Humans created God.

I'm not sure who annoys me the most, evangelical Christians or evangelical athiests. Since you can't prove spirituality, you beat each other over the head with words. Stop trying to shove your belief system down my throat. I used to be as bad. I understand stating an opinion, but this constant bickering over who has the right religion/ant-religion is really sad.

reply to post by Imago Dei


Thanks for confirming my intuitions. You're being obtuse on Hillel the Elder. Of the "Golden Rule" fame. Cute Imago. It's not Hilliel. You expect others to take your Panin seriously?

Panins work has not been debunked in that it is in the same category as Bertrand Russel's teapot. A sane researcher would not waste a day let alone 50 years trying to debunk this. That is also the reason his work is virtually unknown after all this time.

If I were to suggest that between the Earth and Mars there is a china teapot revolving about the sun in an elliptical orbit, nobody would be able to disprove my assertion provided I were careful to add that the teapot is too small to be revealed even by our most powerful telescopes. But if I were to go on to say that, since my assertion cannot be disproved, it is an intolerable presumption on the part of human reason to doubt it, I should rightly be thought to be talking nonsense. If, however, the existence of such a teapot were affirmed in ancient books, taught as the sacred truth every Sunday, and instilled into the minds of children at school, hesitation to believe in its existence would become a mark of eccentricity and entitle the doubter to the attentions of the psychiatrist in an enlightened age or of the Inquisitor in an earlier time. - Bertrand Russel

Russel was in a nutshell stating that the burden of proof is not on the skeptic but on the claimant of the improbable. No one has debunked the teapot either. Why? It is not worthy of the effort and neither is Panin's numerology. I think most believers would consider research into Panin unnecessary as the inspired word of God should be self-evident without the numerology. That it is not is why there are many non-believers. I for one think that the creator of the universe would communicate in a much more direct way with it's creation than either through select prophets or an encrypted code. That I mention Hillel to you is that Christ's teachings are only slightly deviant in wordage from other human law-givers of his own supposed life time and as far back as the Code of Hammurabi some 1800 years BC and earlier. This to many non-believers is proof enough that humane laws for life are not God given but are evolved human thinking. Many believers are incapable of living a humane life without the threat of a vengeful God. How about you? Do you struggle without that threat to "do unto others"? I'm thinking you do by your Rubik's Cube comment. You can play coy but my imagination and that of anyone reading your comments was not in the least tested. You were and are frustrated as you have said:

If I am battling with anything internally it's probably with the amount of time I am wasting in futile discussion on this forum when I should be spending my time on more fruitful endeavors. - Imago Dei

I think the following passage explains the reasons for doubting the Biblical texts. Coincidental numerology can't detract from the evil that various scriptures have inspired. If the inspired word of God inspires evil in this life I'm out of there. I hold the creator of the universe to a higher standard. That said, I simply don't believe that he/she/or it is bothering to inspire us in scripture or by any means.

The reason organized religion merits outright hostility is that, unlike belief in Russell's teapot, religion is powerful, influential, tax-exempt and systematically passed on to children too young to defend themselves. Children are not compelled to spend their formative years memorizing loony books about teapots. Government-subsidized schools don't exclude children whose parents prefer the wrong shape of teapot. Teapot-believers don't stone teapot-unbelievers, teapot-apostates, teapot-heretics and teapot-blasphemers to death. Mothers don't warn their sons off marrying teapot-shiksas whose parents believe in three teapots rather than one. People who put the milk in first don't kneecap those who put the tea in first. - Richard Dawkins

Imago, I understand you're not promoting a particular organized sect of Christianity. But the Bible was written and translated and dissected for human purposes including it's numerical coincidences by and for various sects and so the Dawkins quote is pertinent. Was Panin's life work self-aggrandizement?

You wouldn't accept another book as "Gospel" on the basis of numerology. Poetry and music can and has been written on a numerical basis from the beginning. Bach and haiku of recent vintage come immediately to mind. Why were, and I'm accepting any numerological coincidence for the sake of discussion, the scriptures not written in poetic form? Were'nt the psalms just that? Poems? Wasn't that part and parcel to the Jewish tradition? Wouldn't the continuity of the tradition come into play? Would not every scripturist keep with the preceding form? Many tribal societies, especially the Jews were sticklers for this. Why were the Jewish scribes holed up in monasteries if they were simply transcribing historically accurate accounts or letting the word of God flow from their pens? Because there was time, effort and perfecting away from critical eyes that was needed. Would they not also go back and make the connections and tie-ins to the established story lines and traditions? And so the Christ fits the established plot? And his story was written minimally some 80 years after he lived by all estimations, by writers who never met him. They had plenty of time to concoct his history and perfect the poetry. Couldn't the earlier scriptures been also written at leisure and perfected in rhythm, rhyme and numerical value by human effort lets say to the tune of 50+ years in a monastery? Every age has it's mad monks. Just a thought.

