it was their God-given right to think how they wanted), and because they said seen from England what happens when the church gets the power of force.
5. The laws of Ancient Israel predate the laws of Roman by many, many years. All legal systems will have common laws, but we are talking about where the Founders got many of their ideas from.
6. The founders thought they took the best from all legal systems and created the best system yet FOR A FEDERAL SYSTEM, NOT INDIVIDUAL AND NOT STATE OR LOCAL. They feared tyrrany so much that they basically guaranteed the Federal government could not oppress the people. Laws of other lower-level government organizations could make other laws, as long as it did not violate the constitution.

Answer these questions:
Where did the idea of reparation to victims come from?
Where did the idea of pyramid-shaped representation (10, 50, etc.) come from?
Where did the idea of leaders being chosen by the people come from?
Where did the idea of laws taking effect by common consent come from?
Where did the idea of "innocent until prove guilty" come from?
Where did the idea of facing your accuser come from?
Where did the idea of calling witnesses come from?
Surety...
Trespass....
Contracts...
Conscription...

It goes on and on. Notice that employer could not force their laborers to work on the sabbath (first labor laws)

The 10 commandments are the essense of all the laws of Ancient Israel, akin to a constitution. The 10 commandments is also a moral code. The Founders rejected the idea that the Federal government could force morals. The fact that they left out of the Constitution enforcement of moral codes and the fact that they included protection against infringements of personal beliefs, shows that they understood the importance of personal interpretation of morality. It does not show that they reject the ideas; it shows they rejected government being involved in them.

One word about the 10 commandments and the laws of Ancient Israel: the 10 commandments are not the same thing as the Mosaic Law which is not the same thing as the Carnal Law which is not the same thing as the Talmud. But they all together fall under Ancient Israel Law.

Biblibal Law by Clark is a good law book on the laws of Ancient Israel. Very dry though.



posted on May, 4 2004 @ 02:34 PM
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Cause people are overly touchy and want there EXACT beliefs to be #1 or nothing at all...America was formed by Christians and Based on Christian values...then people came over from who knows where, live here...then want things to change...I say...if you dont like it...leave...and find somewhere more suitable to your interests...



posted on May, 4 2004 @ 02:43 PM
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Originally posted by Red_Rocket

But what scares me is how GW seems to be trying to convert our country into a fundamentalist christian country, by constantly talking about how his "faith guides his desicions" or something to that effect,


Would you rather he lied to the public? I'll bet that if he did, and there was a quote taken of him in private where he said that people would be a lot angrier for him hiding that aspect of his decision making process from the population...



posted on May, 4 2004 @ 02:45 PM
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People will say anything to hate on Bush...if he's religious or an Athiest...doesnt matter to the democrat war machine around elections...theyll try and spin anything...



posted on May, 4 2004 @ 02:46 PM
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Originally posted by BasementAddix
Cant have absolute freedom...that would lead to anarchy...chaos...


Chaos and anarchy can be the same thing...or they can be opposites. Too bad I can't remember where the conversation Amuk and I had over it is, but true anarchy is taking complete responcibility for your actions and not having someone else dictate right and wrong to you; there is a huge difference. It is a self governing system where you are as free as you allow yourself to be.

I vaguely recall a story of some island somewhere that had this sort of system. There was no law; there was only the individual accepting the consequences of their actions. If you were to kill someone, expect that person's family to kill you. It seems like the ideal system, but it would never work in America as we do not take absolute responsibility for our actions/reactions.



posted on May, 4 2004 @ 02:48 PM
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Thank goodness this country isn't Christian and isn't run by Christians. The U.S. would be no better than some of the fundamentalist Islamic countries out there.



posted on May, 4 2004 @ 02:51 PM
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Originally posted by Preest
Thank goodness this country isn't Christian and isn't run by Christians. The U.S. would be no better than some of the fundamentalist Islamic countries out there.


Not run by Christians?...since when?...EVERY president has been a Christians...and that doesnt mean they'll be fanatical....most of us christians arent fanatical...a TRUE christian...would be a GREAT president...if he/she followed it correctly...



posted on May, 4 2004 @ 02:54 PM
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Originally posted by piboy

Originally posted by AF1
Those that claim the 10 commandments are our basis for law apparently do not know the law very well. The only thing funnier is those that want it posted illegally in schools "to teach children respect for the law"



You have it exactly backwards: those who know the law well are the ones who know that the 10 commandments are the basis of our law.

no, english common law is the basis of our laws in america.





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