Joe Legal vs. Joe Illegal

reply to post by ZindoDoone

You are all forgetting that there is only one earth like planet that we know about,where do you really think people from different races and background should go,man created borders to satisfy his own needs and we all know that what ever man builds is always destroyed eventually by opposing forces seen and unseen.I am guessing that the native American were just holding the lands for all those who came here illegally in the past and now have right to pass Judgment on his fellow man grow a consciousness i say and start thinking for yourselves.

reply to post by ZindoDoone


I don't know any "illegals" named Joe, maybe Jose, but the point is that your argument is flawed because you are generalizing a whole situation with one example, a very general one at that.

I know a person who is not a citizen of the United Sates of America and they don't do construction. He makes 10 bucks an hour at a crappy job, gets a taxed check every two weeks and has to live with the fact that it was never his decision to come to this country, but he is stuck here now because the life he knows is all here.

He doesn't receive welfare, he doesn't drain the health care system because he is a very healthy person. He just sees how citizens of this country don't know how to take advantage of the fact that they simply have a social security number and can get a simple driver's license. They just waste away while I know he could easily make it big because he is very intelligent and motivated. He could do anybody's job, and that is anybody, trust me.

Like him there are a lot of examples both good and bad. But I think it is disingenuous of you to drum up such an emotionally charged argument like you have done. This issue is not black and white you know....

reply to post by Oatmeal


Thanks Oatmeal! That is so true.

From any board discussing this issue, it is automatically assumed that anyone who is against 'illegal' immigration are racists, have no compassion or whatever. That is simply not true. We are a melting pot of different races. We are not discussing legal immigration, only that which is 'illegal'. We have laws for a reason. With open borders we have no idea who we are letting in.

We have people who are on long waiting lists for cheap housing because there simply arn't enough to provide for everyone. More and more we are seeing homeless LEGAL citizens who are homeless because shelters are filled to capacity. Some of these people never make it through the winter and that breaks my heart. Anyone living in poverty has my sympathy legal or not, but if we can't help our own, how we can help the world?

If there aren't enough jobs for our citizens, how is it right to put an 'illegal' first for emplyment? Our tax dollars help the illegals when we don't have the same benefits as they do. Do the pro illegals think about that? It would be a beautiful world in deed if countries took care of their people instead of holding on to power and greed, but unfortunately that isn't the way it is. Obviously, no one has the right answer on how to solve this or it would have been solved by now. There are no easy answers where both sides would be happy.

Originally posted by daddyroo45


No disrespect intended,however have you given thought to the thousands and thousands of legal immigrants that took the time and effort to EARN citizenship? Those that have become model citizens,and actually assimilated into society?

No disrespect taken. I understand your point of view and honestly I would agree that it would be a slap in the face to legal immigrants to grant the illegals citizenship just for being here. My family emigrated here legally from Europe, half many years ago and half during the 30's to escape the Nazis. They worked hard, learned English and struggled to set up a good life for themselves.

However, the illegal immigrants are already here. We set up the law that says we can't kick them out once they get here, and many of them have raised families here (their children being legal, the parents not). We can't break up those families, just as we can't violate our own laws to deport massive groups of individuals. It would be a modern trail of tears.

If we gave illegal immigrants legal status, employers would no longer be able to pay them illegal wages under the table. Employers, now facing a leveled playing field, would be more inclined to hire naturalized citizens, who are fluent in English, and usually better educated. Illegal immigrants (who are now legal) would find it much harder to obtain work, and faced with taxes like any other citizen, would be more inclined to return to their countries of origin. If they decide to stay, they would need to work harder to learn American Customs and English, because no employer is going to hire someone with a language barrier for the same price they can hire a natural citizen.

Landscapers, Golf course owners, construction workers, factory owners and Walmart might not like it, but they would have to pay more on average to the American workers, which would help to revitalize the economy. The increased tax revenue from all of the newly legal immigrants could also be used to enforce the borders further.

