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Would you sacrifice your soul to save other souls?

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posted on Aug, 3 2009 @ 09:41 AM
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Originally posted by anonamousantichrist
if you do not want your thread to turn into a debate about the validity of a idea as intangible as hell i understand.

that said, how can you then say "Also keep in mind that even good, law-abiding people can go to hell too?"

seems like a counterproductive and purposefully confusing contradiction.

i'm just sayin...........


Well I don't know if they'll answer, but my explanation is a hypothesis and nothing more. So, just a theory here is all about how Hell/Heaven works.

Simplest example would be that law-abiding doesn't really mean you're "good" because the Biblical Hell has nothing to do with laws anymore after the Old Testament and has nothing to do with being good or bad. It's all about getting forgiveness from the savior instead.

See a works based system is like how many good deeds you've done compared to how many bad deeds and it's all based on the law. That kind of system can devolve into a holier than thou thing. I'm better than you. He's better than that guy. He's not holy at all!

This is a barrier to loving your fellow man hence a law/works based system is against what Jesus would want because everybody is tallying up their good deeds, but once they get enough good deeds they end up sinning anyway because they have the sin of pride.

And after thinking upon the best way to explain it is to say there are no good and bad people. Just good people who sin and do evil things. Even Jesus says something to the effect of no one is "good" but the father in Heaven.

Okay but some people take that as an insult because they think he's saying they're a bad person, but if we just explain a little, maybe people will see he's just talking about their human nature.

What it's saying is there is no "good" person. There's just someone who's not as bad as someone else. And I don't care if you're murderer or what you can always find someone worse than you. That's just human nature.

So, everyone thinks THEY'RE good because, "I'm not as bad as that guy!" I only lied 10 times! He lied 20! I should get into Heaven! Not him!

Even if you kill someone you start thinking. Well one ain't so bad right? I mean, but somebody that's killed two or three. Now they're REALLY BAD right? They should go to Hell! Not little old me! Until of course the murderer kills someone else and now it's two people and so on.

Okay and the thief thinks, well I'm not a murderer right? I'm not really "evil" right? So, I'm still basically "good" right? Next thing you know you could be stealing, lying, cheating, doing drugs. But at least you're not a "murderer" right? Okay and then the murderers just look to the pedophiles and say well, AT LEAST I DON'T KILL CHILDREN!

So, you're still a "good" guy right? You see this in prison actually. The murderers try to kill the pedophiles. No matter how bad the people are they all hate the pedophiles. Cause you know, it's not the murderers that are the real "bad" people right? So see, someone is always "worse" than you are. So, of course some people think they're a "good" person because someone else is worse.

And of course you ask someone how many times they should be able to lie or steal or murder in a works based system before they can't go to Heaven anymore and guess what? It usually turns out that the number should always be one more than how many times you've done it.

If someone lied three times and I ask, they'll say well a person should have to lie four times before going to hell! But if they've lied five times and I ask again they'll say a person should have to lie SIX times! Only five lies! I'm still GOOD!

But it always starts at 1. Just 1. Because you say, well so if you lie 1 time you should go to Hell? Well, no it was just 1 mistake right? Okay, well how about two or three or sixteen? Where does it stop in a works based system?

But who shouldn't get into Heaven? It's always that other guy over there that did it one more than me right? He's THE REAL SINNER!

Okay, but one of the things I think people don't like about Christianity is they have to face themselves. Because what Jesus is saying is I don't care if he lied more than you. You're BOTH still liars to me. I don't care if we stole more than you. YOU'RE BOTH STILL THIEVES!

So that's why the system is based on if you accept Jesus or not because in a works based system everyone is still going around sinning, but they spend all day pointing out who's a worse sinner than they are.

What they really need is someone to say HEY YOU'RE ALL SINNERS. Okay, but the only one that can do that without being a hypocrite would be someone like Jesus who never sinned. So, we start to see some of the motivation of the writings here.

Then you can face your own pride and realize that just because some other guy is worse than you doesn't mean you're a "good" guy. "I'm not really that bad right?" Won't cut it anymore. It won't cut it with Jesus.

