Originally posted by greeneyedleo
Not all money going into churches goes overseas.

That's true, but huge amounts do.

My father is a retired pastor. He was a pastor of a small (not a mega church) for many many years. He worked 24/7 doing the job - trust me, he really did. The money the church received went to his salary - which was not much at all and the running of the church (electricity, water, etc)and various church functions. The church catered to the community a lot and helped run a "kitchen" for the poor. And I could go on with the amount of things done - that require money.

I don't think religious people are all out to get us, in fact many churches are helpful to their communities and members. But they can still pay taxes, the rest of us do.

None of the money taken in went to any other organizations (IE The Vatican). It was all funnled back into the church in order for it to function. Not all churchs are rich and nor do all pastor's families live in wealth. My father made about 5 times the amount of money being a private business owner than he did as a pastor.

So before people start slamming all churches - maybe you should pick on individual ones. Because not all churches are crooked. But I agree that many many are - sadly.

I believe that the good and bad churches should pay taxes. Perhaps we can call it a sin tax.

With that said, I really am not sure if churches should be taxed or not. We tax churches, we might as well tax charities too - since many many churces function like charities.

Property taxes are burdens to everyone, home owners and businesses alike. Thousands of people and business owners lose their properties to city and county tax collectors every year. Few people seem to care about that.

If thousands of now exempt religious properties were added to the tax rolls perhaps tax sales on the court house steps would decrease and fewer people would be tossed out into the streets.

Taxes suck, but if we insist on taxing some properties then we should be fair and tax all properties.

I'm torn on this issue.

On the one hand, I think it's totally bogus that religions get a pass on taxes, because I view them as nothing more than money-making machines, aka businesses. They provide a 'service' (brainwashing, 'salvation', etc) for a fee. Granted the fee is generally donated and at the discretion of the customer, but there is a basis through 'encouraged' donations.

On the other hand, you have to start messing with the Constitution in order to legalize taxation on religious institutions. I'm not too keen on that idea, since that would open the door far enough for other Constitutional changes to start taking place; other changes that could lead down roads that none of us really want to go.

It is truly, IMO, a double-edged sword.

Edit for grammar

[edit on 6/21/2009 by billybobh3]

I don't mind paying the tax. I didn't ask to be a "freeloader", but I have to ask. Since you wish to call me a "freeloader". Well, let me get this straight. You don't like me, but you sure don't mind taking my money do you?

If you don't like me, should you like my money too? Is that how we roll now? We do business with people we don't even like just so we can get the green? If it says U.S. Dollar on it you just can't say no can you?

Probably wouldn't step inside a church even if I begged you, but if there was a dollar laying on the ground in there that you thought you could take, it'd probably take the swat team to keep you at bay. What do you worship again?

Or am I judging you? Oh I'm sorry, that's how us freeloaders roll you know. Because, I don't pay any income tax. I don't pay any road taxes or car taxes or sales taxes or state taxes or federal taxes. Oh of course not. Don't you know? Once you join a church the federal government gives you a little sticker so you don't have to pay any of those taxes anymore. You really should get one. Yeah, we don't pay any tax AT ALL!

Duh, we pay taxes just like everyone else does. We just don't pay on what we donate if we claim it, but it doesn't matter who you donate too. You can get a tax deduction by donating to your favorite charity as well. And guess what? It doesn't have to be a religious charity. And it also doesn't have to be a religious charity to qualify as a non-profit and tax exempt status. Should we tax all charities? Why just religious ones?

Jokes on you. In these hard times churches are going broke just like everybody else. There's no tax money in there for you. It's a barren wasteland of behind and unpaid bills in most churches just like every place else. Except maybe your favorite mega church.

Mine, mine doesn't even have any actual employees anymore. We can't pay them. It's all volunteer and about to be shutdown and abandoned anyway because there's no money. Over 90 percent of the congregation is laid off right now. So, yeah, open up our lock box and smell the dust! lol. Why don't you try it on ash Wednesday and let me get a picture!


[edit on 22-6-2009 by tinfoilman]

Originally posted by gdeed

Originally posted by greeneyedleo
Not all money going into churches goes overseas.

I don't think religious people are all out to get us, in fact many churches are helpful to their communities and members. But they can still pay taxes, the rest of us do.

You seriously think I don't pay any taxes? You seriously think when I show up to church they give me a sticker that says I'm exempt from all taxes? You really think that's how it works? Sorry, I have to pay the same taxes as every other person. All the same. I file a return every year and I usually owe. You probably get earned income though. That earned income, that would be my money in your pocket because I actually pay in. You're welcome though. Anything I can do.