I'm not saying that illegal immigration is a justifiable act, it is illegal after all. However, I'm trying to offer a pragmatic solution that would essentially not only be best for the illegals here, but for every American citizen.

reply to post by GTORick


I work in the medical field and see this often. When R we going to do something about the boarder?

Originally posted by yyyyyyyyyy
and the police could spend resources tracking down REAL criminals.

Illegal immigrants ARE criminals.

And they're thieves.

And they dilute our culture.

And they're a drain on our resources.

And regarding human rights, they've got those in Mexico, too...send them back so they can enjoy their own country's culture and rights.

It's all payback for when we came into this land and stole it from the Indians by tricking them. Sure we did good here by screwing the Indians over, but you don't glorify the fortune the thief made from investing money he robbed from people even though he gives some to charity right?

I doubt anyone will even try replying to this because it's too real for some of you.

Originally posted by souls
reply to post by ZindoDoone

 

I don't know any "illegals" named Joe, maybe Jose, but the point is that your argument is flawed because you are generalizing a whole situation with one example, a very general one at that.

I know a person who is not a citizen of the United Sates of America and they don't do construction. He makes 10 bucks an hour at a crappy job, gets a taxed check every two weeks and has to live with the fact that it was never his decision to come to this country, but he is stuck here now because the life he knows is all here.

He doesn't receive welfare, he doesn't drain the health care system because he is a very healthy person. He just sees how citizens of this country don't know how to take advantage of the fact that they simply have a social security number and can get a simple driver's license. They just waste away while I know he could easily make it big because he is very intelligent and motivated. He could do anybody's job, and that is anybody, trust me.

Like him there are a lot of examples both good and bad. But I think it is disingenuous of you to drum up such an emotionally charged argument like you have done. This issue is not black and white you know....

Myself see your idea of Jose flawed.
1 tax paying jose vs 600 that don't isnt very rational man.

His generalization of it is based on one side of the construction industry.

Your's is based one lone jose.

So how is his flawed and you one instance is how it is and must be with all illegal's?

I happen to live in a tobacco growing state.
Shall i take picture's of all the illegals crammed up in trailer's for free to do farm work?
Then should i take a picture of them same illegal's..buying food with a foodstamp debit card?
And getting free medical care i pay for?

Why i see my next door neighbor who lost her job's..... kid start to go hungry because she can't find work?

common man illegal aliens stealing job's screws us all...
face up to it.

My very humble opinions....

Zindo I think your Joe Illegal and Joe Legal statements are a bit stretched out.  Like someone else pointed out ILLEGALS may not be making $15 in construction.  The only way I see an Illegal making that amount per hour is if he is very skilled in a construction trade(ex. Carpentry, Drywall, Finishers...etc). 

   I think there is some truth to your post. However, a small truth can be the biggest lie.  What you stated sounds like it's coming from an emotional perspective.  I did not sense any "research" coming from your "facts."  One thing I would like to point out is I do not favor illegal immigration.  I do not support breaking the law.  I do see the inconvenience that the illegals are inflicting in some places. 

I do have a hard time understanding why many CITIZENS are complaning about how illegals are taking "their" jobs.  Is there a reason why a US citizen should be flipping burgers or taking your order at a drive through?  Working at a car wash or cleaning toilets in the local mall?? You were born here, went to school..have the opportunity to attend a community college if you cant afford one of your choice.  Not to mention the military.  I've never heard lawyers, doctors, nurses, etc complaining about the illegals taking their jobs. 

The issue of illegals using gov't services... I cant relate.  I dont know how sure some of you can be that illegals can obtain all this "pay for rent, food stamps, free this.. free that.. when they dont have an ID or a SS.  Here in the DC area illegals get nothing.  No WIC no food stamps.. nothing!  If they can do it in your state then its your state leaders to blame.  I know CITIZENS who dont work and have never even thought of working because the gov't gives them eveything... does that make it right?

