Apologize for Slavery? Why?, page 6

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reply posted on 22-6-2009 @ 10:10 PM by Eight

reply to post by soldiermom

You are absolutely correct. and thank you for the clarification. I myself don't like how our society has become in terms of making a race of people fill guilt, and hold them responsible for something they too no part in.

Like I said in my post, The Native American owned us as slaves as well, shouldn't they have to pay also?

Also thank you for your service.

reply posted on 23-6-2009 @ 02:17 PM by FritosBBQTwist

Without killing the Indians - we wouldn't have the USA.
Without slavery - we wouldn't have the African American race in the USA.
Without history - we wouldn't be here.

Why try to change the past...it happened, its done, and we moved on like we should.

reply posted on 23-6-2009 @ 02:42 PM by The Last Man on Earth

I have to say, when it comes to the issue of slavery, I'm really glad I'm English and not American. You guys do have a horrible history, but no worse at all than the Arabs and their enslavement of black Africans, so why exactly are they not apologising too?

reply posted on 23-6-2009 @ 03:11 PM by Dredulous

reply to post by The Last Man on Earth

Please English Dude!!! Dont even try to act all high and mighty, where the hell do you think the idea came from anyway. Why dont you tell everybody what an indentured servant is? Mabee they dont teach history in your increasingly commie country (weve all seen the cameras EVERYWHERE!), but last I checked America exists basically because of a total lack of freedom across the pond!

[edit on 23-6-2009 by Dredulous]

reply posted on 23-6-2009 @ 03:57 PM by The Last Man on Earth

Originally posted by Dredulous
reply to post by The Last Man on Earth

Please English Dude!!! Dont even try to act all high and mighty, where the hell do you think the idea came from anyway. Why dont you tell everybody what an indentured servant is? Mabee they dont teach history in your increasingly commie country (weve all seen the cameras EVERYWHERE!), but last I checked America exists basically because of a total lack of freedom across the pond!

[edit on 23-6-2009 by Dredulous]

Please, grammatically-impaired defensive dude! Don't take it as a personal attack - it wasn't! You'd be surprised about my history knowledge, such as how William the Conqueror outlawed slavery in England in 1102!

The fact is that racial slavery was quite American and not European! Do you think the idea came from the British? Do you want a massive history lecture? I know exactly what an indentured servant is, and what it is not, and what it is not is a life-time contract which also bonds the servant's children too, based primarily on race!

Maybe it is that they do not teach history in your country, because the last time I checked, it was the taxation of the colonists that was the spark for the American Revolution (and probably something to do with the fact that a surprising number of the Founding Fathers were part of a big conspiracy theory), and nothing to do with personal liberties because our country practically invented the concept with the Magna freaking Carta, about 300 years before your continent was even discovered!

How about you actually go back and check your damn history books, and then re-read my post. I was actually defending you by pointing out that, yes, you have a bad history regarding slavery, but you are by no means alone and should not be the only ones apologising, if anyone should be.

reply posted on 23-6-2009 @ 04:14 PM by Dredulous

Alright my remark was a bit overboard in some regards, The British have shown to be some what gravitating towards socialism, but not full blown communism and Im not gonna argue that, most probably recieve a better public education. There is just an unbelievable onslaught of day to day issues going on in this country right now. Having said that, though slavery was made illegal in the time you said, you have to admit there where slaves though they where given nicer names. Not even 1 percent of our population is even related to anyone who owned a slave. England has a smaller land mass and had plenty of its own to "put to work" if you will. Slavery was a very bad decision on the part of a few, and now the millions that had absolutely nothing to do with it have to pay for it daily. Absolutely is there no way that a fake and forced apology would be anything but absurd!!!

reply posted on 23-6-2009 @ 04:21 PM by TheWalkingFox

reply to post by Doc Velocity

The huge difference?

The United States Government was around at the time of - and benefited from - slavery. This is the Government apologizing, not individuals.