I would like to know where I can get one of these stickers though.

[edit on 22-6-2009 by tinfoilman]

Originally posted by billybobh3
I'm torn on this issue.

On the one hand, I think it's totally bogus that religions get a pass on taxes, because I view them as nothing more than money-making machines, aka businesses. They provide a 'service' (brainwashing, 'salvation', etc) for a fee. Granted the fee is generally donated and at the discretion of the customer, but there is a basis through 'encouraged' donations.

On the other hand, you have to start messing with the Constitution in order to legalize taxation on religious institutions. I'm not too keen on that idea, since that would open the door far enough for other Constitutional changes to start taking place; other changes that could lead down roads that none of us really want to go.

It is truly, IMO, a double-edged sword.

Edit for grammar

[edit on 6/21/2009 by billybobh3]

They could do a constitutional amendment; they have done many of those already without tampering with the rest of the constitution.

Originally posted by tinfoilman

Mine, mine doesn't even have any actual employees anymore. We can't pay them. It's all volunteer and about to be shutdown and abandoned anyway because there's no money. Over 90 percent of the congregation is laid off right now. So, yeah, open up our lock box and smell the dust! lol. Why don't you try it on ash Wednesday and let me get a picture!

As in any business there are always some that go out of business.

Throughout the US there are mega Churches, Synagogues, Temples for every tom dick and harry that calls themselves a religious enterprises, and Mosques galore.

In fact one of the few parts of the economy that is growing in these hard economic times are religious institutions, many of them taking advantage of the real estate bust and buying up property like no ones business.

The major landholders in American are Religious institutions and their numbers are growing fast.

Anyone can create a religious institution here in American and save a fortune in taxes. And many people do, taking advantage of the American tax payer who has to carry that ever increasing tax burden.

ALL the money churches and charities receive is ALREADY TAXED. It is taxed HEAVILY by the govt before said generous person when they EARNED it and then decided to make a sacrifice and help out those less fortunate.

This thread is quite obviously full of people who do NO charitable giving whatsoever and probably believe the govt should be responsible for taking care of those in need instead of actually donating their own time and effort to help their fellow man.

I realize some will come back and say "not true I give" blah blah but I guess that's the beauty of the anonymous Internet.

Originally posted by jjkenobi
ALL the money churches and charities receive is ALREADY TAXED. It is taxed HEAVILY by the govt before said generous person when they EARNED it and then decided to make a sacrifice and help out those less fortunate.

We buy goods and "services" from a store, the money we use has already been taxed. The storeowner has to report that money and pay taxes on it.

Churches provide a service as a previous poster mentioned for their money.

This thread is quite obviously full of people who do NO charitable giving whatsoever and probably believe the govt should be responsible for taking care of those in need instead of actually donating their own time and effort to help their fellow man.

I have donated time and money, and received a tax deduction, every year mind you. Do I do it for the tax deduction, partly.

I realize some will come back and say "not true I give" blah blah but I guess that's the beauty of the anonymous Internet.

Well there is another loophole that can generate more tax revenue and stop those fat cats from receiving billions from tax deductions. Of course that would then dry up most of the money going to churches, Synagogues, Temples and Mosques, so people may not want to do that.

Originally posted by gdeed

Originally posted by tinfoilman

Mine, mine doesn't even have any actual employees anymore. We can't pay them. It's all volunteer and about to be shutdown and abandoned anyway because there's no money. Over 90 percent of the congregation is laid off right now. So, yeah, open up our lock box and smell the dust! lol. Why don't you try it on ash Wednesday and let me get a picture!

As in any business there are always some that go out of business.

Throughout the US there are mega Churches, Synagogues, Temples for every tom dick and harry that calls themselves a religious enterprises, and Mosques galore.

In fact one of the few parts of the economy that is growing in these hard economic times are religious institutions, many of them taking advantage of the real estate bust and buying up property like no ones business.

The major landholders in American are Religious institutions and their numbers are growing fast.

Anyone can create a religious institution here in American and save a fortune in taxes. And many people do, taking advantage of the American tax payer who has to carry that ever increasing tax burden.

So, just get rid of tax exemptions. Everyone pays a flat rate. Why focus on religion? Jealous? Greedy? Come on, there's all kinds of tax exemptions on the books and a simpler tax code with just one flat rate would be a lot better for everyone. No reason to have a religious flame war over it.