But since it's not a works based system, it's based on accepting your savior. So, you can go to Hell simply by not accepting the savior because see trying to get in on your good works isn't going to cut it with Jesus.

We've all done something wrong and he doesn't care that you lied less or stole less or murdered less. It doesn't matter how many times you've done it. All that matters if you're sorry for it or not.




posted on Aug, 3 2009 @ 10:58 AM
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The question sounds like it comes from hell itself. Without a soul, you're in hell. So give up my soul and go to hell, who gets saved? Any future generations? I imagine a new hell will be created and eventually sealed for eternity again by some poor individual thinking he's doing the right thing.


Originally posted by getreadyalready
If I could sacrifice my soul to ensure paradise for my kids, wife, parents, etc. I would do it without a second thought. The knowledge that they were spending eternity in paradise would shield me from any repercussions of my decision. I could endure hell with the knowledge of my loved ones in paradise!!


Are you sure? What if upon arriving in hell, the Devil himself were to convince you through illusions that your wife in heaven is screwing somebody else who appears just like you, that it was because of this man's actions you went to hell so he could be with her up in heaven. Not even the angels can verify that one since Hell has been sealed forever.

Or if you wouldn't fall for that one, just imagine the thought of being seperated for all of eternity.



posted on Aug, 3 2009 @ 12:02 PM
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reply to post by Dragonfly79
 


Well of course it was hypothetical after all, and you bring up similar questions to mine. How could you ever be SURE that it wasn't a trick? Assuming that chasm was crossed, then I am certain I could endure it. I would certainly be miserable in the "seperation" as you put it, but a lot of peace would come in knowing what a sacrifice you had done for your loved ones, and really what else in matters? I don't believe any type of "torture" could be effective in that case.

As for "another man with my wife" that is a narrow-minded stereotype. I actually enjoy that type of thing, lol! You should read some of my replies in other forums, I get beat up all the time for my open sexual views, so that would not be a very good torture! In a spiritual sense I don't think this scenario would ever come into play. Flesh is carnal and I like to enjoy it while I'm here, but spirits are something entirely different, so I doubt if it would be any concern in a heaven/hell scenario!!



posted on Aug, 3 2009 @ 01:21 PM
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I don't want to show my true colours here, but no. Actually, to be honest, if you're going to hell anyway (which I can bet you I would be if it existed) you might as well have a punt at it. I wouldn't, cause so many people deserve to be eternally punished in the metaphoric fires of hell so I wouldn't go that far, despite believing that I don't deserve to go there.I would just like to remind you that I am NOT a believer in ANY religion really, so this is all for fun.

Ramadwarf on his gutless cowardice



posted on Aug, 3 2009 @ 03:57 PM
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star, flag, and a bump. Absolutely for the right reason. I believe that was your question, simplified? Sure, there are always ways to complicate the issue.



posted on Aug, 3 2009 @ 04:07 PM
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I don't believe in Hell but for arguments sake , yes I would burn for eternity to save mankind.

Edit to add 2nd line

[edit on 3-8-2009 by EyesWideShut]



posted on Aug, 5 2009 @ 02:24 AM
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Originally posted by St Vaast
Your soul isn't yours to sacrifice

can't give away what isn't yours


i respectfully disagree. we are co-creators IMO of our own realities on every plane of existence (and shared realities of those we cross paths with). if my "soul" was not mine, how could that be? in my worldview, it could not happen.

when you speak of "giving, " to me your speaking of giving/donating a material item on the plane most consider "reality." self sacrifice for another ones benefit is something most choose subconsciously because they do not know themselves well enough to even realize a choice was made.

ask anyone of our brave first responders who have made self sacrifices and most (if not all) will tell you something like....i'm no hero, i just reacted due to training. although i'm sure their training will play a HUGH part in timely action, they in fact did make the choice. rather than let someone face death while they stood by, they face it with them and are in fact a "hero" in many ways.

just food for thought.

cheers
AA

[edit on 5-8-2009 by anonamousantichrist]



posted on Aug, 5 2009 @ 02:42 AM
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Originally posted by tinfoilman

Originally posted by anonamousantichrist
if you do not want your thread to turn into a debate about the validity of a idea as intangible as hell i understand.

that said, how can you then say "Also keep in mind that even good, law-abiding people can go to hell too?"

seems like a counterproductive and purposefully confusing contradiction.

i'm just sayin...........