Speaking as a Native, I can't seem to remember anyone getting too upset from the assorted times the US Government has apologized to this or that Indian nation. Maybe it's because we're not black.

reply posted on 23-6-2009 @ 04:38 PM by The Last Man on Earth

Originally posted by Dredulous
Alright my remark was a bit overboard in some regards, The British have shown to be some what gravitating towards socialism, but not full blown communism and Im not gonna argue that

Yes they have, and believe me, I don't support it one bit. I hate what Labour, and most prominently Tony Blair and his 'successor' Gordon 'Fonzie' Brown have done to it, but the backlash is beginning. All we need them to do really is impose a poll tax, which is the only thing really guaranteed to get the English into full revolt...

Originally posted by DredulousThere is just an unbelievable onslaught of day to day issues going on in this country right now.

Yes, I probably could have been more sensitive, my apologies.

Originally posted by DredulousHaving said that, though slavery was made illegal in the time you said, you have to admit there where slaves though they where given nicer names.

Well, even serfdom wasn't quite as bad as you might think - I watched a documentary on it by a Monty Python dude (name escapes me atm) who showed all these records from around 1400 - all done by the peasantry. They basically governed themselves with the Shire Reeve (what would become the sheriff) essentially controlling what went on because the nobility were too busy preparing for or going to war.

Originally posted by DredulousNot even 1 percent of our population is even related to anyone who owned a slave.

I have no idea of the truth of this, but you have to understand when you claim to be a democratic republic, where the government is theoretically chosen by the people for the people, the people have to take responsibility when state policy includes racial slavery. Its harsh, but the "tyranny" of the British monarchy doesn't extend to those lengths and hasn't for hundreds of years. And yet, how many Americans have I heard go on about despotism and how we are not democratic? Too many.

Originally posted by Dredulous Slavery was a very bad decision on the part of a few, and now the millions that had absolutely nothing to do with it have to pay for it daily. Absolutely is there no way that a fake and forced apology would be anything but absurd!!!

I agree 110%. They don't need an apology. If they wish to be returned to the conditions that their ancestors were taken by their fellow African countrymen, I'm certain it could be arranged, but there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that escaping the African continent was in every way beneficial to the people taken and is probably enough in the way of reparations itself.

reply posted on 23-6-2009 @ 04:51 PM by Dredulous

[edit on 23-6-2009 by Dredulous]

reply posted on 23-6-2009 @ 04:53 PM by Dredulous

reply to post by The Last Man on Earth

It looks like we are far more like-minded then I though initially, thank you for your very poignant response. There is no arguing the high degree of British linguistic abilities. There are just so many (myself included) who are constantly on edge about all that is going on right now. I wish you the best in your struggle and am happy to now my county is not the only one in this battle against socialism! Again I had no business mindlessly calling you a commie and for that I sincerely apologize.

reply posted on 23-6-2009 @ 05:03 PM by tdogg1

God don’t want you to apologize.
People want to try to pretend that slavery was all about work, just like they think if they tell themselves
The lie that torture was just about waterboarding and “rough “ questioning enough, they can convince the universe.
What slavery was about was murder and rape. Child rape, female rape, male rape, soul rape and spiritual. Especially that practiced in the modern age.
Every single problem in this world today -with the misery of people- can be traced back to that first bastard who thought he could treat another human like his piece of property for his own needs and gratification.
God don’t want you to apologize and neither do Black people. This apology stuff is just more political b.s.
In this country(u.s) people CELEBRATE their genocides and evil with the kind of pride and ferver of fanatics. Nobody expects them to change their nature even if the government did “apologize” on their behalf.
And nobody wants them do.
There’s got to be an accounting and there will be.
Just like always.

reply posted on 23-6-2009 @ 05:56 PM by The Last Man on Earth

Originally posted by Dredulous
reply to post by The Last Man on Earth

It looks like we are far more like-minded then I though initially, thank you for your very poignant response. There is no arguing the high degree of British linguistic abilities. There are just so many (myself included) who are constantly on edge about all that is going on right now. I wish you the best in your struggle and am happy to now my county is not the only one in this battle against socialism! Again I had no business mindlessly calling you a commie and for that I sincerely apologize.