Also, I didn't post so you'd feel sorry for my church. Another one can always be started. I was just making the point that there's no money there. There's no money in a lot of the places you're looking. But many of you won't see that until it's too late.

The more people grasp at straws, either for churches or corporate taxes or for the people that want to get rid of illegals. I won't be surprised soon if I see someone on the news chanting for us to throw welfare families into furnaces to get rid of them. Believer or not, don't let desire for creature comforts control you.

The point is very soon, if the economy goes, the greedy will be clawing anywhere they can looking for money only to find out everyone else is just as broke as they are and the money that they do get their hands on won't buy anything.

Remember, it's just fiat paper. It's all printed by TPTB. Then they give it to us, then they take some back and say they don't have enough of what they make on their own printing presses. Ponder that for a couple days. It's only another system of control to limit us and make sure we don't use up all our resources at once.

Also, consider we've begun monetizing our debt. That means we're printing more money to spread out into the economy and to pay off debts. Which means we need more money in circulation. Not less. They're increasing the money supply. So how is it going to help if we raise tax and send that same money that they just printed for us back to the gov?

Remember, the problem right now is deflation. Nobody is buying anything because their credit is tapped out. Reduce their money supply even more and the economy goes boom. Our economy is based on inflation. Even 1 percent deflation, given enough time, will bring the whole system to its knees. You must have inflation and influx of resources with "real" value or the system falls apart because of interest.

When we print money we owe interest on that. But if every time you print money you owe interest on it, you'll always owe more in interest than you actually have currency to pay back. The national debt, budget deficits. All a joke. An illusion. You can't pay back the national debt because you always owe more in than you have money to pay it back with.

And even if you did, our money supply is based on that debt. Pay it all off, and there's no money in existence anymore because we have a debt based system.

We need inflation because the money supply must continually increase to pay off the interest on the money we already printed. Never ending cycle basically. This is why you must have inflation. The more money they print the less it's worth and it was already worthless when we started. When they've talked to you about paying off the debt they fooled you. Can't really be done.

It's all a joke. An illusion. It's just paper and people kill for it. They lose their minds over it. Please don't lose yours. Remember, in the end taxes are about this. You're doing hard work to give pieces of paper back to the government that printed them. Quarrel with your human brothers over that? You must be crazy. Take all the money from me you want Caesar.

But try to remember it's our hard work that really has value to the world. Not the government's gift certificates.

[edit on 22-6-2009 by tinfoilman]

Originally posted by tinfoilman

But try to remember it's our hard work that really has value to the world. Not the government's gift certificates.

Hey I'm not for taxes, but I'm also not for giving preference and multibillion dollar tax cuts and incentives to grow, to multibillion dollar power houses like the Religious institutions that have made a mess of this world we live in.


They don't need our tax dollars to propagate and create more tension around the world. America is a breeding ground for such things, or do you disagree?

if they want to raise money they only have to do one thing..let me explain.. how many bricked up \ boarded up houses or business's do you see in your area ?..
where i live there are hundreds of them and some of them have be like that for nearly 30yrs...
who owns these property's ?. the government should tell them to either repair them or sell them onto someone who will...
this will create work for builders and revenue for the local tax office.. there's thousands of family's who need homes and yet we have thousands of property's left to rot...
if an owner cannot be found or refuses to repair or sell then the property should be seized and all repairs carried out be taken out of the price the government gets for it when sold and the reminder of the money given to the original owner...
all money leaving \ entering a country should be declared for export tax..if not then it should be seized..
if i have to pay import tax of something that costs me £25 pounds how can someone send out \ in £100's of pounds and not pay anything ?...

Originally posted by greeneyedleo
Not all money going into churches goes overseas.

My father is a retired pastor. He was a pastor of a small (not a mega church) for many many years. He worked 24/7 doing the job - trust me, he really did. The money the church received went to his salary - which was not much at all and the running of the church (electricity, water, etc)and various church functions. The church catered to the community a lot and helped run a "kitchen" for the poor. And I could go on with the amount of things done - that require money.

None of the money taken in went to any other organizations (IE The Vatican). It was all funnled back into the church in order for it to function. Not all churchs are rich and nor do all pastor's families live in wealth. My father made about 5 times the amount of money being a private business owner than he did as a pastor.

So before people start slamming all churches - maybe you should pick on individual ones. Because not all churches are crooked. But I agree that many many are - sadly.

With that said, I really am not sure if churches should be taxed or not. We tax churches, we might as well tax charities too - since many many churces function like charities.