One other thing...because an "illegal" drives nice cars and wears nice clothes and lives in a nice house...seriously...is he really illegal?? Dont we need a SS to buy a house and a car?  What is your definition of nice?  If a hispanic person pulls up in a mercedes 500 next to your mazda 6 at a red light, what comes to mind??  It seems to some of you hispanics and poor always go hand in hand.

I think giving them a SS and having them pay taxes is the way to go.  Throw in a 10-15k dollar fine for coming in here illegally and mandatory military service.  First criminal offense they are found guilty of and auto deportation.  That could be a slap in the face to those that waited in line...but that process is tainted.  I know guys that make bets on who will be the one with the most denials at the end of the day in Mexican, El Salvadorian, Guatemalan etc embassies.  These are guys that served with me in the Corps, I have no reason to lie.  The borders need to be SECURED and the immigration process fixed.I wonder if we gave all the "illegals" SS cards how long till the doctors and lawyers start bitching about shortage of jobs...

reply to post by ZindoDoone


"Lock the borders and deport those that are here and let them work their way back into the system like the legal system of immigration allows."


The problem with that is that the legal system of immigration is BS.
You know the similarity between Joe Legal and Joe Illegal? They're both human beings. You know the difference? Joe Illegal lives a much crappier life than Joe Legal. I don't have a problem people breaking into our country to survive as long as they really need to.

Any problems that are building up in America right now are not illegal immigrants faults, but our own. Sure, illegal immigration might of had a small part to do with it, but its most of our problems stem from putting people who don't care about the people into office.

Originally posted by arcnaver

Originally posted by The Killah29
Why work in a system the eliete made? It will just screw you over. Joe Illegal has the good idea.

By the way, why do we need to have borders anyway?

Very good question! Can I come to your house and eat all your food stores tonight?

Good point.
Its a bit like asking the question, why do houses have front doors?
Answer, so only those you INVITE can come in, not every man and his dog.

[qute]Originally posted by Redneck from Hell
It's all payback for when we came into this land and stole it from the Indians by tricking them.

We? Hmm, lets see, what have I done with my life.... I played a lot of games as a kid, did band and sports in highschool, worked tons of jobs, went to college, drank mind blowing amounts of booze partying in an effort to rid myself of my cursed liver... hmm. You know, I honestly don't remember the whole tricking Indians to still their land thing. But shame on you for apparently doing it.

Sarcasm aside, I see your point, but come on. You gettin all religious here or something? Karma decided to punish the ancestors of those who raped the Indians land and almost wiped them out by hundreds of years later having illegal immigrants come and be a burden on their economy. Hahahahah! Why wouldn't karma hurt those directly responsible? Or perhaps an even better question, if karma is involved, do you really think the punishment of illegals being here fits the crime?

Oh and about the whole "we" doing this thing, I'm part Blackfoot Indian, so what part of me is getting what I deserve and what part of me is finally getting retribution? Just goes to show the absurdity of justifying current situations by events that occurred centuries ago.

[edit on 22-6-2009 by Grambler]

reply to post by TheAmused


I don't think you understood my post. Try reading it again. It is hard to actually respond to you when you yourself don't even know what you are saying.

reply to post by ZindoDoone

great post i no i live in calif and looking for work suck i use to live in a white part of the city now go to most of the business were i live all Mexican owned or have only Mexican working for them im so tired of this crap i dont have a problem of them wanting to better them self as long as i dont have to pay for it or get over looked for a job because im white

reply to post by Oatmeal

everyone one thinks that they are cheaper or i mean work for cheaper wages that is bs they want the good money to and with that being said and times getting harder most people who are from here just want to work but are over looked because employers think they want to much money without even asking if we would work the same wages that they are paying the mexicans they would be surprised if they stop thinking that way and people from here would have jobs again.if you took all the people that are not here legal and sent them back that would be alot of jobs for the people who are here legal being from here and being white is a big disadvantage now days

reply to post by heyo


Hi Heyo, I am not an expert but here goes, the law of supply and the law of demand, if America was to be 'full' of people, then people would leave. But there are places in the world like Delhi and Hong Kong with a huge population per square mile, so I don't think the US is full yet.