Well I don't know if they'll answer, but my explanation is a hypothesis and nothing more. So, just a theory here is all about how Hell/Heaven works.

Simplest example would be that law-abiding doesn't really mean you're "good" because the Biblical Hell has nothing to do with laws anymore after the Old Testament and has nothing to do with being good or bad. It's all about getting forgiveness from the savior instead.

See a works based system is like how many good deeds you've done compared to how many bad deeds and it's all based on the law. That kind of system can devolve into a holier than thou thing. I'm better than you. He's better than that guy. He's not holy at all!

This is a barrier to loving your fellow man hence a law/works based system is against what Jesus would want because everybody is tallying up their good deeds, but once they get enough good deeds they end up sinning anyway because they have the sin of pride.

And after thinking upon the best way to explain it is to say there are no good and bad people. Just good people who sin and do evil things. Even Jesus says something to the effect of no one is "good" but the father in Heaven.

Okay but some people take that as an insult because they think he's saying they're a bad person, but if we just explain a little, maybe people will see he's just talking about their human nature.

What it's saying is there is no "good" person. There's just someone who's not as bad as someone else. And I don't care if you're murderer or what you can always find someone worse than you. That's just human nature.

So, everyone thinks THEY'RE good because, "I'm not as bad as that guy!" I only lied 10 times! He lied 20! I should get into Heaven! Not him!

Even if you kill someone you start thinking. Well one ain't so bad right? I mean, but somebody that's killed two or three. Now they're REALLY BAD right? They should go to Hell! Not little old me! Until of course the murderer kills someone else and now it's two people and so on.

Okay and the thief thinks, well I'm not a murderer right? I'm not really "evil" right? So, I'm still basically "good" right? Next thing you know you could be stealing, lying, cheating, doing drugs. But at least you're not a "murderer" right? Okay and then the murderers just look to the pedophiles and say well, AT LEAST I DON'T KILL CHILDREN!

So, you're still a "good" guy right? You see this in prison actually. The murderers try to kill the pedophiles. No matter how bad the people are they all hate the pedophiles. Cause you know, it's not the murderers that are the real "bad" people right? So see, someone is always "worse" than you are. So, of course some people think they're a "good" person because someone else is worse.

And of course you ask someone how many times they should be able to lie or steal or murder in a works based system before they can't go to Heaven anymore and guess what? It usually turns out that the number should always be one more than how many times you've done it.

If someone lied three times and I ask, they'll say well a person should have to lie four times before going to hell! But if they've lied five times and I ask again they'll say a person should have to lie SIX times! Only five lies! I'm still GOOD!

But it always starts at 1. Just 1. Because you say, well so if you lie 1 time you should go to Hell? Well, no it was just 1 mistake right? Okay, well how about two or three or sixteen? Where does it stop in a works based system?

But who shouldn't get into Heaven? It's always that other guy over there that did it one more than me right? He's THE REAL SINNER!

Okay, but one of the things I think people don't like about Christianity is they have to face themselves. Because what Jesus is saying is I don't care if he lied more than you. You're BOTH still liars to me. I don't care if we stole more than you. YOU'RE BOTH STILL THIEVES!

So that's why the system is based on if you accept Jesus or not because in a works based system everyone is still going around sinning, but they spend all day pointing out who's a worse sinner than they are.

What they really need is someone to say HEY YOU'RE ALL SINNERS. Okay, but the only one that can do that without being a hypocrite would be someone like Jesus who never sinned. So, we start to see some of the motivation of the writings here.