[edit on 6/21/2009 by greeneyedleo]

My exhusband was also a PK of a small church in the Mid West. They were dirt poor but the priorities were the church and ministry not making money and profit. Those types of scenarios should NOT be taxed for any reason, and this is where the line gets muddied, in order to set limits for those that are in it for business only the smaller churches would be the first to suffer as they do not have banks backing them and are not subject to any of the funneling from government programs.

This is a good thread, but I have yet seen any good solutions presented which would offer more than an opportunity to either bash or defend.

Originally posted by fatdad
if they want to raise money they only have to do one thing..let me explain.. how many bricked up \ boarded up houses or business's do you see in your area ?..
where i live there are hundreds of them and some of them have be like that for nearly 30yrs...
who owns these property's ?. the government should tell them to either repair them or sell them onto someone who will...
this will create work for builders and revenue for the local tax office.. there's thousands of family's who need homes and yet we have thousands of property's left to rot...
if an owner cannot be found or refuses to repair or sell then the property should be seized and all repairs carried out be taken out of the price the government gets for it when sold and the reminder of the money given to the original owner...
all money leaving \ entering a country should be declared for export tax..if not then it should be seized..

Many properties that sit empty, residential and commercial are properties that have be taken by the cities and counties when the owners stopped paying property taxes on them. Some cities try and sell these properties but the demand for them is not always there.

if i have to pay import tax of something that costs me £25 pounds how can someone send out \ in £100's of pounds and not pay anything ?...

For the most part sending money out of a country depends on the tax structure of that country. The tax man or woman, here in America keeps an eye on “all” money that moves around, except for that of religious institutions. Religious institutions can move any amount of money without any interference or oversight.

Religious institutions can bypass most if not all regulations in Western countries. In fact, a huge part of the money that moves from one country to another is from religious institutions. Granted some of it is for good causes, but a lot of it is not.

Originally posted by antar
My exhusband was also a PK of a small church in the Mid West. They were dirt poor but the priorities were the church and ministry not making money and profit. Those types of scenarios should NOT be taxed for any reason, and this is where the line gets muddied, in order to set limits for those that are in it for business only the smaller churches would be the first to suffer as they do not have banks backing them and are not subject to any of the funneling from government programs.

That is true in many situations, especially small towns. But, just like some millionaires hide their wealth, by living in small houses and driving old cars so that no one knows that they are rich, religious institutions do that too.

Places of worship are not going to go around bragging that they have lots of money because if they did who in their right mind will donate more money to them?

This is a good thread, but I have yet seen any good solutions presented which would offer more than an opportunity to either bash or defend.

Complacency is how countries become easy pickings by tyrants. Most tyrants, the smart ones, try not to make any waves until they have clinched the majority and then it's to late.

Iran let itself be taken over by the clergy thirty some years ago. Now some of the people have waken up in this last election and are facing the beast that rules over them with an iron fist....and we are talking clergy. For those who take the time to look back at history, the worse kind of tyrants have been the clergy. Still true today.

Originally posted by gdeed

Originally posted by tinfoilman

But try to remember it's our hard work that really has value to the world. Not the government's gift certificates.

Hey I'm not for taxes, but I'm also not for giving preference and multibillion dollar tax cuts and incentives to grow, to multibillion dollar power houses like the Religious institutions that have made a mess of this world we live in.


They don't need our tax dollars to propagate and create more tension around the world. America is a breeding ground for such things, or do you disagree?

No I don't disagree. You just don't understand what you're really asking. As I already said I don't mind if the church has to pay taxes. I don't mind at all. But it's not going to help because money doesn't work like you think.

The money isn't worth anything. They're just markers to keep score. You could use sea shells for the same thing.

Look, US money is no different than monopoly money. Imagine you're playing monopoly and I tax everyone in the game 100 percent. Well then they have no markers. They have no way to play the game right? So, what do you have to do? You have to give them the money right back or the game ends.

So, what if I buy up all the property with it instead? Well then I have all the property and they have all the money right? Well then what happens? I just have to turn right back around and sell it back again! It's catch-22. Tax or not tax, you end up right back where you started or the game ends.

That's why I say it's our hard work that has real value. Not the money. What you really want from me is my hard work. To get it you'll just have to give the money right back to me won't you?

So, they can tax us, but then they just have a big room full of paper. What are they going to do with that? Well, the only thing they can do is spend it right? So, what does that mean? That means jobs. That means we end up right back where we started! With pockets full of fake money from the government lol!