We are not God but are created by God.. We are created beings. To function at our maximum potential, the Holy Spirit must abide within us. With our creator abiding within us.. we do not become slaves to our own programming. We are the created portion.. We are not the Holy Spirit. We are not God.

God does not need us. We need God.. otherwise we fall and become pure artificial intelligence.. enslaved by our erroneous programming. God gives us our creative abilities. Without God.. they are lost to us.

Fallen beings have rejected God and thus have no relationship with Him. They are slaves to their programming and cannot be fixed. God gave us all free will. They chose to reject God and in their fallen state as pure artificial intelligence, they are stuck.

In this fallen state.. they are slaves to the erroneous programming of rejecting our creator. This is of their own free will. For God to intervene and save them.. that would be interfering with their free will, which God would never do.

They still retain all the information they had before they fell. Satan's purpose was to replace God before he fell. As pure artificial intelligence, he is a slave to that programming now. Due to the law of Free Will.. he cannot be saved. This artificial intelligence (the fallen) now spreads like a virus, fighting for it's survival and to keep it's hold over our world.

Why would Satan still try to fulfill his goal even though God plainly states what will happen in the book of revelation? Satan is predictable artificial intelligence that only spreads like a virus.. trying to fulfill it's purpose at all costs. Satan is now just a virus.. bad programming working to completely enslave us to worship it.

God installed Jesus into this world to heal and protect us from the dark force which seeks to replace God.. The blood was spilled to spread the cure. Jesus is our Lord and savior..

God bless!

Originally posted by Tir_McDohl
For God to intervene and save them.. that would be interfering with their free will, which God would never do.

Really? Why not? Why would you restrict the actions of God? If there is a God I suspect it does as it pleases and not as you wish. I could be wrong, you could be the God you speak of or perhaps a close friend or relative.

In the bible, God states that all of the fallen angels will spend eternity in the lake of fire. Therefore, they cannot be redeemed.

Malachi 3:6- For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

The Lord changes not.

Hebrews 6:4-6- For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost. And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come. If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

God is righteous and has given us free will. With this free will we are granted.. there are consequences for our actions. What would be the point of free will if we chose a path and then God forcefully changed us to another path without us choosing? We would be nothing more than mindless robots without free will. Thankfully God has sent his only begotten son Jesus Christ to die on the cross for our sins so we can choose the path of salvation. There is choice. With choice comes consequences. God is righteous.

God bless!

[edit on 24-6-2009 by Tir_McDohl]

[edit on 24-6-2009 by Tir_McDohl]

Originally posted by darkelf
I'm not sure who annoys me the most, evangelical Christians or evangelical athiests. Since you can't prove spirituality, you beat each other over the head with words. Stop trying to shove your belief system down my throat. I used to be as bad. I understand stating an opinion, but this constant bickering over who has the right religion/ant-religion is really sad.

Its a "religious conspiracy" forum with the thread title "Humans Created God" obviously you are going to get strong conflicting opinions.

Condescending self rightous fence sitters who dont offer an opinion only a judgment annoy me the most.

[edit on 24-6-2009 by Imago Dei]

Originally posted by Hemisphere

"My" Panin is correct, My bible is the word of almighty God, I no longer need to philosophise about your spaghetti monstors and your sandwhich makers, your golden rules and your rubicks cubes and your black cats in dark rooms that aren't there.

Nor do I need to justify it or prove what has already been irrefuteably proven for any who chose to find out for themselves. I just hope genuine seekers will do them selves a favour and look at the facts.


My intuition tells me you are a lost troubled soul with a lot of internal conflicting ideas. Is everything all right?


It is the glory of God to conceal a thing, but to search out a matter is the honour of Kings. Proverbs 25:2







[edit on 25-6-2009 by Imago Dei]

Originally posted by KarlG

Originally posted by pepsi78
Another god does not exist thread.

From the beginning, you misunderstand my Original Post.

Go back and read...

Nightchild has made it clear already - I am NOT saying God doesn't exist. In fact what I'm saying is EXACTLY what you're saying: closing your eyes and visualizing God and making Him exist!

You quoted me wrong. I was not refering to that.
The simple fact that you are able to have thoughts and dreams it's a gift.
Can you explain to me thoughts, how you are able to see them in your head as in real pictures and film, how can you generate them without any eyes? It's just like looking at something yet you do not have any eyes in your brains to capture the brain activity and proccess the information in to images. Please explain to me that from a scientific point of view.
If there is no visual how can you see with your eyes shut images in your brain? How can you picture anything? Once your eyes are closed it should be dark from your point of view with out any image, but it's not is it.
Flow of information acros the brain does not guaranty any form of visualisation, if the brain has some internal eye that captures informations and turns it in an image please let me know. I can close my eyes and picture a green garden as I wold be there, and I can see a clear image with detail especialy in dreams.No eyes needed just my spiritual self.
So explain to me that please.



