America needs to start taxing Churches, synagogues, Temples and Mosques , NOW!

Originally posted by Raist

Originally posted by gdeed


The constitution protects these religious institution so that needs to be changed.

Sorry you lost me there. The Constitution needs to be changed? I would say you are wrong. Our Constitution has stood the test of time for longer than any of us have lived and you want to change it? The only thing that needs to be changed is the politicians we have in D.C. now.

I wasn't seriouse, I don't want anyone to mess with the constitution either. But the constitution has little affect because it is the mood of the people that creates what laws we will live under. Freedom of speach today is nothing like it was a few years ago. You can speak your mind unless it ofends someone, and there is always some standing by waiting to be offended so that they can use their constitutional right to sue you.

As for the money that goes into churches well let me explain the money going into my church.

The first small portion goes of course to pay the salary of my Pastor who does not really make that much but it is a rather small church. After that a large amount goes to pay the expenses of the church. Then there is a little that goes to ministries we support and then what is left goes into savings and is used for things that the church might want to do (youth outings and such).

Sure, but much money going into relligiuse coffers ends up in the middle east to keep the fires between Israel and Islam going, which altimitly spills over and affects every country on this planet, but mostly america. I say we tax some of that blood money for all the trouble it has caused the world.

The mosque being built in New York will be contravercial and that is a good thing for islam. Anything that is in the news has exposure and people talk about it for years. Like here on ats. After 911 islam benifitted big time and added many new recruits to its cause because of all the news. Way to go islam, but why not share some of the profits and pay your fair share of the tax burdon in New York City? When the tables eventually turn and they will, guess who will be collecting taxes from the infidels?

reply to post by gdeed


I will begin by stating that I have only partially read the opening
post on this thread.
My church does not pay taxes,my church does use utilities...
My church does pay the utilities every month out of the tithes
and offerings of the members.The only money my church
sends overseas is to support missionaries in foreign countries.

Remember,other nationalities can come to the U.S. and live
off of our services(welfare,foodstamps)...Americans can not live
off of the services of a foreign country.

Originally posted by mamabeth
reply to post by gdeed

 

I will begin by stating that I have only partially read the opening
post on this thread.
My church does not pay taxes,my church does use utilities...
My church does pay the utilities every month out of the tithes
and offerings of the members.The only money my church
sends overseas is to support missionaries in foreign countries.

Remember,other nationalities can come to the U.S. and live
off of our services(welfare,foodstamps)...Americans can not live
off of the services of a foreign country.

If I didn't have to pay taxes I too would have the luxurey to help others and give more to charities of my chosing. But the government doesn't care about that, they still expect me to pay taxes, property taxes and a multitude of other taxes. Naturly we need to pay some taxes or the country would calapse. Mosques and chruches sit on millions of acers of land that is not taxed and every year they take up more and more land for these tax loopholes and save billions of dollars. I too could do great things if I was allowed to keep more of my money.

Originally posted by gdeed

I think we all know that religion is an important part of politics because voters who belong to a religouse institution vote their beliefs. Cristianity is a power behind abortion and gay issues. Isreal would be doomed without Judaism in america. Islam is a growing power in politics and eventually will out do the others concerning the direction of political expenency. When we talk about religion in america everyone assumes we are talking about christians, which is absurd. Islam is the new silent majority but silent not for long.

[edit on 4-5-2010 by gdeed]
Yes, but the wall is this: A minister can say Abortion is murder, homosexuality is wrong, but he is forbidden from saying, Vote for this law or that law, cause then he is using his influence to guide the private votes of the body politic.
And yes Islam is the new silent majority, but the point being as long as there is that wall of seperation, then the chances of laws that are clear cut based on religion go down. The moment that a religious organization is taxed, is the day that you see a new witch hunt begin, and laws that out law different groups or legalize discrimination start. I would say that at first there would be stalemates, until the idea of where groups would move from one part of the country to the other to form political coalitions and majorities to get the laws based on religion passed and enacted. Could you live there Sharia law was the rule of the state, or where the pope is calling the shots, or a rabbi, or a christian minister, like say Rev. Phelps held real political power?

Taxes are not the answer to every problem that mankind encounters. I don't agree with taxing charitable donations, or voluntary gifts to religious institutions.