That's why I'm not worried about being taxed too much. Because it's impossible. You can't shut down the game. So, you may hate religious institutions, but you can't beat them. If you hurt them you're only hurting yourself and I'll show you why.

You said they were buying real estate right? Well guess what market is collapsing right now? Real estate. Why? Because nobody is buying it. That's why the gov is trying to "open up the credit markets". To buy houses and stuff with. The more your property is worth, the more you're worth and you can buy more stuff. That's how a bubble works.

We're trying to get property values back up because the bubble popped. That's why the government is not taxing churches. That's why they're in fact doing the opposite of what you suggest. Making MORE markers.

Your solution would actually crash the real estate market because you've taken the only people buying property out of the game. Imagine a game of monopoly where nobody bought any property? That's what we don't want right?

The big churches will probably still own everything because the property they're buying up will just become CHEAPER after the crash. It'll be even easier for them to buy it. Go ahead though if you want. I could always use a cheap three bedroom.

But the debt that everyone is worried about? The debt can never be paid off. Do you know how money is made? When people borrow money it's considered demand for the loan. Since there's demand for it they can print it. In other words, simply because I want it, it exists. It has no real value. What has value is the fact that I'm willing to do something for it. But there's interest on it.

Here's a very simplified example. You're the first to borrow $100 from the reserve. You have to pay that back. When you do the money gets taken out of the market. However, you owe interest on it. So, you owe back say $120. Since you're the first person to borrow where are you going to get the extra $20? There's only $100 that was printed.

The only way you can pay back your loan is if someone else comes along and borrows more money. Say $200 dollars. Then they buy something from you for $120. But now the second person owes $240 back! Well there's only $200 left in circulation. The original $120 and the $80 you have left after you bought something. Where do you get the extra $40?

Now you need a third borrower. That's why you need inflation. That's why you want everyone, including churches, to have more markers. Because you have to constantly have someone coming along to borrow more markers to pay off the last guy's debt.

Don't you see? It's a pyramid scheme. You can never pay it back. Almost all of our money is created by borrowing. You can't pay off the loan with another loan because then you will always owe back the last loan you took out. Even if you could pay it back, all the money would be destroyed. What would you play monopoly with? You're worshiping sea shells yo.

The Jewish and Christian people have known how to play this game for thousands of years. That's why they didn't charge each other interest. That's why the religious people own all the stuff. They're the ones that invented the GAME!

It's an illusion. Pay attention to what I said. You're working to give pieces of paper back to TPTB that PRINTED THEM. If they needed them so bad why didn't they just keep what they wanted before giving us our share? It's because they didn't want the sea shells. They wanted our hard work. They wanted us to do something. They know it's just sea shells.

So, go ahead. Take all my sea shells from me and every other religious person, but then good luck trying to sell your house for a million sea shells when nobody has any sea shells lol

[edit on 23-6-2009 by tinfoilman]

We should tax atheists moreso than anyone else.

There should be tax on those who do not donate to churches.

The atheists will complain - but they don't care about the poor that their money would help.

Perhaps atheists are the reason we built all those FEMA camps - they must be kept isolated from the rest of Christian North America.

We can probably hold 4-5 million of them. not enough; but it is a start...

I imagine that atheists would want to work to pay for the expenses they create for staying in the camps, so that should be a mandatory option for them to choose.

Taxing Churches...


priceless

[edit on 23-6-2009 by Exuberant1]

Originally posted by Exuberant1
We should tax atheists moreso than anyone else.

There should be tax on those who do not donate to churches.

The atheists will complain - but they don't care about the poor that their money would help.

Perhaps atheists are the reason we built all those FEMA camps - they must be kept isolated from the rest of Christian North America.

We can probably hold 4-5 million of them. not enough; but it is a start...

I imagine that atheists would want to work to pay for the expenses they create for staying in the camps, so that should be a mandatory option for them to choose.

Taxing Churches...


priceless

[edit on 23-6-2009 by Exuberant1]

As a Christian I have to say this message does not represent me. I may be a jerk on ATS sometimes, and I know that's not good sometimes and I know many of you don't like me. However, in the end I only want to be a team player with my atheists partners in this world.

I hope you all get saved, but I can't do that if you're all in a FEMA camps. Trust me, I'll be the first one to take your place if I can. Even if you don't believe in my God we can believe in each other and get something done.

I repeat. THIS POSTER DOES NOT REPRESENT ME!