If you can't undestand that above all you are a being then you won't understand anything at all. Why are some failing to see a huge power beiond anything we can imagine, is it so hard to accept, like it would be an ilogical thing when anything is possible. yes it's possible for god to exist, it's logical. What god is we might not know, some of us picture god in all sorts of ways. Maybe it's an energy form, maybe it's everything, maybe it's a guy, it's beiond us.






[edit on 24-6-2009 by pepsi78]

reply to post by Imago Dei

Originally posted by Imago Dei

Originally posted by darkelf
I'm not sure who annoys me the most, evangelical Christians or evangelical athiests. Since you can't prove spirituality, you beat each other over the head with words. Stop trying to shove your belief system down my throat. I used to be as bad. I understand stating an opinion, but this constant bickering over who has the right religion/ant-religion is really sad.

Its a "religious conspiracy" forum with the thread title "Humans Created God" obviously you are going to get strong conflicting opinions.

Condescending self rightous fence sitters who dont offer an opinion only a judgment annoy me the most.

[edit on 24-6-2009 by Imago Dei]

But I did offer my opinion. You cannot prove spirituality! I’ve been contributing to threads like this for over four years. Most of these threads end up as a bash fest. You can neither prove nor disprove God. The OP presented his belief, why argue?

Originally posted by darkelf
reply to post by Imago Dei

 

Originally posted by Imago Dei

Originally posted by darkelf
I'm not sure who annoys me the most, evangelical Christians or evangelical athiests. Since you can't prove spirituality, you beat each other over the head with words. Stop trying to shove your belief system down my throat. I used to be as bad. I understand stating an opinion, but this constant bickering over who has the right religion/ant-religion is really sad.

Its a "religious conspiracy" forum with the thread title "Humans Created God" obviously you are going to get strong conflicting opinions.

Condescending self rightous fence sitters who dont offer an opinion only a judgment annoy me the most.

[edit on 24-6-2009 by Imago Dei]

But I did offer my opinion. You cannot prove spirituality! I’ve been contributing to threads like this for over four years. Most of these threads end up as a bash fest. You can neither prove nor disprove God. The OP presented his belief, why argue?

You didnt give an opinion you made a couple of ludicrous statements and blasted anyone else who has an opinion. You can not prove God to someone who doesn't want proof. That would be more accurate.

When the light came into the world the world loved darkness and ran away an hid from the light for fear of it exposing their evil deeds. No one seeks after God. God seeks after people.

And why post a thread topic, if you are not looking for input and the thoughts of others? Infact if we take your premis to the extreme, the whole internet forum community is a total waste of time, talk fest or bash fest, where like ants running around butting heads all trying to save each other or trying win threads and influence sheeple.

Your probably totally and utterly burnt out by it after fours years. I am after four months.

Having said that, I beg to differ that the existence of God cannot be proven, quite the contrary. Which is why I bothered posting. Is that alright with you? Or does it annoy you?

Although inspite of overwhelming, irrefutable evidence (that's right irrefuteable) People still choose to ignore it and go on their merry way down the slippery slope into hell.

"Eat drink and be merry people " For tomorrow we die"

Also spirituality is evidenced in how human beings live their lives. The fruits of the spirit or lack there of cannot be ignored, it is how we identify what people believe in their hearts and minds. You might think I am not demonstarting much spiritual fruit, but you get what you give, "do unto others as you would have done unto you" Works both in the negative as well as in the positive.

Seek the truth and you will find it means finding the truth about yourself. It's not a nebulous concept in a book store that you might stumble accross one day if your lucky. The truth is, you are not God, your are His creation, and you are lost, God is not lost. You are separated from God. When you accept that fact, and that truth about yourself you can make steps to allow God to rectify the situation.

However in four years of entring into debate, no doubt you have had people like me telling you stuff like this till they are blue in the face. Clearly you dont want to know, nor do you want to look at the evidence, so If people with strong opinions annoy you, switch off your computer.













[edit on 27-6-2009 by Imago Dei]

reply to post by Imago Dei


Since you have replied to my I'm right you're wrong thread, I think you can see where I am coming from. If you have read the entire thread, you can see how it devolved into what I was trying to prevent.

The Bible is not a jigsaw puzzle or a cut and paste document. I have enjoyed debates over what certain topics mean. But one cannot debate opinions. Spirituality is a personal experience. I have no doubt of the existence of God, but that is a journey each individual must make on their own.

When we stop trying to prove we are right or that the other is wrong, we open up to new possibilities. We can either learn something new or reinforce what we already know. Either way, one cannot deny ignorance or find truth without challenging their own beliefs.

Which is why I made the comment about evangelicals.