I thank you for the compliments, and there is no need to apologise, its easy to assume everyone on the internet is an idiot because, well, there are just so damn many!

I fear the famed British linguistic abilities are a dying art and I am probably in a minority these days, so we really are relying on the rest of the English-speaking world to carry on baton.

We do live in troubled times, and to be fair I probably do have quite a confrontational method of posting, so all is well.

Either way, an apology to a person you don't know on behalf of someone you never met for an offence you never caused for grievances they did not suffer does seem a tad ridiculous...

reply posted on 23-6-2009 @ 06:29 PM by Dredulous

reply to post by The Last Man on Earth

I only apologised for the whole "commie" thing once I looked into it.
It wont happen again I asure you. Now this cowboy is saddlen' up loaden the six gun and gonna look for some action! (Just thought Id metaphorically reinforce a stereotype, he he)

[edit on 23-6-2009 by Dredulous]

reply posted on 23-6-2009 @ 09:11 PM by Eight

Originally posted by FritosBBQTwist
Without killing the Indians - we wouldn't have the USA.
Without slavery - we wouldn't have the African American race in the USA.
Without history - we wouldn't be here.

Why try to change the past...it happened, its done, and we moved on like we should.

With all do respect, this makes no sense. The Native Americans And the White settlers could have co-existed in peace. Also blacks would have eventually arrived in America like all the other races that have migrated here.

reply posted on 24-6-2009 @ 03:36 PM by Gorman91

reply to post by Eight

I think you are right. I have no idea why we didn't try to absorb the Indians as a part of our nation, rather than exterminate them. The only answer is racism.

I would point to probably 3 hypotheitical waves Africans would have come over by immigration. The first wave would have been during the worst of the European colonization, the second wave would have been after they left and things went bad again, and the third time would probably about 10 years from now as Africa stabilizes into a continental union and Globablization calls for them to work here and we work there.

In theory, it would be a lot better this way. They would have been naturally accepted by the people just like the Irish and Italians. One of the major problems with African racism is because they were slaves. And because of this, people naturally look down upon them sometimes as lesser, thus leading to racism. Sad really

I sometimes think, what if the Brits enslaved the Irish instead, and sold them to America? What kind of world would that be? Or perhaps a world where the French sold North African Arabs to America, or a world where the Russians sold Mongolians and Siberians to America. What difference would this do? Would we look at an America where Al Shaprton lead the NRA, and and Conan Obrien lead the NAAIP?(I for Irish, of corse). What of a world where Sean Hannity was for affirmative action, and Obama was a leading Conservative speaker?

That, right there, is a premise of a great speculative world.

I guess this all relates to apologizing in that why should we apologize for what people who are long gone dead did? Anglo Saxons make up 10% of the US. Why should we apologize when virtually all white people are descendant of immigrants who, themselves, were treated as slaves in the North at some point in time.

If you really stop to think, you realize that this apology is purely a measure of circumstance. Who's at fault when a random chance picked blacks to be slaves? There was just as much probability that people would enslave the Irish, or the Arabs, or anyone else. The first slaves were not even viewed as less. That came as 2nd generation land owners looked down upon their slaves. Under this premise, why can't all of Europe's throwns apologize for essentially doing the same exact thing to the peasants in the middle ages?

And then we get into other things. America today is not the America of 1865. It is a different nation. Should Italy apologize to Greece because Rome enslaved them? Should Egypt apologize to all who their ancestors enslaved? Should the descendants of the leaders of Mali and other African nations apologize for treating salt and gold traders as essentially slaves.

What makes these people different? Better yet, why are the descendant who are not slaves feel owed an apology from the descendant of those who no longer owe slaves?

I believe it's in the UN documents somewhere, but is it not written that no man shall be blamed for the actions of his ancestors? Well? Why are we doing this than?

Food for thought. Just my opinion.

reply posted on 4-7-2009 @ 05:43 PM by suzque66

I found this interesting interview

Michael Hoffman:

www.youtube.com...