Also, I understand Texas is pretty screwed up right now, and people are blaming immigrants. Perhaps other factors should be considered, a fiat money scheme, terrible politicians, a failing education system, stupid laws, a mass media that is faulty, justice for the rich etc.

Things that are precious should be treated casually, the US looks to protect itself at all cost and so it is lost. The people are not educated and thus easy to rule, the rulers are not wise and think only of themselves. So be willing to lose and you can win, instill wisdom in those with power and they will rule justly.

Power and Equality

Any further questioners should look to the posts of drwizardphd, these posts seem to sum up a lot of my views.



[edit on 22-6-2009 by yyyyyyyyyy]

As a former illegal alien I can assure you that we were not eligible for any benefits such as Food Stamps, WIC, Section 8, ect;

Even though I have two American citizen brothers my parents would never have dreamed of applying for any types of benefits for them as it would have highlighted my parents and mine lack of legal status.

As a child the emergency room was our doctor's office. I remember it well. Sitting for hours to get a broken arm looked after, being afraid my broken arm might get my parents in trouble.

I remember getting my first job. Lots of illegals worked there, but I was just assumed not be one, afterall I looked white and spoke perfect english.

By the way - the path to entering the country legally is all but impossible for someone who isn't wealthy. Illegal Jose left Mexico for a better life ( read: better financial life) - His pesos aren't enough to apply for a visa, greencard ect;

So I got caught about 5 years ago - the place I'd been working for ten years got fined, I lost my apartment, car - It was pretty darn harsh. My lawyer said he could keep me in the country for 25K - but it would take years and I wouldn't be able to work in the mean time. Also INS was pretty pissed that I wouldn't rat out the rest of my family. So in the end I decided to go back to a country I'd left as an infant.

But hey I'm just a scum bag criminal who deserved everything I got, right?

reply to post by Merigold


Merigold, i don';t know where it is you live but illegals here in the NE are eligible for all benefits Natural Born Citizens are. Our bureaucrats are not allowed to even ask if they are illegal. Those here who are saying that they don't are evidently not aware of the real problems or ignore it because they have a different agenda. Fact is everything in the OP is true and in differing areas the dollar amount might be tweeked but the principles that are in play are correct. In case you didn't know, Federal law states that NO PERSON can be denied medical care in any facility that gets even ONE DOLLAR of federal money. Hospitals are going bankrupt and closing at an alarming rate because this law is not funded but still must be adhered to. You can feel all warm and fuzzy all you want about this being one world or that we should be compassionate but the fact remains these illegals are a serious drain on the very low resources we have in this country right now!

Zindo

[edit on 6/22/2009 by biggin]

Originally posted by Praetorian Guard
Illegal immigrants ARE criminals.

And they're thieves.

And they dilute our culture.

And they're a drain on our resources.

And regarding human rights, they've got those in Mexico, too...send them back so they can enjoy their own country's culture and rights.

It's when I read comments like that that I take GREAT delight to see America crashing and burning around ya'll. You seem to forget that those that started the US were illegal immigrants .. CRIMINALS if you prefer .. themselves.

Man, I laugh my ass off every time I see another hoity toity American BIGOT loose their job and end up as poor as those poor Mexicans that you are so afraid of.

And BTW, the US has more of her citizens, her CRIMINALS, locked up in prison than any other nation, so don't talk "who's the criminal dirtball" without checking your own stink first, ha.

Crash and burn, crash and burn baby ... I want to see Americans having to sneak into Mexico to escape their corrupt government and the poverty that will be overtaking your nation built upon invaded and stolen lands. This country has so much bad karma coming out her butt because of attitudes like yours. Man, I'd pay to see Mexicans tossing Americans back where they belong one day soon.

Now excuse me, I'm going to go help my friends crash your cheating funny money economy, HAR!!!