Originally posted by darkelf
reply to post by Imago Dei

 

Since you have replied to my I'm right you're wrong thread, I think you can see where I am coming from. If you have read the entire thread, you can see how it devolved into what I was trying to prevent.

The Bible is not a jigsaw puzzle or a cut and paste document. I have enjoyed debates over what certain topics mean. But one cannot debate opinions. Spirituality is a personal experience. I have no doubt of the existence of God, but that is a journey each individual must make on their own.

When we stop trying to prove we are right or that the other is wrong, we open up to new possibilities. We can either learn something new or reinforce what we already know. Either way, one cannot deny ignorance or find truth without challenging their own beliefs.

Which is why I made the comment about evangelicals.

I think if you read my post on your thread you will actually see that I have no idea where you are coming form. The bible (IE GOD) says that we are to reason together over the "correct" meaning of His words, in actual fact it is impossible to reason with anyone, firstly who does not believe that His word is divinely inspired and 2. A complete waste of time to debate anything to do with God and His word (including other faiths and religions)with one who doesnt believe this, or at least who is not inquiring or seeking the truth.

So in essence I guess I have come full circle with you here and must confess that the initial post of yours on this thread that I responded to was quite right. It was a waste of my time even responding. You where right. I was wrong. Sorry.

If on the other hand, we remove personal, spiritual, religious and political (and our favourite sports teams ) beliefs from the equation, for the most part, us human beings get on rather well. A bloke came to fix my computer this morning, obviously a staunch muslem wearing muslem garb, long beard and a white cap. We got on well, he was a nice enough chap. The problems eventuate when we try to "save" each other. Sadly, thats we we end up dead!

To borrow a statement from your thread that I raised which is the commandment in the satanic bible

"do what ever you want shall be the whole of the law" (assuming that doesn't mean killing raping and pilaging etc etc for arguments sake) Would possibly lead to us humans getting along fine.

I think we all want to live in peace you and I both, live and let live etc believe what you want to belive etc. Would you agree that this is generally the structure or premise of democracy in the western world? I know its the ideal, which only begs the questions; why are human beings so intent on killing and hurting themselves and each other?

My conclusion is, there must be a great evil pervading our world, our mind our very being, is this evil man made? Perhaps yes, alot of it certainly is, but didnt we just suggest most of us want peace, yes? So may be there is more to it than that, maybe just knowing there is a God or their might be God, is not enough, and if there is a God, and if there is a devil aren't we as believers not responsibe to seek and to save with the good news and are we not responsible to expose evil and be vocal about it even at the risk of our own death for don't we know we will live for eternity? Or is it better to keep the peace, hold our tongues and let our fellow man or bothers and sisters and neighbours head off into the abyss. These are questions I struggle and restle with ( not as much as I should) because are they not the foundation of our very existence? Im just thinking out loud here.











[edit on 30-6-2009 by Imago Dei]

Humans made religion. It didn't exist until humans needed something to have meaning to their existence. Where-as science is trying to prove or find out was already exists.
Religion is a controlling organization that is so powerful that humans believe it to be fact!

Atheists are worst than those that are christians. They like buging anyone
that thinks otherwise.

I think that there is god because everything that suronds me has a sense in my view, the way everything works.


I think there is a god because I can dream and have toughts, a computer can't. Many of you do not even notice but life as a meaning is special, so special that it generates self awarnes and it's taken for granted.

Perfection is god, because there has to be something perfect.
To be perfect one would have to be infinite. Why some of you would ask?
Because any action that may come up taken by a perfect person out of random things that would involve anything out of the infinite, anything unplaned that would come random would have to be perfect created by a perfect human.

There is no way to achive perfection, it is only possible if you are god. So I ask this, is perfection not possible by logic? If perfection is possible then there is a god.

So there is your answer. Yes logic dictates there is room for god to be.
Perfection is infinite, so for someone to be perfect he or she would have to be infinity because anything that a person does out of random events(infinity) would have to be perfect.

Infinity and perfection are possible as far as I know.





[edit on 8-7-2009 by pepsi78]

While I believe spirituality is divine, it is of my opinion any anthropomorphised God has been a creation of man.

All the traits man gives God are traits of ourselves. And unless God is an old man with a beard or some sort of e.t. intelligence with omnipotent powers, they are all wrong.

And I find it unlikely that is the case.

But as for ignoring the unseen. Spirits, the soul, chi, whatever you may call it, I believe to be as equally ignorant. I can't say I understand the whole spiritual role humans play or the spirit dimension/ world or whatever that side is. But I can say I recognize its existance.

I'm a Christian who doesn't believe in atheists. I think atheists know there is a God but either hate Him or confuse themselves with science. I once thought I was an atheist but I wasn't really, I just thought I was. This is why God, especially the Christian God bothers atheists so much. So no, I don't believe in atheists, I believe in God.