However, I'm not adverse to them paying income tax on any revenue they may have from things like investments, or realized capital gains on property. Back in the Middle Ages they made a killing by charging to see relics and by selling indulgences to people rich and poor. The Roman Catholic Church really took advantage of these people and should be charged back taxes for that alone.

reply to post by gdeed


I think you should be focusing your anger over taxes
elsewhere.I remember, that people new to the country,
don't pay taxes on what they earn.They get to take home
all their pay.
I don't know if this is still true or not.I would stop harping
on churches and look somewhere else.Churches are not the
only ones that are tax exempt.Just the only ones you want
to complain about.

Originally posted by sdcigarpig
Yes, but the wall is this: A minister can say Abortion is murder, homosexuality is wrong, but he is forbidden from saying, Vote for this law or that law, cause then he is using his influence to guide the private votes of the body politic.

Forbidden by law, but who in the congragation or in the mosque is going to turn in their beloved religious teachers. I think we all know politics is rampant in the mosques and churches.

And yes Islam is the new silent majority, but the point being as long as there is that wall of seperation, then the chances of laws that are clear cut based on religion go down. The moment that a religious organization is taxed, is the day that you see a new witch hunt begin, and laws that out law different groups or legalize discrimination start. I would say that at first there would be stalemates, until the idea of where groups would move from one part of the country to the other to form political coalitions and majorities to get the laws based on religion passed and enacted. Could you live there Sharia law was the rule of the state, or where the pope is calling the shots, or a rabbi, or a christian minister, like say Rev. Phelps held real political power?

Right now religious institutions are cash cows. And much of that cash is funnled to other countries that feed political worldwide agendas, that often come back and bite us.

I believe that taxing these extablisment would tame them and their agenda a bit.

Originally posted by gdeed
Right now religious institutions are cash cows. And much of that cash is funnled to other countries that feed political worldwide agendas,

Just wondering, how do you know where the cash goes and what it's used for?

Let's see the evidence, if you have any.

Originally posted by TheComte
Taxes are not the answer to every problem that mankind encounters. I don't agree with taxing charitable donations, or voluntary gifts to religious institutions.

taxes are a problem for everyone, but everyone has to pay taxes except those that know where the loopholes are, like religouse institutions.

However, I'm not adverse to them paying income tax on any revenue they may have from things like investments, or realized capital gains on property. Back in the Middle Ages they made a killing by charging to see relics and by selling indulgences to people rich and poor. The Roman Catholic Church really took advantage of these people and should be charged back taxes for that alone.

The chruches, mosques and temples all have plenty of dirty loundry in their past and present. If corporations did half of what these religiouse institutions have done and are doing, they would be inprisioned.

Originally posted by mamabeth
I think you should be focusing your anger over taxes
elsewhere.I remember, that people new to the country,
don't pay taxes on what they earn.They get to take home
all their pay.
I don't know if this is still true or not.I would stop harping
on churches and look somewhere else.Churches are not the
only ones that are tax exempt.Just the only ones you want
to complain about.

Churches, mosques and temples are cash cows because they have huge tax loop holes. With all that money they can influence politicians and they do. That is not democracy, it is theocracy.

Originally posted by TheComte

Originally posted by gdeed
Right now religious institutions are cash cows. And much of that cash is funnled to other countries that feed political worldwide agendas,

Just wondering, how do you know where the cash goes and what it's used for?

Let's see the evidence, if you have any.

Let's see, the vatican and israel, and do you trully believe that the only money we send to the middle east islamic oil countries is money for oil?

Originally posted by gdeed
Let's see, the vatican and israel, and do you trully believe that the only money we send to the middle east islamic oil countries is money for oil?