Then you can face your own pride and realize that just because some other guy is worse than you doesn't mean you're a "good" guy. "I'm not really that bad right?" Won't cut it anymore. It won't cut it with Jesus.

But since it's not a works based system, it's based on accepting your savior. So, you can go to Hell simply by not accepting the savior because see trying to get in on your good works isn't going to cut it with Jesus.

We've all done something wrong and he doesn't care that you lied less or stole less or murdered less. It doesn't matter how many times you've done it. All that matters if you're sorry for it or not.


i see your point of view and i alot of it i agree with 100%. that was exactly the reason i worded it the way i did.

religion has one goal and that goal is control. it's very easy to see once you break down a religion (take your pick) and it's dogma.
the idea of the creative force (god) is pretty constant across the board, only the names change to suit the native ideas and customs. usually the religion imposed on native peoples will use/steal ideas from the native persons belief to make it easier to "transition" them.

simply put, if i do not listen to my mom, dad, government or any other earthly authority, maybe i'll listen to "god." after all what better way to make a human less than what he truly is then to tell him (and make him believe) that his god is ashamed of his actions to the point of eternal separation.

morality is a product of being carnal and is ego based. if good and bad are ego based, then how can one be better than the other?

i think you and i both agree, it cannot!

[edit on 5-8-2009 by anonamousantichrist]



posted on Aug, 5 2009 @ 02:46 AM
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reply to post by ahnggk
 


Dunno. Don't believe in the Biblical Hell or more precisely that anyone but yourself sends you there. There are people who are in hell right now while still living, it's a state of mind.


[edit on 5-8-2009 by Watcher-In-The-Shadows]



posted on Aug, 5 2009 @ 02:55 AM
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Originally posted by Watcher-In-The-Shadows
reply to post by ahnggk
 


Dunno. Don't believe in the Biblical Hell or more precisely that anyone but yourself sends you there. There are people who are in hell right now while still living, it's a state of mind.


[edit on 5-8-2009 by Watcher-In-The-Shadows]


well said!

however, it's acceptable in my worldview that if a individual makes heaven and hell absolute (in the biblical sense), then they will create it and dwell in it until they realize it's up to them to leave it behind.

cheers,
AA

[edit on 5-8-2009 by anonamousantichrist]



posted on Aug, 5 2009 @ 02:57 AM
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reply to post by anonamousantichrist
 


Agreed.



posted on Aug, 5 2009 @ 03:06 AM
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I don't believe in it but assuming it exists, it would for a reason, so i won't sacrifice my soul to seal it, would be like sacrificing my life to close jails, even good people often go to jail.



posted on Aug, 5 2009 @ 03:14 AM
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Why would good, law-abiding people be sent to Hell? Why would anyone but the worst of the worst be sent to this so called "Hell"? Isn't it a little cruel for an all-loving all welcoming god to send his creations to a place where they will suffer the most pain they have ever experienced for the rest of eternity?



posted on Aug, 5 2009 @ 03:22 AM
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reply to post by Deus Ex Machina 42
 


But what's a good person? Everyone I know has told at least one lie before. There is no perfect "good" person.



posted on Aug, 5 2009 @ 03:38 AM
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reply to post by anonamousantichrist
 


Yeah but I think the difference though is I wouldn't say God is ashamed of anyone.

Like in my religion it doesn't say you're a sinner and God hates you for it. Well in the old Testament it might somewhere, but what Jesus said is that we're all sinners but Jesus meant that we're simply not perfect. Where in the Old Testament a sinner is someone that broke the law, but Jesus defined it differently, but it was so similar in certain ways many didn't notice.

He said you should be helping that other person if you can. Not trying to kill them or hate them for their sins when you have your own to worry about.

Also, what I believe that is different than what some other people believe is that it does not say a sinner goes to Hell. It just says people that aren't sorry for their sins go to Hell basically.

Basically the people that would go to Hell are people that have wronged somebody and know they've wronged somebody and either don't care or are in fact happy about the harm they've done to others and did it intentionally.


[edit on 5-8-2009 by tinfoilman]



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