I'll take that to mean you have no evidence.

reply to post by gdeed


So you are still in favore of tearing down that wall and taxing the religious institutions? And what will you do when that happens and they turn their eye towards you? What will you do, when they go after you legally for not attending their church and donating to them, or making laws that restrict what you can and can not do even in the privacy of your own home? Or look at you and state that just cause you are one thing, it is a violation of their tenants of faith and there for you are to have your civil rights stripped because of it? And you are stuck cause they are in the majority and have the voters to back them? As long as they are not taxed, then the religious institutions are kept somewhat in check on the political side, and can not push their agendas out in the open, beyond just stating what they believe is right or wrong. The momement you change that, then the very protections that not only they enjoy but you as well, are gone and it becomes a very bad mess. Want some examples of what happens when a religious organization gets involved in politics? Take a look at Colorado's Admendment 2, where a religious organization used their influence to win a law, though it was struck down by the supreme court of the US, but it got through and made it legal to remove the civil rights of the gay and lesibian population, and it was proved in court that they did such, to the point where the court pointed out if they did such again, they would not only loose their tax exempt status, but also have to pay back taxes. Take a look at the last election in California on gay marriage, the churches who were involved, are right now in court having to not only defend their actions but are also having it considered on losing their tax exempt status for getting involved in the political arena. Take away the tax exempt status of the church and you open it up for them to get involved in politics and there is nothing anyone can do, as the wall would be torn down, and the religious organizations can get away with it.
And before you mention about the politicians on getting in bed with such, consider they are doing it to garner a voting block, using such for political gains. Bush Jr, did that.

[edit on 8-5-2010 by sdcigarpig]

Originally posted by sdcigarpig
So you are still in favore of tearing down that wall and taxing the religious institutions? And what will you do when that happens and they turn their eye towards you? What will you do, when they go after you legally for not attending their church and donating to them, or making laws that restrict what you can and can not do even in the privacy of your own home? Or look at you and state that just cause you are one thing, it is a violation of their tenants of faith and there for you are to have your civil rights stripped because of it? And you are stuck cause they are in the majority and have the voters to back them? As long as they are not taxed, then the religious institutions are kept somewhat in check on the political side, and can not push their agendas out in the open, beyond just stating what they believe is right or wrong. The momement you change that, then the very protections that not only they enjoy but you as well, are gone and it becomes a very bad mess. Want some examples of what happens when a religious organization gets involved in politics? Take a look at Colorado's Admendment 2, where a religious organization used their influence to win a law, though it was struck down by the supreme court of the US, but it got through and made it legal to remove the civil rights of the gay and lesibian population, and it was proved in court that they did such, to the point where the court pointed out if they did such again, they would not only loose their tax exempt status, but also have to pay back taxes. Take a look at the last election in California on gay marriage, the churches who were involved, are right now in court having to not only defend their actions but are also having it considered on losing their tax exempt status for getting involved in the political arena. Take away the tax exempt status of the church and you open it up for them to get involved in politics and there is nothing anyone can do, as the wall would be torn down, and the religious organizations can get away with it.
And before you mention about the politicians on getting in bed with such, consider they are doing it to garner a voting block, using such for political gains. Bush Jr, did that.

[edit on 8-5-2010 by sdcigarpig]

You make a good point but there is no way that religious institutions and the millions of followers are not influencing polotics every day, they just don't have to say they are doing it for religious reasons. There is no seperation of church, musque and state. Just because our constitution says there will be, don't make it so. Look at gun laws and free speach, they are protected in the constitution but they don't mean a thing. Walk down the street with a loaded gun or speak your mind and if it's not politically correct, you will end up sued or in jail or both.

reply to post by gdeed


Glad to see you really do not want to change the Constitution, that part bothered me.


I cannot speak for other churches but I know none of our money goes to the M.E. Part goes to missionaries in South America but the majority goes to missionaries in China and to buy bibles for those in China. Not sure how familiar you are with China and Christians but they really do not mix well. Great care has to be taken there.

As for our church it is relatively small generally less than 75 people on any given Sunday with up to 100. I remember this church starting out with less than 20 people. I honestly hope our church never grows to be a large one. I like knowing the people of my church, I like having them as a family. I have driven by a church that had some guy directing traffic and parking spots. A church that large cannot offer the family service I think a church should offer (that is my personal opinion though). Not saying I would not want my church to grow, I just don’t want it to be a mega church.

Raist

reply to post by gdeed

Ah but here in the United States of America, we still do have the freedom of speech and the right to own and carry weapons. Though some states and areas would fight and try to ban such, but every time it goes before the Supreme court, it is shot down.
People still have the right, as long as it does not cause violence or injury, still have the right to freedom of Speech, and no matter how distateful it is, out in public, down on the street corner, you can say anything you so choose. White Supremist, the KKK, Rev. Phelps can all go out and spew venom to the general population. Most places you can own a fire arm in your private home and have the ammunition for such, with in reason, and be safe with in the constraints of the law. Women, still have the right to an abortion and Evolution is still taught in the schools. If we started to tax the churches, then the consequences would be devestating to the general population at large. Oh it may seem a good idea, and then when the churchs start to rally, have you considered what the outcome would be? How about a loss of privacy? Consider, they would use the excuse of religious morals to impeede in your privacy and especially between you and the Doctor. (Roe V. Wade ensured that for women, as it was a case of the right to privacy for a woman and her doctor.) And what about education, could you handle being told your child has to attend religious indoctornation or certain subjects forbidden, as they would contridicts what is written in some holy book, could you handle that? And then there is the freedom of speech, as then speaking out against religion would have serious consequences and then forbidden.
No do not tax the churches, keep the wall and door up and shut. Do not tear it down, as it may seem like a good idea now, but in the long run, it can have diseasterous consequences. Consider the supreme law of the land is the Constitution, and it takes a 2/3's vote to add an admentment. Just think of what would happen if all of the churches you just taxed got political power and changed the law of the land. Could we handle that?

Originally posted by Raist
reply to post by gdeed

 

Glad to see you really do not want to change the Constitution, that part bothered me.


I cannot speak for other churches but I know none of our money goes to the M.E. Part goes to missionaries in South America but the majority goes to missionaries in China and to buy bibles for those in China. Not sure how familiar you are with China and Christians but they really do not mix well. Great care has to be taken there.

As for our church it is relatively small generally less than 75 people on any given Sunday with up to 100. I remember this church starting out with less than 20 people. I honestly hope our church never grows to be a large one. I like knowing the people of my church, I like having them as a family. I have driven by a church that had some guy directing traffic and parking spots. A church that large cannot offer the family service I think a church should offer (that is my personal opinion though). Not saying I would not want my church to grow, I just don’t want it to be a mega church.

Raist

I like your signature but I wonder how many people realize Einstein was talking about the nazis when they were not considered a threat by most of the world? Einstein was like John the baptist, crying out in the wildernes but no one heard him as no one heard Einstein.

Originally posted by sdcigarpig
reply to post by gdeed

 

Ah but here in the United States of America, we still do have the freedom of speech and the right to own and carry weapons. Though some states and areas would fight and try to ban such, but every time it goes before the Supreme court, it is shot down.
People still have the right, as long as it does not cause violence or injury, still have the right to freedom of Speech, and no matter how distateful it is, out in public, down on the street corner, you can say anything you so choose. White Supremist, the KKK, Rev. Phelps can all go out and spew venom to the general population. Most places you can own a fire arm in your private home and have the ammunition for such, with in reason, and be safe with in the constraints of the law. Women, still have the right to an abortion and Evolution is still taught in the schools. If we started to tax the churches, then the consequences would be devestating to the general population at large. Oh it may seem a good idea, and then when the churchs start to rally, have you considered what the outcome would be? How about a loss of privacy? Consider, they would use the excuse of religious morals to impeede in your privacy and especially between you and the Doctor. (Roe V. Wade ensured that for women, as it was a case of the right to privacy for a woman and her doctor.) And what about education, could you handle being told your child has to attend religious indoctornation or certain subjects forbidden, as they would contridicts what is written in some holy book, could you handle that? And then there is the freedom of speech, as then speaking out against religion would have serious consequences and then forbidden.
No do not tax the churches, keep the wall and door up and shut. Do not tear it down, as it may seem like a good idea now, but in the long run, it can have diseasterous consequences. Consider the supreme law of the land is the Constitution, and it takes a 2/3's vote to add an admentment. Just think of what would happen if all of the churches you just taxed got political power and changed the law of the land. Could we handle that?

Taxing churches and mosques will not give them any more power or rights than they already have. American citizens and corprotations have all the rights and protections in the constitution as long as they pay their taxes. That would be the same with religious institutions even if they start paying their fair share of the tax burdon impose on the rest of americans.

Originally posted by heyo
I thought the churches got money from donations.
are you saying we should tax donations, or do churches not pay property tax or something like that?

When your dad dies and he donates to you through inheritance you will pay taxes on that.